what are the grievances with the "male loneliness epidemic"?

Comments

• lemmysquezzy@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  OP, I do want to start a discussion about if it is real.

  It is starting to feel like selective breeding being manipulative by AI for the wealthy and religious groups. Meanwhile, we keep debating gender wars and loneliness. It would not surprise me if this wasn’t manufactured through propaganda and social media. Even ironically the 6ft, blue eyes, meme was either a call for men to do better, or for women to date higher status men.

  Everything is more expensive which limits the working class. Having children is prohibitively expensive. It is of little surprise that there is an entire group of men that are not just lonely, but economically outside of purview, causing loneliness. There are also trends related to formal education that would support this narrative regarding men and women. Upward mobility has shown millenials are worse off than their parents too.

  To my understanding even Gen. Z is not dating to a large degree. There is also a push for young men to join the trades and not pursue higher education. So if it is not generational, what other forces are at play?

  Given the exaggerated idea of a loneliness epidemic, why don’t we hear about the female loneliness epidemic? How are so many men “failing” at talking to women. It’s not an epidemic, it’s manufactured on purpose. I also belive dating apps are being used in this campaign as well, either for profit, or more so, strict social engineering.

  Tldr: I don’t blame men or women, but I do explore the impact of AI and social engineering applied against the working class.

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• lemmy_acct_id_8647@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Men, by and large, create toxicity within their own circles. Male culture has a lot of issues and a lot of unrealistic expectations are put in men in US society. Some external, but the majority come from inside. The whole alpha male culture bullshit that permeantes it. There’s a lot, and I mean a LOT of good that can come from healthy male culture. But right now it’s like men have a branding issue where the loudest among them are also the worst (the Andrew Tates of the world).

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  • leftytighty@slrpnk.net ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’d say there’s some unavoidable bias there. If we judge the dominant masculine culture by the degree to which people emphasize masculinity then of course the loud ultra masculine people will seem like the representation.

    Lots of men out there just being men

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    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Lots of men out there just being men

      True. But nobody cares about them because they aren’t bothering anyone. But they do get lumped in with the controversial men.

      Like I don’t have much of a clue about Tate or any of that stuff. But if I tell people that then I’m guilty of ignorance or something and I need to ‘educate’ myself about that stuff so I can… denounce it? Because apparently just not knowing or caring is complicity or something.

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• jjjalljs@ttrpg.network ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I kind of assume it’s the juxtaposition of “I as a white man have immense social privilege” with “I can’t get anyone to play with me”. Like, other people are worried about being abducted on the street and you’re sad you can’t play basketball with your bros?

  The sadness of loneliness can be real but in contrast to other things it can feel like it needs to be triaged into a lower priority. And then some men lose their shit over that, which makes people take them less seriously.

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  • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    most white men don’t have much social privileged.

    it’s only the top 5-10% who have the privledge

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    • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      For example, white men will generally have an easier time in public spaces. Police and shops are less likely to bother them.

      privilege doesn’t mean “you have a yacht” or “you’re rich”

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• lightnsfw@reddthat.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  A lot of people can’t see things from any perspective beyond their own limited worldview. If they don’t experience a problem, it doesn’t exist or it’s not that bad and everyone should focus on their problems instead or if they are experiencing something it must be happening to everyone. I think this is causing a lot of the conflict around this issue. There is also the fact that a lot of the men complaining about this issue come at it not so much as “I’m lonely” but as “I’m not getting laid”. Which loses them a lot of sympathy.

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  • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Or it’s more about the inability to form community/family units that are so essential for human flourishing. For men and women both.

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    • Mighty@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It’s also an issue to have this form of generation fight. We as older men, also have an obligation to question the old ways and listen to the young people. Because yes, a lot of it is a problem. And refusing to see the problem doesn’t make it not a problem. It just makes you part of it. Doesn’t make you evil to consume certain things. But it doesn’t help if you’re not compassionate with the current views and the emotions of the younger people around you. Most people don’t even want to make anyone stop doing something, but they’d be happy to know that you’re questioning it.

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    • lightnsfw@reddthat.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Or it’s more about the inability to form community/family units that are so essential for human flourishing. For men and women both. And yet we have created all these biases and expecations of each other that handicap people from connecting.

