If there is no keyhole to pick then it is probably marginally more secure, but if a burglar wants to get into your home then no door lock is going to stop them. They could just break it or break your windows.
Are smart door locks more or less secure than traditional door locks?
Submitted 9 months ago by cloudless@feddit.uk to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/6f04a148-ebc6-4e3b-a1d7-f653ae8b38c6.jpeg
Comments
Izzy@lemmy.world 9 months ago
stevehobbes@lemm.ee 9 months ago
This is it. The weakest part of most doors is the door. A sledge hammer will go through a door or window regardless of the lock.
Smart locks are way more convenient and the ability to grant timed access and unique access controls probably makes them more secure.
NevermindNoMind@lemmy.world 9 months ago
They could just break it or break your windows.
This is why you need backup measures. For example, if they break in through my windows, they’ll be foiled by the micromachines I placed strategically on the floor. If they break through the door, they’ll have to contend with the blowtorch I have rigged just inside the entryway. Always remember, “this is my house, I have to defend it.”
son_named_bort@lemmy.world 9 months ago
What if you’re in another city that your uncle happens to live in and his house is being renovated, would you still be able to defend it?
settoloki@lemmy.one 9 months ago
If they manage to get past that, you should attach a paint can to some rope and have it rigged to swing towards them if they are coming up the stairs.
mojo@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Nah, that’s why I run linux
Tankaus@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Bazinga.
silentdon@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I had a metal door and an iron gate inside with shitty locks. Burglers broke the locks and got in.
I replaced the door and got great locks. They broke the gate right out of the wall and got in.
If someone wants to get in, they will.
kratoz29@lemm.ee 9 months ago
We have steel doors and protection metal bars in the windows in LATAM (yep, our houses are little fortress) and even that would not stop the most dedicated burglars…
You know, I feel cameras help even more, these scums get anxiety when they see cameras lol.
agent_flounder@lemmy.one 9 months ago
We have steel doors and protection metal bars in the windows in LATAM
Sounds a lot like Tucson…
betwixthewires@lemmy.basedcount.com 9 months ago
Anything with added complexity will have a larger attack surface and more failure modes.
cerevant@lemm.ee 9 months ago
I have to disagree - this is more like the gate that blocks the sidewalk that you can get around by walking on the grass. The mechanical locks that these come with are significantly weaker, more common and better understood by thieves, that they wouldn’t bother even trying to figure out how to hack the smart lock.
moody@lemmings.world 9 months ago
That doesn’t invalidate their point. The electronic lock is just an additional potential point of failure with no added security. In addition to people who can pick or break the key lock, now there is an additional type of person who can break in: the kind that knows how to bypass electronic locks.
agent_flounder@lemmy.one 9 months ago
Same concept but why pick a lock when you can break a window or sliding glass door?
In other words… The attack surface is indeed larger for smart lock than dumb lock – more ways to attack – but in practice it matters little because existing home attack surface is easily breached.
cloudless@feddit.uk 9 months ago
What would you recommend?
slazer2au@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Honestly, the lock is one of the last things to worry about. If you have an outward opening door get security pins for your hinges.
Check out one of m.youtube.com/@DeviantOllam talk on door security and worry less about the lock and more about the door fixture. His hour long conference talks to through how a door is insecure how it can be exploited and what you can do to prevent it from happening.
OberonSwanson@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Based on the context, I think they would suggest going with the old school lock with a deadbolt. The more complex a device is, the more likely it is to have multiple vectors of attack.
zxqwas@lemmy.world 9 months ago
They have a regular backup cylinder that has all the vulnerabilities of a regular lock.
On top of that they have a bunch of electronics that can be vulnerable.
I can’t see how it would be possible for them to be more secure unless you’re someone who leaves their keys around a lot and a smart lock would let you not have a key on you.
lud@lemm.ee 9 months ago
They don’t have to have a backup cylinder. The most common kind (Yale doorman) where I live doesn’t have one. If the Internal battery goes out you can plug in a 9V battery from the outside to power it.
Tnaeriv@sopuli.xyz 9 months ago
Even worse, quite often those backup locks are very cheap
booly@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Things might be different by now, but when I was researching this I decided on the Yale x Nest.
It’s more secure than a keyed lock in the following ways:
- Can’t be picked (no physical keyhole).
- Codes can be revoked or time-gated (for example, you can set the dog walker’s code to work only at the time of day they’re expected to come by).
- Guest codes can be set to provide real-time notifications when used.
- The lock keeps a detailed log of every time it’s used.
