what are the grievances with the "male loneliness epidemic"?

Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Mighty@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨nostupidquestions@lemmy.world⁩

The more I hear people talk about it who aren’t cis-het men, the more I hear criticism about the concept. But so far, I’ve only heard people say that it’s stupid, that it’s not a thing, that it’s men’s own fault etc. But I’ve yet to understand where that criticism comes from. I don’t want to start a discussion on whether or not it’s real or not. I just want to understand where the critics are coming from.

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surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Some is valid. Men aren’t taught how to make and maintain emotionally open friendships, with men or women. It’s seen as weak or weird to cry on front of your bros when you’re sad. This leads to loneliness. This is real.

Some is not valid. Men claiming that they’re not getting laid and it’s women’s fault is bullshit. Or that women have impossibly high standards and are gold diggers. It’s nonsense.

The problem is that the “women hating incels” have coopted the term, and their garbage deserves to be mocked.

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- FoxyFerengi@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The sheer number of men who suddenly have no support in their life because their relationship has ended, that soon struggle with suicidal thoughts should really point to the first thing you said. Men and women are socialized differently as children and this is one of the most common results when we reach adulthood. It will take an enormous shift in society and ingrained values to fix that
  
  That second point, yeah, women don’t need to get married to survive now. My grandmother couldn’t have her own bank account when she was a young adult, and banks would have laughed her out of town if she wanted a mortgage. My parents got married young because that was still kind of expected, especially in rural America. I haven’t dated in years, because it’s frustrating, and I have been able to, and lucky enough, to buy a home on my own finances.
  
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  - Witchfire@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    The sheer number of men who suddenly have no support in their life because their relationship has ended
    
    Do men really not have any friends? I just moved to a new country and made like 5 close friends in the first few months, so that blows my mind in a sad way
    
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- sunzu2@thebrainbin.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  Men aren't taught how to make and maintain emotionally open friendships,
  
  If this was true... Why is this an issue only now?
  
  Or all these men were lonely in the closet?
  
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  - howrar@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I would guess it has something to do with the loss of third places.
    
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  - captainlezbian@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    A lot of social organizations that men had used started dying. I have a friend who runs a freemason lodge and he struggles to get people to join. Other similar social clubs have also fallen by the wayside. Similarly the decline of long term geographic community has been brutal and people are less likely to get to know their neighbors or become regulars at the local bar.
    
    I see a lot of talk about how women’s liberation and the power to leave a bad marriage has been a component, but I suspect otherwise, having grown up with parents in a failing marriage. I strongly suspect that what a lot of these lonely men need is friends and community in a way that even a loving wife won’t cut it, much less a cold and distant wife and resentful children.
    
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  - surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It’s not an issue only now. But we’re not isolated than before because we lost our third spaces and communities. Bunch of lonely wolves.
    
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  - garbagebagel@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Its gotten worse because women are no longer forced to stay in or get into shitty, unfulfilling marriages. Men before had guaranteed companionship in the sense that it was societally and financially expected for a woman to stay in a relationship and provide emotional (and physical) companionship. With women becoming more independent, they’re able to leave abusive situations or to avoid getting into them in the first place.
    
    Therefore, if men are not socialized to maintain friendships and no one is being forced to emotionally support them anymore, then they are lonely.
    
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unknownuserunknownlocation@kbin.earth ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
When people have created a narrative that "white x y z men" are responsible for all the evil in the world (I'm exagerating, but you get my drift), it creates a very difficult situation when those people are facing some serious difficulties. The intellectually lazy thing to do in that case is to brush it off or minimize it, like in the ways you've described. And unfortunately, that's the route those same people will take, since identity politics are intellectually lazy (and lacking compassion, but that's another story).

The unfortunate part of it is that the right has taken advantage of that wide open flank, which is one main reasons we're in this current clusterfuck.

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- sunzu2@thebrainbin.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The comment section here speaks for itself.
  
  These idiots are still doing the culture war when we should be fighting the class war.
  
  Blaming a bunch of 20s something losers for "patriarchy" is peak useful idiot behaviour.
  