      100% that is the root of the loneliness epidemic and I agree that there is a problem. I was just trying to stick to answering OPs question about why we see opposition to the concept.

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• WaffleWarrior@lemmy.zip ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Being a man is tricky. Full grown males can be physically dangerous and I think there is a subtle undercurrent of worry with all men they may be dealing with a hostile moron, or a worry someone may try to assert dominance. Men are organically closed off past a certain age because of this.

  Men also experience allot of these weird power dynamics growing up. Both men and women kind of seek to control and bully men until they come into their own…and suddenly they are grown and terrifying if some respects and everyone magically backs the f*** off

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• WanderWisley@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think part of it also depends on were you live. Just as a personal experience I live in a very rural part of northern Nevada, I’m born a raised here. The population is about 4k and honestly I would say 90% of the population are hardcore conservatives. Even as a kid I knew that I didn’t fit in with anyone else. I would usually just keep to myself all throughout school and even now as a 42 year old man I barely speak to anyone. It is lonely but the alternative is a no go for me especially now with politics being such a big part of peoples identity.

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• figjam@midwest.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think it has to do with the death of 3rd spaces which used to be an outlet for socialization. But as a man, I’m also not lonely. I have friends and acquaintances and I get to go outside sometimes.

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  • Nikls94@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This right here. But even for our parents this is true.

    I remember back when we could easily get some beers and sit at the local park or at the riverbed. But now? Everything’s private property and the bars are way too expensive to spend 5 hours in. I don’t know the last time I played Billard - or even have seen a pool table itself.

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    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      In the 2000s I could go out drinking for an entire night for like $20. Or I could hang out in a cafe with a sandwich and a coffee for $10.

      Now two beers is $25 and that’s an hour if you nurse them slow. Wanna hang out for 2+ hours anyplace? Goign to cost you probably $50-100. Even bowling a frame is now like 75/pp in my city

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• Rooty@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  On a related note, I wish we would acknowledge that men socialize different and that guys doing stuff together is therapeutic. Ruminating on emotions can have a negative effect in men, while work therapy can be much effective that talk therapy.

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  • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    that would be acknowleding that men and women are different and that’s bad in 2025, apparently.

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• hanrahan@slrpnk.net ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I have no idea but thought I’d throw out that, as a 58yr old cis white guy I’ve never been lonely in my life, i have literally no idea what that’s like and don’t get involved in hypotheses about it all because I have nothing to bring to the debate. I do find human behaviour interesting (and mostly bizzare) though.

  The more time I spend with people the more I crave being alone but that’s a different thing.

  I now live on the edge of a tiny village in the middle of no where Australia and lived in a small cottage off grid in the bush for 10 years previously bit alos loved in an apartment in the sky in a largish city.

  One thing I noticed, I found the car free existence ina city bought me into contact with people all the time, even walking you’d see people people and say hello. Stop at a crossing and have a small conversation occasionally etc. i even said hello to women and was never called a pervert ;)

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• shaggyb@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Oh my god STOP WITH THE GENDER DEBATES

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• RBWells@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Who says this? I am not a cis-het man and have not heard the criticism. I thought it was a known thing? Are you literally hearing it doesn’t exist, or is it more like they need to suck it up and/or that they are losers that need to go outside?

  If it’s the second, that’s sexism. That’s where it comes from. Illogical ideas about men. Believe it or not, we have not overcome that yet. People have very twisted ideas about how men and women should behave and feel.

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• Preventer79@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Can we please leave gender war slop back at the old site please?

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• rabber@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think there is definitely a male loneliness epidemic but I think there is also an equally bad female loneliness epidemic that nobody talks about enough

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  • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    they both exist. but the male one makes people angry so it gets more engagement. it’s also framed as ‘men are losers who need to do better in life’

    the female one is often framed as ‘women are too successful for men’.

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    • rabber@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I felt all bitter like you did but I met a girl recently who completely stole my heart, they do exist for sure

      Very good point about common spaces

      Also there are no safe spaces for men outside of wilderness and AA meetings hahaha

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  • madcaesar@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I think what’s happening is:

    40% of men are good people

    40% of women are good people

    The remaining 20% are pieces of shit that demonize and demean the other sex, which has caused the 80% to become scared and reclusive.