- The lock can be set to automatically lock the door after a certain amount of time.
It’s less secure than a physical traditional lock in the following ways:
- Compromise of a keycode isn’t as obvious as losing a key, so you might not change a compromised keycode the same way you might change a lost key.
- People can theoretically see a code being punched in, or intercept compromised communications to use it.
- Compromised app or login could be used to assign new codes or remotely unlock
It’s basically the same level of security in the following ways:
- The deadbolt can still be defeated with the same physical weaknesses that a typical deadbolt has: blunt force, cutting with a saw, etc.
- The windows and doors are probably just generally weak around your house, to where a determined burglar can get in no matter what lock you use.
- Works like normal without power or network connection (just can’t be remotely unlocked or reprogrammed to add/revoke codes if not online)
Overall, I’d say it’s more secure against real-world risk, where the weakest link tends to be the people you share your keys with.
T156@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Some smart locks are vulnerable to being manipulated with a magnet, if they’re poorly designed, since someone can just manipulate the motor from outside.
booly@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
I’ve seen it for keypads that have to send a signal to an actuator located elsewhere, but I think the typical in-door deadbolt (where the keypad is mere millimeters from the motor itself) wouldn’t have the form factor leaving the connection as exposed to a magnet inducing a current that would actually actuate the motor.
Most of LPL’s videos on smart locks just defeat the mechanical backup cylinder, anyway. I’d love to see him take on the specific Yale x Nest model I have, though.
zik@lemmy.world 9 months ago
But since smart locks generally have a traditional mechanical lock for backup, aren’t they inherently always less secure than a traditional lock since you can find the weakest link in either of the two mechanisms?
Bongles@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Usually yes, but this person is saying theirs does not have a physical keyhole.
rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 9 months ago
Thieves don’t pick locks or hack them. You mostly want to protect against brute force.
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world 9 months ago
A lock is never weaker than a window. If someone wants in your house, there are ways that don’t have anything to do with your locks. Locks of any quality largely work by deterrence, rather than actual pickability or durability. If I have to literally break something to get in, I’m drawing attention to myself and immediately putting a count down on my robbery before a cop shows up or witnesses get a better look at me, my vehicle, etc. So it’s already not worth it for most petty thieves.
variants@possumpat.io 9 months ago
when some thieves broke into my neighbors house they first rang the door bell a few times to make sure no one was home, after that they hopped the fence and went window to window until they found one that was unlocked and went in that way
TheIllustrativeMan@lemmy.world 9 months ago
A broken window is clear indication of theft for insurance purposes. If your lock gets picked, you might be fucked depending on how your policy is written.
UPGRAYEDD@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I worked for a company that desighed home security devices for a few years… Pretty much everyone i talked to agreed there is only 1 actually good security device that is an effective deterrent. Its called “Large Scar Dog”. Every other device is there just to notify you that all your shit is soon to be or already gone
variants@possumpat.io 9 months ago
Ive always wondered what happens if the battery dies, do you still need to carry a key in case that happens
c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Most dogs are fine if you just carry treats and act polite. I’ve seen plenty of dogs just let intruders in because they were kind to them.
fubo@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Against what sort of attack? Who’s the attacker? What capabilities do they have? What do they want?
There’s a saying, “locks are to keep your friends out.” If someone really means you harm, a lock is not going to keep them out: they can smash a window, break down the door, or hit you with a rubber hose until you give them your keys or passwords. This applies no matter what kind of lock you have.
But a lock represents a social barrier: everyone knows that trying to defeat someone else’s lock is a hostile act. The law recognizes this in many places: breaking-and-entering is a more severe crime than trespassing.
A lock may slow down an attacker. It may redirect an attacker to go after your neighbor’s stuff instead of your stuff — but not if everyone has locks.
A password lock has some advantages over a key lock. You don’t have to issue physical keys to everyone you want to allow in. Many allow you to create and revoke passwords separately — so you can grant a friend access to your house while you’re away, and then revoke it when they no longer need it.
However, a password lock also has some disadvantages. If you give a password to one person, that person can easily give it to everyone. That’s a lot harder with a physical key, because they’d have to go make a lot of copies of that key — which, if nothing else, costs money and time.
A computerized lock can create an audit trail: it can record when it was opened, and even which credentials (passwords, keys, …) were used to unlock it.
Any lock can have vulnerabilities — most common key locks can be picked; computerized locks can be attacked through their computer hardware or software.