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  - pdxfed@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That flank. Sigh. I remember the turn after Occupy. It went from economics to being cool to just broadly bash men. I specifically remember outspoken, angry women at marches and protests and was like wait, where did the economics go? Like 60% of Republicans wanted wealth reform during occupy. It unfortunately coincided with really great–though apparently transitory–improvements in lgbtq rights. It was so weird to me that self-labeling “feminists” were suddenly talking like it was a zero sum game; for women to rise and improve and build and grow, men had to be put down. That is of course the language of someone seeking power, a charlatan, but it became quite normal. Even questioning the broad criticism of men wasn’t appropriate in “liberal” press or circles for a good decade. The whole "yeah but bashing men isn’t right/fair or clumsy” finally started working into the Atlantic, NYT and other large publications in 2023 but the damage had been done.
    
    It of course drove lots of men right to the tall radio, podcasters–and those were young adults then–i can’t imagine what it was like growing up since then as a young person with the normalization of some of this stuff.
    
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  - zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’m a very fluid person. So I think I have great inside in the differences between genders and sexualities in loneliness.

A lot of it have to do with “be approached”.

As a girl (pretty girl I may add) presenting person a get approached a lot, a lot of people I don’t know want to talk with me. It’s ridiculously easy to make new acquaintances and friends. Everyone wants to talk and be around you.

As a man presenting gay I also get approached a lot when I’m in “gay spaces”. Again it’s impossible to be alone unless I voluntarily would want to.

Yes, these two have the handicap that a lot of approaches are “sex related” of by people wanting sex. But not all of them, among so much approaches there’s always some that doesn’t just want sex.

Then, as a male presenting person in not gay spaces and even more so in straight spaces. I don’t get approached, never, at all. Zero people talk to me just because they want to be near me. If I want to meet somebody I always have to be the one initiating the approach.

In my experience this is the root of the issue. And the experience that most people complaining about “male loneliness” are talking about.

There are other type of loneliness. As a Queer I’m quite familiar with loneliness related to being different, and people literally hating you for what you are, or not accepting you. But that’s a different thing. The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don’t go after people people won’t ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time. Because your self worth get tanked, specially if you are introvert and have a hard time approaching people.

I suppose it won’t end until it get normalized to approach cis men the same way it’s normalized in the other situations I talked about. The reason of why people don’t approach cis men as easy can be discussed, I get that there’s a fear/danger factor in approaching a cis male, specially after being approached by so many menacing people in your life. But still, I do think the root of the issue is that.

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- JustARaccoon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  After reading most of these comments I’ll have to say this comment resonated the most with me. It’s exhausting to always be the one who needs to put in effort to talk to new people, and then you need to maintain it pretty much one sidedly as well, you end up just giving up on it and looking more for good friends to rely on than romantic things.
  
  I’ve heard from female friends that there are women also dealing with this so it’s not a uniquely male thing, but social norms have sadly made it so and it really gets to you as a guy when you’re not also being pursued by people. I’ve seen some nice clips tangential to this asking women when was the last time they bought flowers for a guy and some of them couldn’t think of an instance, it’s rough out there, and unless you’re at the top of your game it’s a huge struggle, and with the economy as it is a lot of people people rightfully are, but as you say women are usually better trained to work together on this stuff, whereas guys largely aren’t and suffer alone as a consequence. I’m lucky to have some good male and female friends I can open up to, but I definitely feel like the exception on that.
  
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  - TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    One of my female friends bought me a cake in college for my birthday.
    
    Only person who ever bought me a cake for my birthday my entire life (other than parents a s child). No other friend, or girlfriend, ever did that for me. Most of my girlfriends ‘gifts’ to me was usually something they wanted for themselves, like buying me fancy towels so they could use them in my bathroom.
    
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- TheSambassador@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don’t go after people people won’t ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time.
  
  I don’t know if I’ve ever seen it put so succinctly. Maybe this isn’t everything, but it is the root of the feeling for me. I’m constantly reaching out and checking in and it’s more rare for the reverse to happen (though it’s really important to notice when it does, which is something I’m trying to do more now).
  
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  - TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yep. It’s also incredibly draining to have to do all the work. Nobody will ever reach out to you first. You must always be reaching out.
    
    I gave up on romantic relationships mostly, because I was doing 90% of the work. And if I wanted a break, I was told I was being a ‘not a real man’. I bought a house and got pets. My pets don’t demand I do all the work for them. They actually communicate and appreciate.
    