    Social media makes it seem like the percentages are flipped but they are not!

    The numbers are made up but you get my point.

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  • Preventer79@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Modern online incel and radfem movements were created to pit them against each other and prevent them from uniting and creating positive social change.

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    • daggermoon@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Created by whom? I’m actually curious.

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  • JargonWagon@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Relevant

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• Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve seen two sides to it.

  Side 1: “boo hoo nobody will fuck me because I don’t think other people should have rights”

  Side 2: not having strong friendships/relationships because our society is built around capitalism, cars, and social media (this obviously applies across genders, side therefore is a generalized loneliness epidemic, not a male gendered one)

  In my mind only the second side is worth listening to.

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  • Tedesche@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Side 2 has not actual relevance to the problem itself. These societal tropes are not why men are having a hard time finding women. It’s just a societal trope posing as an explanation.

    Side 3 is the only relevant issue. Men are constantly told they need to be more vulnerable or their masculinity is toxic, and yet when they express themselves vulnerably, they’re punished for it.

    The problem is that the people touting the toxic masculinity narrative (feminists) don’t take into account how much women reinforce toxic masculinity.

    The deeper problem: feminists think they represent women to a far greater extent than they actually do. The fact of the matter is that most women don’t identify as feminists, and therefore feminists are representing liberal gender beliefs, rather than most women. Don’t get me wrong: I actually agree with feminists on balance, but their messaging is garbage, divisive, bullshit. Feminism is far too consumed by misandry to effectively argue their points in a way that could persuade the majority of men and women to support them. This is why they encounter so much failure when their cause is actually 90% right.

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    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      feminist has never been a coherent set of beliefs of messages. it’s a clusterfuck of viewpoints.

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    • Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Side 2 is very relevant. If you are lonely you get easily into very terrible sides of society and mindsets. I speak from experience. If you dont have a sense of belonging you also have no sense of self, but then come people that tell you to have a part in their group because of race, religion, nationality, or any other extremist reason.

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• SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  There’s basically a lot of modern “feminists” who have decided that two wrongs make a right.

  It’s good that women feel comfortable expressing themselves and trying to dismantle the patriarchy since it hurts us all. But many of them don’t stop there and end up crossing the line into misandry and blind hatred of men.

  This results in these “feminists” saying some pretty bigoted shit like “white men can’t experience racism and sexism” as well as harassing men for seeking support.

  This group mocks the male loneliness epidemic out of spite like other bigot groups.

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  • yarr@feddit.nl ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    “white men can’t experience racism and sexism”

    A big problem here is that not everyone has a common definition for racism and sexism. Some definitions take existing power structures and historical context, and others don’t. A discussion about this topic should be started with what specifically each participant believes these terms mean. Otherwise you have two people talking about “sexism” but they are just talking past each other because they lack a shared understanding of the term as it is used.

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    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      they are well-defined terms.

      where people argue about it is who can be racist/sexist. a lot of people think it can’t exist against white men or form minority group to minority group. most of the people thinking this way are clueless white people trying to score virtue points. in those people’s minds being sexist against men is a positive thing.

      truth is sexism/racism is rampant everywhere. and in some societies its far worse than it is in the USA/Europe.

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    • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Usually, only bigots want to redefine the definitions of racism and sexism.

      It’s pretty easy not to be a bigot if you aren’t an asshole.

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  • leftytighty@slrpnk.net ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The “white people” idea has some merit when you consider that whiteness has usually been an arbitrary group of races and cultures that define the dominant group in that society. The whole “Italians and Irish weren’t once considered white” thing.

    Obviously individuals can experience hardship and you might even argue that preferring non-white candidates or affirmative action is harmful (I’m not going to, but you can).

    My position on this is that everything is a patch on fundamental inequality and I’d rather just get to anarcho-communism so we don’t have to solve 100 individual problems caused by historical racism and the capitalist machinery that lets that manifest as unjust distribution of wealth.

    Regardless of age and gender and familial success in past generations we should all be equal.

    (I’m not gonna argue that either)

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    • tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Anarcho-communism is the way.

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    • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yeah, I agree. Wealth redistribution would fix most social and economic problems overnight.