Late2TheParty@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Thanks for reminding me of this XKCD gem!
fubo@lemmy.world 9 months ago
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis
In cryptography, rubber-hose cryptanalysis is a euphemism for the extraction of cryptographic secrets (e.g. the password to an encrypted file) from a person by coercion or torture—such as beating that person with a rubber hose, hence the name—in contrast to a mathematical or technical cryptanalytic attack.
HidingCat@kbin.social 9 months ago
Beat me to it! Locks are just but one part of securing your home.
cloudless@feddit.uk 9 months ago
It is for a house in a residential area, and I don’t keep a lot of valuables in the house. I wish I knew who the attacker would be, so I can catch them with pre-crime.
fubo@lemmy.world 9 months ago
If you’re concerned about burglars, one problem is that if they decide to hit your house, they can just break a window.
Where I live, burglars often hit cars rather than houses; and they’re very willing to break windows to get in, especially if they see something valuable in the car. They spend no time trying to defeat the locks — hell, some don’t even check if the car is locked.
A lot of the loss due to burglary is the damage the burglar does on the way in, rather than the value of the things stolen. And upgrading locks does nothing to reduce this.
Maybe instead of upgrading your locks, you might be better off spending the same amount of money upgrading your insurance?
dogslayeggs@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I love my August smart lock. It auto-unlocks my door when I get home, so I never need keys or to reach for my phone. It also has a key pad to unlock if I dont have my phone. It has alerts and reports status on an app. I can unlock or lock the door remotely for people to check in on things for me while Im away.
Yes, it has issues and eats batteries, but its so convenient.
agent_flounder@lemmy.one 9 months ago
If you’re not in infosec you should be. (Source: am in infosec)
fubo@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Oh, I did that for a while. 2001 was a mess of a year … right after the planes started flying again after 9/11, the Nimda worm came out.
Treczoks@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Ask the lockpicking lawyer. He regularly opens them on YouTube. On the other hand, he opens about anything. But those “smart” locks usually have additional weaknesses.
Zikeji@programming.dev 9 months ago
It’s why I went with an inside only smart lock (I have an August that’s been running like a champ for half a decade). A door lock is a deterrent in the first place, and I don’t expect it to ever stop someone sufficiently motivated. Hell, I broke through an exterior door by accident when I was a young teen - haven’t trusted them since.
However, if some cheat came out (like some of LPL’s “just hold a powerful magnet” locks) I’d rather not have an obvious smart lock that can be picked out from the street.
TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub 9 months ago
Well, this is cool. Thanks!
Hildegarde@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Every one of the locks pictured have a traditional lock as a backup. Therefore, none of those smartlocks could ever be more secure. Even if the smart parts were 100% flawless, the lock will have all the weaknesses of a traditional door lock because one is included as a backup.
If you were to spend an equal cost on a lock, you will get more security from the traditional lock because all the budget can be spent on the lock instead of split between the lock and the electronics.
But how valuable is the security of the lock anyway? The weakest part of your home is the windows. If someone wanted to break into your house they can break your windows and climb through regardless what lock you have on the front door.
fr_mg@lemmy.world 9 months ago
There is a movie from 1992 with Robert Redford, “Sneakers”. It is about a team of hackers, in a scene they face a door with an unexpected smart lock and find the right strategy, just kick the f* door.
TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub 9 months ago
But how valuable is the security of the lock anyway? The weakest part of your home is the windows. If someone wanted to break into your house they can break your windows and climb through regardless what lock you have on the front door.
Not so much in many apartments.
False@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Generally not allowed to change the locks in an apartment anyways
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 9 months ago
What are you talking about? There are two pictured that are a keypad and a 9-volt battery terminal.
HubertManne@kbin.social 9 months ago
A smart lock with a keyhole is never going to be more secure than a standard key lock as it is a standard key lock. Now that being said if the door will let you know every time its opened you could possibly head something off
TreeGhost@lemm.ee 9 months ago
I got a smart lock after realizing that we would simply forget to lock the front door sometimes since we typically leave via the garage. It’s connected to Home Assistant and now will lock automatically if no one is home.
Technically, I know that a smart lock is less secure, but in most real world scenarios, knowing that the lock will be locked when we are not home, on top of being notified if it becomes unlocked, I’d argue that it’s more secure now than when I had a dumb lock.
HubertManne@kbin.social 9 months ago
I know it sounds crazy but what I would really like is a smart lock built into the wall and wired up to electric and the bolt would go into a hollow in the door. Sorta reverse of a standard door lock. Problem is since its not standard it would be way more expensive. Its like something I would do if I was rich enough for money to not be an issue.