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- pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This is so incredibly accurate
  
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- zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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  - squaresinger@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    No, that’s not it. You are seeing your experience (and the experience of people around you, all living in the same society at the same time) and extrapolate that to the “very human nature”.
    
    Just go back 50 years and you have all these structures making it easier for men to keep contact. You had fraternities, churches, unions, clubs, associations and so on, all designed to pick up young men, give them structure, give them contacts and help them being part of something bigger. All that failed some time in the 70s or 80s with the individualism movement that valued individualism over every kind of group.
    
    If you go back even further, social structures were even stronger, with even things like arranged marriage being commonplace in many societies. In societies where that was common, there was no expectation at all that a young cis man would have to approach women at all.
    
    Don’t extrapolate your experience to all of human-kind. It is almost never correct.
    
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  - Madzielle@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Human nature is evolutionary.
    
    Never say never.
    
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iii@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It has very large implications on society, many of which in direct contradiction with established progressive policy.

So it’s easier to ridicule and/or downplay, than to change course.

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- Mighty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I feel like that’s a easy statement for people to upvote. But I don’t really see an answer to the question. What is the course? Change what? And what established progressive policy?
  
  Not trying to antagonise you at all. Just trying to dig deeper
  
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  - DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    From the feminist side, there’s a lack of empathy towards men because “they did it to themselves” and from most other camps it’s “men are supposed to be tough, stop being a pussy”.
    
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  - mienshao@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Very much that. Didn’t answer you at all.
    
    To actually answer your question, people who don’t believe in the Male Loneliness Epidemic (MLE) think a lot of the “epidemic” is just shitty men complaining that nobody wants to be around them instead of doing any self-reflecting and changing their own shittiness. It’s tied to the incel movement (which is why you’re getting a lot of very snippy responses imo lol).
    
    Plus, a lot of the champions of the MLE are insufferable dudes who maybe are lonely not because of some societal epidemic but maybe because they’re just fucking assholes?
    
    Personally, I have no idea if there’s truly a MLE. I think a lot of it really could be asshole men online complaining that nobody likes them without recognizing that it’s their own actions causing their own loneliness. I also think it could just be the internet is ruining any sense of community and togetherness, and men are being vocal about it and tying this loss of community to men specifically, but idk, I feel like there isn’t some special issue of loneliness targeting men rn.
    
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  - SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Wealth redistribution would fix pretty much all issues with dating
    
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ThePyroPython@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
As a cis het man, the “male loneliness epidemic” is more a collection of symptoms of multiple problems without one source.

Those who claim a single source usually point to women because they’re a misogynist grifter looking chasing clout or to sell a scam course / supplement.

So without further ado, here’s my non-academic (and probably ill-informed) reckon based on conversations from online and IRL, lived experiences, and perceived societal norms. Have your large pinch of salt on standby.

Both men and women have been socialised that the only emotions men show is anger or laughter. Men have been socialised that the only emotion they can express in front of other men is anger and laughter. This means the amount of emotional support men can use from their support network is limited, they’re not practiced on how to deal with them, and either have to figure it out by themselves, be lucky enough to have a friend or partner whom they feel emotionally safe to express these feelings, can afford to seek professional help, laugh the problem off with self-depricating humour to repress the emotion, or turn it into anger usually as a result of succumbing to one of the aforementioned grifters.

Understandably, women have been socialised that if a man is showing emotion then that could turn into frustration and anger and so then they either have to risk taking on unpaid emotional labour or remove themselves from the situation. So sometimes you get this scenario where women want men to be more emotionally open but then recoil when they do because subconscious alarm bells start ringing that “you’re in danger” because there’s a decent chance that they could be.

Thankfully this is changing with younger generations, but it will take a generation or two.

Male support socialisation is centred around problem solving, not listening. Even if a guy has friends he can lean on emotionally, the conversations are usually focused around fixing the problem rather than providing a listening space and reassurance that those emotions are valid.

This is the main reason I pass off an “I’m fine” to friends and family because they’d try and suggest solutions to the problem rather than just listen.

Again, this is changing in society but these kinds of changes are slow.