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    • phx@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well, if any caucasianswanna experience a taste of racism/discrimination, just head down to certain areas of Richmond, BC Canada

      • Signage only in Chinese (violates language laws)

      • Restaurants that won’t even acknowledge your presence (if non Chinese)

      • Realtors that won’t show you housing (if non Chinese)

      But if course nobody will do anything because to address the issue said seem… racist.

      And that’s the funny thing. Because people at the top of the racist pyramid generally share the same skin color, ethnicity and/or pants-contents as you, you get to be grouped in as “the oppressor”. Even if you share a lot more in common with victims of the same system, complaints are met with decision and ignored.

      That’s because it’s easier to divide and conquer by skin and gender to hide the real class war that exists.

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• TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s socially acceptable to hate and be biased against men. Especially white men, and especially working-class white men.

  That’s really all it is. If white women had a loneliness epidemic we’d never hear the end of it. If non-white women had a loneliness epidemic, we’d never hear about it.

  It’s all about who controls the media.

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• chilicheeselies@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think its pretty hypocritical for anyone who isnt a male to have an opinion on the validity of an experience they cant possibly have unless they transitioned.

  Its like me having an opinion on have a period.

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  • tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    On the other hand, belle hooks’, The Will to Change, is one of the most compassionate and understanding takes on the subject.

    So she has an opinion on the validity of the experience, and it is that capitalism and patriarchy is alienating for men, just like it is for others. Especially working class men.

    Nurturing Our Humanity, co-written by a female author, uses system science and primatology to validate what men experience in domination based societies.

    I know your point was more long the lines of critics shouldn’t criticize things that they don’t understand, but there are a lot of feminists that do understand and have an informed opinion, because they study how these systems of domination affect everyone, not just women.

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  • Captainautism@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yet, men have dictated women’s bodies for centuries. Nah, you can shove that view up your ass.

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    • Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And that gives them a higher position?

      Taking your argumentation into another context but keeping the same intention: europeans had colonialised africa for over 100 years, means they cant critisise the africans nations politics?

      “X did z to y so y can talk freely about matters that affect only X but x not about y”

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    • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      “MEN IN THE PAST DID BAD, SO ALL MEN FOREVER GUILTY”

      What a well reasoned argument.

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    • the_elder@midwest.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I reject your opinion. Men shouldn’t be dictating women’s bodies and women shouldn’t be dismissing men’s feelings. Two wrongs, etc etc, I shouldn’t have to explain this to an adult.

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  • subtleorbit@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’ll disagree a little here.

    My wife’s had surgeries from men that know waaaaaay more about her period than she does.

    That being said, they went to school for a decade and have another decade of experience learning specifically about a topic. They aren’t just some random business student that dropped out 2 weeks into semester one and writes their theses via comments.

    Small but important caveat. Otherwise 100% agreed. I have no ideas on periods because I’m not a woman or a Dr.

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    • tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yeah I also disagreed, I’ve read some very compassionate takes on men’s situation written by academic feminists.

      Bell hooks the will to change for example. Women can be experts on gender, and how systems of domination effect everyone. Men included.

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  • obsoleteacct@lemmy.zip ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Particularly when so many trans men who have lived as women previously have come forward to validate how much more isolated men feel.

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  • MeThisGuy@feddit.nl ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’m more of a comma or interrobang kind of guy.

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    • GeorgimusPrime@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And yet, your sentence ends with…

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• RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I can only suggest reading some of “The Way We Never Were”. It’s a look at society and how it actually was vs the manufactured versions people today use to weaponize the whitewashed past as some sort of ideal. It’s not a psychological book or a deep analysis of society at all, but one of the things that struck me about it that relate to social circles and how it applies to men in particular is the loss of “the village” and the damage “self reliance” - the isolation of the American Family Unit by making it the Family Vs The World - has done to society and the ability of people to form steady social groups outside of work. This, and the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.

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  • EnsignWashout@startrek.website ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.

    That’s a great point.

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  • ameancow@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There are some people dropping their life stories in this post, which should be a barometer for just how lonely everyone really is.