Hazdaz@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Far too many smart locks that are connected to a deadbolt use an actuator which can be tripped with a powerful magnet. No way would I trust them.
The LPL would have had to test them for me to trust them.
DeletesItLater@lemmy.world 9 months ago
What I have already works. I added a few security pins and my door will likely be broken before someone picks it. Insurance company will understand if I someone broke something to get in, which is why I’m not entirely made at kwikset.
Why add more points of potential failure? I’m more concerned someone can get in without me knowing they had.
afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I haven’t done a breakdown on smartlocks. I do work with machine locks, you know for safeties. We can make them pretty freaken hard to bypass, but I can.
YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world 9 months ago
A dog with a loud bark will always be more effective than any lock or security system. My border collie is a super lovable dog but her bark is designed to scare off wolves. It’s sounds mean and scary. Truly one whose bark is worse than the bite. She hasn’t ever bit a human but she pinned a pit bull that challenged her and gave him a bite to remember.
over_clox@lemmy.world 9 months ago
My late father would say “A lock only keeps an honest man honest”.
If a criminal really wants to break in, they’ll find a way…
belzebubb@lemmus.org 9 months ago
I know smartlocks have had their share of vulerabilities. I remember 3 or 4 years ago hearing about things such as sending codes un-encrypted over wifi or basing their security on MAC addresses alone. Both are practically a ‘key on top of the doormat’ travesty. THis may have got better. I think the issue is that manufacturers jump at a market without having much knowledge of IT security. Similar to whats happening with the connectivity of cars. The fact that most peeps in IT security(ok, they might lean towards the paranoid) will not have a smart lock on their house is enough for me for the time being.
thann@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Yeah, the security of the commercial smart locks is a disaster, so I had to program my own lol
Matriks404@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Any person that specializes in IT will know that most of these smart locks/security measures are bullshit and traditional methods are much better.
MooseBoys@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Definitely less secure, but way more convenient. Security for residential door locks doesn’t really matter that much though; thieves are unlikely to try to pick your lock or use some smart-device exploit to access your home - they’ll just smash a window.
dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
If you need electricity to operate your locks, a power failure is the difference between you sleeping on your front porch, or burglars having a key to your house.
CoughingwithCoffee@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I feel sorry for my neighbor who has to repeat whatever phrase his smartlock accepts over and over while being locked out of his house.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 9 months ago
It depends on your threat vector. In the academic sense they’re less secure but if you often loan out keys they’re more secure because you don’t have to give someone the key.
MelodiousFunk@kbin.social 9 months ago
So, disregarding physical brute force (because that lock bypass method will never change), let's say a smart lock today is functionally equivalent to a traditional lock in terms of security. How's that smart lock going to look in 5 years? In 10? When is the manufacturer going to abandon the product and stop providing security updates? It's only a matter of time before whatever firmware it shipped with becomes obsolete. And then it's just one more thing on the list of pwnd devices that unscrupulous actors can access at will. Your friendly neighborhood junkie in search of quick cash might not know the difference, but a list of people that have e-Lock v2.2 would be very lucrative to the types of people that run the current smash and grab operations.
Soft/firmware obsolescence is a thing with any "smart" device, but it becomes especially egregious when it's built into what are traditionally durable devices like appliances. And even more so when it's something embedded, like a lock, outlet, etc. It becomes "replace that light fixture, or leave that vulnerability on the network." A lock takes that from "someone can waltz into my home network" to "someone can waltz through my front door."
UncleBadTouch@lemmy.ca 9 months ago
if someone wants in, a lock wont even slow them down. check out lock-picking lawyer
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
From what I’ve seen? Considerably less secure.
Many of them feature a normal pin-tumbler lock cylinder as a backup in case the electronics fail, and best case scenario it’s going to be as mediocre as any old Kwikset hanging on the peg on the comedy aisle at Lowe’s. So you’re probably still vulnerable to key theft, key duplication, picking, combing, raking, jiggling, etc.
Then there’s the electronics. A surprising number of them rely on either a solenoid to directly operate the latch/bolt, or a relay that energizes a motor to do the same, both of these are vulnerable to attacks by magnets. A stupid number of them are vulnerable to disassembly attacks. There are trace evidence attacks such as looking at the keypad and noticing where all the fingerprints are, there’s just watching you dial the combination…
And the smart phone app driven ones…sure, let’s send a signal that means “I just got home” across the internet. That sounds safe.
AnalogyAddict@lemmy.world 9 months ago
In my case, definitely more secure. If I’d given my kids a key, my ex was likely to copy it without my knowledge. With a code, I could tell then to go ahead and give him the code if he pressured them, then just change it.