Loss of third spaces. This affects everyone, not just men. But these third spaces where people can socialise without being forced to spend money are key for building communities. When people had disposable income or access to lines of credit it didn’t matter that there was an expectation that you had to pay for parking, food, drink, ticket(s) for the activity. Now, that’s less of an option for many people.

This hasn’t improved and will likely only get worse as late stage capitalism squeezes out anything that is unable or refuses to make more and more profit per quarter.

The lack of third spaces has moved friendships, courtship, and dating online. Whilst this has meant many people have made connections (platonic and romantic) that would have gone missed, the big tech companies have realised that anger and loneliness are good for business.

The social networks get far more engagement from posts that make people angry and therefore their advertising revenues increase.

Similarly, the dating monopoly Match Group, has realised that having more men than women on the platform means these men will spend money on these platforms for a chance at matches. So they purposely profile men who are likely to pay for things like “super likes” etc. and do nothing to make the experience more pleasant for women.

This isn’t anything new by the way, it’s the same reason some clubs make guys pay on the door and women get in for free, and it’s the same reason why there’s more female sex workers than male sex workers.

Men are willing to pay many and women don’t have to, but women have to put up with a lot of entitlement from the men who have paid for matches / to get into the club and be constantly fending off attention from men they don’t wish to reciprocate the attention to.

Without third spaces for general socialising, the only place to interact with potential partners is paid and will therefore skew financially in favour of women at the cost of their peace-of-mind.

This is more of a personal sentiment but others might empathise: I don’t want to feel like I’m harassing women.

I’m not cold approaching anyone when I go out because I don’t want to interrupt their precious free time they get in between the grind of life. I don’t want to interrupt them socialising with their friends or be creepy on the dancefloor by getting in their personal space, or even glancing over too much.

So I stay at arms length, avoid eye contact, and only approach or get close if I’m getting multiple very strong signals large enough to land an Airbus A380.

This is definitely just applies to me, but I have exceedingly low self-confidence, self-esteem, and low opinion of myself from a deep rooted depression. That’s a straight-up non-starter for trying to be with anyone else because nobody, man or woman, likes an emotional anchor dragging their mood down. I’m working on it but without paying a lot of money for therapy (the NHS waiting list is a joke), I’m stuck trying to work it out myself (see points 1 & 2).

So until I’m fit for socialising in that way, I’m purposely isolating myself in that regard.

Oh and for added flavour, I don’t want to be around watching society collapse as the world continues to burn not can I distract myself (or be ignorant enough) to not pay attention to it.

To be honest, right now my mind is telling just to wait for my mother to pass away then withdraw all my money, disappeare abroad, burn through it in pure hedonism then off myself once the cash has run out. At least this way I can enjoy a shorter life rather than suffer a longer one.
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- HurricaneLiz@hilariouschaos.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’ll be your friend; you can actually discuss things well 💜
  
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- tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There is one source.
  
  I recommend reading nurturing our humanity. Primates have two observable social systems. And they both exist in all societies along a spectrum.
  
  Domination and partnership.
  
  The more domination based a society, the more everybody suffers. Including those higher in the social hierarchy.
  
  Working class men, they are in a strange place because they have hierarchical status based on gender but not based on economic class. This makes it difficult for them to find solidarity with women. And thus more lonely in a system of loneliness.
  
  Communists would blame capitalism of course, and they’re not exactly wrong because capitalism is a domination-based system. Marx called this phenomena alienation.
  
  Feminists would blame patriarchy, and again they are not wrong it is a domination-based system.
  
  So on and so forth, but we can take a step back and look at ourselves as apes and see domination is the problem. The will to power.
  
  Buddhism calls this energy Mara, and would call the partnership energy Buddha nature.
  
  It’s all the same thing, it’s a strategy apes use to relate to each other and survive. Partnership is a better strategy. Assuming your goal is the health of society and the planet rather than personal gain.
  
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Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’ve seen two sides to it.

Side 1: “boo hoo nobody will fuck me because I don’t think other people should have rights”

Side 2: not having strong friendships/relationships because our society is built around capitalism, cars, and social media (this obviously applies across genders, side therefore is a generalized loneliness epidemic, not a male gendered one)

In my mind only the second side is worth listening to.