    But yes, this. It’s all socio-economic. It’s capitalism ruining our world by forcing us to serve the system instead of having a system that serves us. It has been like this a long time, but if unmanaged, allowed to grow and consolidate beyond just the interests of a few companies here and there and allowed to turn into an all-consuming monster that takes away our politics, our social lives, our hopes and dreams, you end up with a very miserable population.

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    • zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      [deleted]

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    • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yes, it’s “divide and conquer” on a grand scale. Because we don’t have groups we’re never strong enough to rebel.

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• ThePyroPython@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As a cis het man, the “male loneliness epidemic” is more a collection of symptoms of multiple problems without one source.

  Those who claim a single source usually point to women because they’re a misogynist grifter looking chasing clout or to sell a scam course / supplement.

  So without further ado, here’s my non-academic (and probably ill-informed) reckon based on conversations from online and IRL, lived experiences, and perceived societal norms. Have your large pinch of salt on standby.

  1. Both men and women have been socialised that the only emotions men show is anger or laughter. Men have been socialised that the only emotion they can express in front of other men is anger and laughter. This means the amount of emotional support men can use from their support network is limited, they’re not practiced on how to deal with them, and either have to figure it out by themselves, be lucky enough to have a friend or partner whom they feel emotionally safe to express these feelings, can afford to seek professional help, laugh the problem off with self-depricating humour to repress the emotion, or turn it into anger usually as a result of succumbing to one of the aforementioned grifters.

  Understandably, women have been socialised that if a man is showing emotion then that could turn into frustration and anger and so then they either have to risk taking on unpaid emotional labour or remove themselves from the situation. So sometimes you get this scenario where women want men to be more emotionally open but then recoil when they do because subconscious alarm bells start ringing that “you’re in danger” because there’s a decent chance that they could be.

  Thankfully this is changing with younger generations, but it will take a generation or two.

  2. Male support socialisation is centred around problem solving, not listening. Even if a guy has friends he can lean on emotionally, the conversations are usually focused around fixing the problem rather than providing a listening space and reassurance that those emotions are valid.

  This is the main reason I pass off an “I’m fine” to friends and family because they’d try and suggest solutions to the problem rather than just listen.

  Again, this is changing in society but these kinds of changes are slow.

  3. Loss of third spaces. This affects everyone, not just men. But these third spaces where people can socialise without being forced to spend money are key for building communities. When people had disposable income or access to lines of credit it didn’t matter that there was an expectation that you had to pay for parking, food, drink, ticket(s) for the activity. Now, that’s less of an option for many people.

  This hasn’t improved and will likely only get worse as late stage capitalism squeezes out anything that is unable or refuses to make more and more profit per quarter.

  4. The lack of third spaces has moved friendships, courtship, and dating online. Whilst this has meant many people have made connections (platonic and romantic) that would have gone missed, the big tech companies have realised that anger and loneliness are good for business.

  The social networks get far more engagement from posts that make people angry and therefore their advertising revenues increase.

  Similarly, the dating monopoly Match Group, has realised that having more men than women on the platform means these men will spend money on these platforms for a chance at matches. So they purposely profile men who are likely to pay for things like “super likes” etc. and do nothing to make the experience more pleasant for women.

  This isn’t anything new by the way, it’s the same reason some clubs make guys pay on the door and women get in for free, and it’s the same reason why there’s more female sex workers than male sex workers.

  Men are willing to pay many and women don’t have to, but women have to put up with a lot of entitlement from the men who have paid for matches / to get into the club and be constantly fending off attention from men they don’t wish to reciprocate the attention to.

  Without third spaces for general socialising, the only place to interact with potential partners is paid and will therefore skew financially in favour of women at the cost of their peace-of-mind.

  5. This is more of a personal sentiment but others might empathise: I don’t want to feel like I’m harassing women.

  I’m not cold approaching anyone when I go out because I don’t want to interrupt their precious free time they get in between the grind of life. I don’t want to interrupt them socialising with their friends or be creepy on the dancefloor by getting in their personal space, or even glancing over too much.

  So I stay at arms length, avoid eye contact, and only approach or get close if I’m getting multiple very strong signals large enough to land an Airbus A380.