And I still have a non-electronic deadbolt.
qyron@sopuli.xyz 9 months ago
Researched a bit into this some time back and I was not convinced.
It would be nice to have a lock I could assign entry codes for different users and still have a physical key as an emergency backup but the obcession with these locks being tied to an app and/or internet discouraged me.
I stayed with purely mechanical locks with complex keys and secondary arms that make the task to break down a door much harder.
Don’t know how it is in other countries but I’ve been to shops where I specifically asked for locks that would give a locksmith a bad time to pick and was shown a few models where the only way to break it was to put a whole cutter to it and cut out the entire drum.
Froyn@kbin.social 9 months ago
"The weakest part of the door is the window (next to it)"
"You don't need a key when you have a brick"TheLurker@lemmy.world 9 months ago
The largest tech companies can’t secure their shit properly.
No these smart locks are terrible. Their physical locks are usually bargain basement trash, their design is usually full of well known flaws and their code is full of well known exploits.
MegaUltraChicken@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I pick locks as a hobby. Your door lock is almost never the point of attack. It’s way easier to break the door or windows. Only time picking would be useful is if you need to conceal that you’ve entered, which burglars don’t typically care about.
BURN@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I have a smart lock and tbh hate it. I’m not sure the security difference, but it’s more inconvenient than a key, takes longer, needs me to pull out my phone, open an app and then I can unlock my front door.
Unfortunately getting away from them in moderately upscale apartments is getting harder and harder.
DNOS@reddthat.com 9 months ago
If the door is made of cardboard as most us’s one are u better get the cheapest one it won’t make a difference… look at an European door if u don’t now what I mean…
phoenixz@lemmy.ca 9 months ago
Check the YouTube channel 'the lockpicking lawyer". He picks locks, both mechanical and electrical. His typical videos don’t take more than 2-3 minute because that’s all he needs to pick a lock multiple times. Electrical locks usually are opened with a paperclip or something similar. Wat too many locks are designed and built by idiots who have no idea about security
RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Depends. Any modern lock can easily be picked with something called a comb, which can bypass all the pins by pushing them far up into the lock so it can turn. However, the position on the security of pin pads is debatable. Regardless of which is better, both can easily be bypassed with a drill, so I guess neither.
slazer2au@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Less. Look at any Lockpicking Lawyer video on YouTube as he demonstrates in real time how bad they are. Most of his videos are under 5 min
If you want to really turn yourself off smart locks check out any DefCon talk about smart locks or “smart” devices in general.
dogslayeggs@lemmy.world 9 months ago
And most dumb locks can also be picked in under 5 minutes. The difference is a smart lock can alert me when someone who isn’t me opens the door or leaves it open. Of course, most burglars are just going to break a window to get in.
Madison420@lemmy.world 9 months ago
There should be a separation between fully mechanical locks with electronic monitoring (ideal) and a mechanical lock with vital electronic components.
schmidtster@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Funnily enough, if you have the best lock they’ll just break your door or window instead.
Much cheaper to replace a lock than the entire front door.
Something to keep in mind, also lots of smart locks down have a keyhole to pick, so they would actually increase your security when compared to most regular lockset.
maporita@unilem.org 9 months ago
A previous owner of my apartment had for some reason installed a high security door. It’s 5 inches thick with steel plates inside and has 3 separate sets of 3 locking rods like a bank vault. Not sure what line of work they were in but, really, good luck to the person who thinks they can break in here easily. Downside is there is no way to put a digital lock on the sucker.
TheIllustrativeMan@lemmy.world 9 months ago
You want them to break in for insurance purposes though, it’s a clear indication of unauthorized entry. Your policy should cover the door/window, but if your lock gets picked/bypassed you’re going to have a rough time getting things covered.
ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
My smart lock doesn’t change the locking mechanisms. It’s basically a robot on the inside that turns the lock like you would. The only security issue would have to be software side, which a typical thief isn’t going to bother with especially since you cost tell from the outside that’s it’s not a normal lock - because it is.
August lock btw.
meekah@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I agree that most thieves won’t bother - but they do now have the additional option to hack it, making the lock less secure in total
malloc@lemmy.world 9 months ago
most of the smart locks that are supposed to be drop in replacements for traditional locks are mostly trash.
Personally been eyeing upgrading to UI’s access readers, but it lacks features like door unlock with Apple Homekey (for now anyways since it requires some specialty hardware). So been holding off.
This particular product is geared towards small business and large enterprises. But can be setup for home usage if you have to technical expertise.