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- Tedesche@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Side 2 has not actual relevance to the problem itself. These societal tropes are not why men are having a hard time finding women. It’s just a societal trope posing as an explanation.
  
  Side 3 is the only relevant issue. Men are constantly told they need to be more vulnerable or their masculinity is toxic, and yet when they express themselves vulnerably, they’re punished for it.
  
  The problem is that the people touting the toxic masculinity narrative (feminists) don’t take into account how much women reinforce toxic masculinity.
  
  The deeper problem: feminists think they represent women to a far greater extent than they actually do. The fact of the matter is that most women don’t identify as feminists, and therefore feminists are representing liberal gender beliefs, rather than most women. Don’t get me wrong: I actually agree with feminists on balance, but their messaging is garbage, divisive, bullshit. Feminism is far too consumed by misandry to effectively argue their points in a way that could persuade the majority of men and women to support them. This is why they encounter so much failure when their cause is actually 90% right.
  
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  - Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Side 2 is very relevant. If you are lonely you get easily into very terrible sides of society and mindsets. I speak from experience. If you dont have a sense of belonging you also have no sense of self, but then come people that tell you to have a part in their group because of race, religion, nationality, or any other extremist reason.
    
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  - TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    feminist has never been a coherent set of beliefs of messages. it’s a clusterfuck of viewpoints.
    
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zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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- sanpedropeddler@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I do think it’s fair to describe it as a men’s issue. Because its usually describing loneliness caused by a disconnect with the image of masculinity you’ve been taught, and that which you actually exhibit. Everyone struggles with loneliness, but this is a specific kind of loneliness that is worth discussing in isolation.
  
  My main issue with it is how a lot of men seem to think its referring to women not wanting them. It’s a very easy term to feed their persecution complex.
  
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  - Mighty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Ah that last part makes sense as a criticism. Yes, I guess incels have taken this term to defend their sexism
    
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  - zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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  - Aeao@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I think it’s important to note the incels often mean “the women I think are hot won’t fuck me”
    
    They could find a girlfriend if they improved their personality or lowered their standards but they don’t want to do that.
    
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  - al_Kaholic@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Do you think it’s because the are conditioned from birth that being married, or having many successful relationships with woman will make them wealthy and happy?
    
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  - BussyCat@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Can you describe what you mean by “disconnect with the image of masculinity you’ve been taught”
    
    That is a very interesting statement but does not align with how it’s been described to me which is men can’t get laid and are horny and give up on women and just watch porn
    
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- turtlesareneat@discuss.online ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Gay dude here, it seems to be. We have the loneliness epidemic here too, but we’re actually organizing and fighting it, because we’re used to do that. Our cishet counterparts are definitely not equipped to do that. Women are socalized much earlier than boys, and they’re taught that the social order is theirs for keeping. Girls are simply raised to be better at this. By the time men realize what’s happened with the natural funneling of friends through the parenting years - usually those late 20s and early 30s where it suddenly starts to become really difficult to overcome the friendship hump.
  
  I can’t comment on the whole incels taking hold of this concept, because it’s something I’ve just had explained to me in the past week. I can definitely see the gender/sexuality lines on this in real life tho (I started and run a nonprofit to create community for GBT+ men in my state).
  
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hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Cis man here.

It’s an issue. It comes in lots of different colors and flavors but it all stems from social issues.

There’s lots of reasons, some men were never taught about social relationships, men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction thus giving them less experience, some men are ostracized when talking about their social struggles, and these are on top of preexisting environmental factors and preexisting mental conditions.

At this point it’s important to say: it’s not a contest for genders. Trans people have it hard, nb people have it hard women have it hard. It’s just that this is one of the rare times men’s struggles are not addressed properly.

I can tell you I probably have about 50 men in my life that I ko and wo are nice but if I had to talk to a man about my struggles socially, there are 2 men.

Now couple this with the fact 90% of men I had deeper conversations with told me they are struggling with depression and some of them having suicidal ideations, it is fair to assume we have a problem.

For me, the depression is always exacerbated by social isolation. It makes sense - not getting some feedback from other people can get you into crazy headspaces and there are thinking patterms that literally make you hurt yourself just to make it stop.