  6. This is definitely just applies to me, but I have exceedingly low self-confidence, self-esteem, and low opinion of myself from a deep rooted depression. That’s a straight-up non-starter for trying to be with anyone else because nobody, man or woman, likes an emotional anchor dragging their mood down. I’m working on it but without paying a lot of money for therapy (the NHS waiting list is a joke), I’m stuck trying to work it out myself (see points 1 & 2).

  So until I’m fit for socialising in that way, I’m purposely isolating myself in that regard.

  Oh and for added flavour, I don’t want to be around watching society collapse as the world continues to burn not can I distract myself (or be ignorant enough) to not pay attention to it.

  To be honest, right now my mind is telling just to wait for my mother to pass away then withdraw all my money, disappeare abroad, burn through it in pure hedonism then off myself once the cash has run out. At least this way I can enjoy a shorter life rather than suffer a longer one.

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  • tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There is one source.

    I recommend reading nurturing our humanity. Primates have two observable social systems. And they both exist in all societies along a spectrum.

    Domination and partnership.

    The more domination based a society, the more everybody suffers. Including those higher in the social hierarchy.

    Working class men, they are in a strange place because they have hierarchical status based on gender but not based on economic class. This makes it difficult for them to find solidarity with women. And thus more lonely in a system of loneliness.

    Communists would blame capitalism of course, and they’re not exactly wrong because capitalism is a domination-based system. Marx called this phenomena alienation.

    Feminists would blame patriarchy, and again they are not wrong it is a domination-based system.

    So on and so forth, but we can take a step back and look at ourselves as apes and see domination is the problem. The will to power.

    Buddhism calls this energy Mara, and would call the partnership energy Buddha nature.

    It’s all the same thing, it’s a strategy apes use to relate to each other and survive. Partnership is a better strategy. Assuming your goal is the health of society and the planet rather than personal gain.

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  • HurricaneLiz@hilariouschaos.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’ll be your friend; you can actually discuss things well 💜

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• daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’m a very fluid person. So I think I have great inside in the differences between genders and sexualities in loneliness.

  A lot of it have to do with “be approached”.

  As a girl (pretty girl I may add) presenting person a get approached a lot, a lot of people I don’t know want to talk with me. It’s ridiculously easy to make new acquaintances and friends. Everyone wants to talk and be around you.

  As a man presenting gay I also get approached a lot when I’m in “gay spaces”. Again it’s impossible to be alone unless I voluntarily would want to.

  Yes, these two have the handicap that a lot of approaches are “sex related” of by people wanting sex. But not all of them, among so much approaches there’s always some that doesn’t just want sex.

  Then, as a male presenting person in not gay spaces and even more so in straight spaces. I don’t get approached, never, at all. Zero people talk to me just because they want to be near me. If I want to meet somebody I always have to be the one initiating the approach.

  In my experience this is the root of the issue. And the experience that most people complaining about “male loneliness” are talking about.

  There are other type of loneliness. As a Queer I’m quite familiar with loneliness related to being different, and people literally hating you for what you are, or not accepting you. But that’s a different thing. The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don’t go after people people won’t ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time. Because your self worth get tanked, specially if you are introvert and have a hard time approaching people.

  I suppose it won’t end until it get normalized to approach cis men the same way it’s normalized in the other situations I talked about. The reason of why people don’t approach cis men as easy can be discussed, I get that there’s a fear/danger factor in approaching a cis male, specially after being approached by so many menacing people in your life. But still, I do think the root of the issue is that.

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  • pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is so incredibly accurate

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  • TheSambassador@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don’t go after people people won’t ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time.

    I don’t know if I’ve ever seen it put so succinctly. Maybe this isn’t everything, but it is the root of the feeling for me. I’m constantly reaching out and checking in and it’s more rare for the reverse to happen (though it’s really important to notice when it does, which is something I’m trying to do more now).

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    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yep. It’s also incredibly draining to have to do all the work. Nobody will ever reach out to you first. You must always be reaching out.

      I gave up on romantic relationships mostly, because I was doing 90% of the work. And if I wanted a break, I was told I was being a ‘not a real man’. I bought a house and got pets. My pets don’t demand I do all the work for them. They actually communicate and appreciate.

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  • zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • Madzielle@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Human nature is evolutionary.

      Never say never.

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    • squaresinger@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      No, that’s not it. You are seeing your experience (and the experience of people around you, all living in the same society at the same time) and extrapolate that to the “very human nature”.

      Just go back 50 years and you have all these structures making it easier for men to keep contact. You had fraternities, churches, unions, clubs, associations and so on, all designed to pick up young men, give them structure, give them contacts and help them being part of something bigger. All that failed some time in the 70s or 80s with the individualism movement that valued individualism over every kind of group.

      If you go back even further, social structures were even stronger, with even things like arranged marriage being commonplace in many societies. In societies where that was common, there was no expectation at all that a young cis man would have to approach women at all.

      Don’t extrapolate your experience to all of human-kind. It is almost never correct.

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  • JustARaccoon@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    After reading most of these comments I’ll have to say this comment resonated the most with me. It’s exhausting to always be the one who needs to put in effort to talk to new people, and then you need to maintain it pretty much one sidedly as well, you end up just giving up on it and looking more for good friends to rely on than romantic things.

    I’ve heard from female friends that there are women also dealing with this so it’s not a uniquely male thing, but social norms have sadly made it so and it really gets to you as a guy when you’re not also being pursued by people. I’ve seen some nice clips tangential to this asking women when was the last time they bought flowers for a guy and some of them couldn’t think of an instance, it’s rough out there, and unless you’re at the top of your game it’s a huge struggle, and with the economy as it is a lot of people people rightfully are, but as you say women are usually better trained to work together on this stuff, whereas guys largely aren’t and suffer alone as a consequence. I’m lucky to have some good male and female friends I can open up to, but I definitely feel like the exception on that.

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    • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      One of my female friends bought me a cake in college for my birthday.

      Only person who ever bought me a cake for my birthday my entire life (other than parents a s child). No other friend, or girlfriend, ever did that for me. Most of my girlfriends ‘gifts’ to me was usually something they wanted for themselves, like buying me fancy towels so they could use them in my bathroom.

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• Matriks404@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I don’t understand how it’s just “male loneliness epidemic” in the first place. It’s illogical.

  That said, when I started to be more open to the girl I liked, she ghosted me, and it seems that she doesn’t even want talk to me anymore. It would be much easier if I get some feedback what I did wrong, but I guess it’s just men who need to be more open and communicative, not women.

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  • chilicheeselies@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You didnt do anything wrong if you were being yourself. I know it sounds corny but just being the best version of you is the best thing you can do, and if someone ghosts you like that they did you a favor. You dont want to be with someine like that; you just eant to be with the idea of the person you thought they were.

    Still a bummer, but dont let a jerk define who you are.

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• hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Cis man here.

  It’s an issue. It comes in lots of different colors and flavors but it all stems from social issues.

  There’s lots of reasons, some men were never taught about social relationships, men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction thus giving them less experience, some men are ostracized when talking about their social struggles, and these are on top of preexisting environmental factors and preexisting mental conditions.

  At this point it’s important to say: it’s not a contest for genders. Trans people have it hard, nb people have it hard women have it hard. It’s just that this is one of the rare times men’s struggles are not addressed properly.

  I can tell you I probably have about 50 men in my life that I ko and wo are nice but if I had to talk to a man about my struggles socially, there are 2 men.

  Now couple this with the fact 90% of men I had deeper conversations with told me they are struggling with depression and some of them having suicidal ideations, it is fair to assume we have a problem.

  For me, the depression is always exacerbated by social isolation. It makes sense - not getting some feedback from other people can get you into crazy headspaces and there are thinking patterms that literally make you hurt yourself just to make it stop.

  There’s another aspect: we are social creatures and as soon as you don’t get enough “social exposure” it’s harder to learn social cues and “get the vibe”, and other people notice. So the more you isolate, the harder preceding social interaction become and the harder it is, which in turn incentivizes isolating. A vicious cycle.

  Now not everyone has these issues and I would never say that it’s the most important issue in our current society but every time I hear suicide statistics by gender it really puts into perspective that we should get to know those people who we have failed.

  One thing I also wanna address is the idea that “men are never taught how to socialize”, because I think it implies a lot of things. First, I’m sure a lot of men are not, but a good number of men are. I was for example. It didn’t help, but that was never the issue for me. Second, it implies men want to be taught. I spoke to a group of 2 men and 2 women with mental disabilities about if they ever considered complete social isolation. The men said yes and the women said no. I think this is really significant and can give insight into why this is affecting men more than other genders. I would infer from this that women always see the benefit in social interaction, and men pursue social interactions rather as a means to an end. This might be a stretch but this supported by other observations of friends and family.

  This topic is really important and I hope it gets talked about more - for the benefit of everyone who wants to see people become happier. The men affected by loneliness, as well as the people who deal with them.

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• peoplebeproblems@midwest.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  “It’s stupid, it’s not a thing, it’s men’s own fault”

  So as someone who recently learned my gender identity is demiguy, I can say it is and isn’t a thing.

  Masculinity as a whole is a toxic concept in my book. A man is stoic. A man is strong, capable, and will put up or shut up. A man is attractive if he looks strong, acts strong, drives strong trucks, enjoys strength based sports, is emotionally strong, and essentially a lifelong warrior. A man can do anything he needs to by himself. A man can change if he needs to. A man has rough hands. A man dresses prepared. A man does not have too much emotional intimacy. A man is vulnerable only to the extent that he doesn’t appear weak.

  All of those statements apply to the criticisms. It is stupid. Men aren’t socializing with hardly anyone. It’s hard to when you have to do the mentioned statements. It is a thing. Men do not have friends to call and shoot the shit with. Men are annoying when we text too much. Sharing real feelings is weakness. It is men’s own fault. It’s the nature of the characteristics of manliness.

  The unfortunate side effect is that Incels have coopted it to defend their misogyny, and women who all have significant reason to be angry at this see it as terribly offensive.

  To me? Yeah. I’m lonely. But it’s mostly because I didn’t understand who I was, and I didn’t have groups to fit in with. I like wearing tailored suits, but I love having soft hands. I like lighter clothing, cuddling, playing silly games with children, lavender and vanilla scented candles and candle lit baths.

  But men can’t share any of that with each other even if they identify as men. Women are the only link to “softness” they experience. This leads to a compounding problem. Men need to accept that they will be alone unless they can connect on something OTHER than STRENGTH.

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• morphballganon@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Much of our media depicts men in successful relationships, handsome, with a good circle of friends, decent jobs etc.

  Guys see this and think there’s something wrong because their reality isn’t matching that media.

  It’s more exciting to think you’re observing a widespread social phenomenon than to admit your expectations were shaped by fiction.

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• threeonefour@piefed.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Man Carrying Thing has a sketch on male loneliness epidemic. Someone tries explaining social issues to a guy who doesn't care about anyone but himself but starts to listen when he hears the word "male" added to them. Male lonliness, male climate change, male war. The guy now cares deeply about these social issues (because they affect him) except he thinks all the problems are caused by women not sleeping with him.

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• unknownuserunknownlocation@kbin.earth ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  When people have created a narrative that "white x y z men" are responsible for all the evil in the world (I'm exagerating, but you get my drift), it creates a very difficult situation when those people are facing some serious difficulties. The intellectually lazy thing to do in that case is to brush it off or minimize it, like in the ways you've described. And unfortunately, that's the route those same people will take, since identity politics are intellectually lazy (and lacking compassion, but that's another story).

  The unfortunate part of it is that the right has taken advantage of that wide open flank, which is one main reasons we're in this current clusterfuck.

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• HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Ok now that I know my terms I am apparently a cis-het man and don't feel this and don't know anyone who does so its a bit hard to know how or why it may be happening. I am older though so is this possibly more prevalent in an age group? Although also im an introvert so don't need all that much people interaction to not feel lonely.

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• surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Some is valid. Men aren’t taught how to make and maintain emotionally open friendships, with men or women. It’s seen as weak or weird to cry on front of your bros when you’re sad. This leads to loneliness. This is real.

  Some is not valid. Men claiming that they’re not getting laid and it’s women’s fault is bullshit. Or that women have impossibly high standards and are gold diggers. It’s nonsense.

  The problem is that the “women hating incels” have coopted the term, and their garbage deserves to be mocked.

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• HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  im one of those people who does not know what cis-het means? As far as I can tell cis means typical or normal or such.

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• NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As a male who grew up around males, men are men’s worst enemy.

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