There’s another aspect: we are social creatures and as soon as you don’t get enough “social exposure” it’s harder to learn social cues and “get the vibe”, and other people notice. So the more you isolate, the harder preceding social interaction become and the harder it is, which in turn incentivizes isolating. A vicious cycle.

Now not everyone has these issues and I would never say that it’s the most important issue in our current society but every time I hear suicide statistics by gender it really puts into perspective that we should get to know those people who we have failed.

One thing I also wanna address is the idea that “men are never taught how to socialize”, because I think it implies a lot of things. First, I’m sure a lot of men are not, but a good number of men are. I was for example. It didn’t help, but that was never the issue for me. Second, it implies men want to be taught. I spoke to a group of 2 men and 2 women with mental disabilities about if they ever considered complete social isolation. The men said yes and the women said no. I think this is really significant and can give insight into why this is affecting men more than other genders. I would infer from this that women always see the benefit in social interaction, and men pursue social interactions rather as a means to an end. This might be a stretch but this supported by other observations of friends and family.

This topic is really important and I hope it gets talked about more - for the benefit of everyone who wants to see people become happier. The men affected by loneliness, as well as the people who deal with them.

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- squaresinger@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction
  
  Is that the case, because they are men, or because they are afraid?
  
  Piggybacking on thsi comment: it’s incredibly rare for men to get approached, it’s incredibly common for women to get approached.
  
  Both of these situations have downsides, but right now we are talking about men, so let’s ignore the downsides for women right now.
  
  If you are the one who has to approach somebody if you want to start up any kind of relationship (from casual acquaintance to friend, to romantic relationship), that means you will be on the receiving end of rejection, by definition. If you are in the “approaching” role, and you’d reject somebody, you just don’t approach them. So by definition, it’s quite rare when being approached that you are rejected by the person who approached you.
  
  So while women have to reject a lot of approaches they don’t want, men get rejected quite often. A socially inept woman is a wallflower, a socially inept man is a creep.
  
  If you have been rejected too often (and maybe too harshly), this might easily turn into a sour grapes situation (“I can’t do social interaction, so I don’t want social interaction”) due to fear of rejection.
  
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  - hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    What you are raising is a very delicate subject but let’s call it what it is: dating sucks. No matter your gender, there’s hurdles, it’s just really hard to find someone who’s putting effort in. If you’re a woman, it’s because lots of people matching you will be absolute garbage. A friend showed me who was writing her and most of it was weird and creepy. If you’re a man, it’s hard to find someone who wants to write with you period. And any other genders deal with an equally limited dating pool.
    
    It makes sense, it’s statistics, mathematically plausible, but damn it sucks. Unfortunately I think we are at the point where these conversation are bound to get eroded by inflammatory rhetoric. So these nuanced discussions are things for the future.
    
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- TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  men can be very social and still get nothing but negative feedback.
  
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chilicheeselies@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I think its pretty hypocritical for anyone who isnt a male to have an opinion on the validity of an experience they cant possibly have unless they transitioned.

Its like me having an opinion on have a period.

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- obsoleteacct@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Particularly when so many trans men who have lived as women previously have come forward to validate how much more isolated men feel.
  
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- subtleorbit@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’ll disagree a little here.
  
  My wife’s had surgeries from men that know waaaaaay more about her period than she does.
  
  That being said, they went to school for a decade and have another decade of experience learning specifically about a topic. They aren’t just some random business student that dropped out 2 weeks into semester one and writes their theses via comments.
  
  Small but important caveat. Otherwise 100% agreed. I have no ideas on periods because I’m not a woman or a Dr.
  
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  - tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah I also disagreed, I’ve read some very compassionate takes on men’s situation written by academic feminists.
    
    Bell hooks the will to change for example. Women can be experts on gender, and how systems of domination effect everyone. Men included.
    
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- Captainautism@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yet, men have dictated women’s bodies for centuries. Nah, you can shove that view up your ass.
  
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  - the_elder@midwest.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I reject your opinion. Men shouldn’t be dictating women’s bodies and women shouldn’t be dismissing men’s feelings. Two wrongs, etc etc, I shouldn’t have to explain this to an adult.
    
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  - A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    “MEN IN THE PAST DID BAD, SO ALL MEN FOREVER GUILTY”
    
    What a well reasoned argument.
    
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  - Goldholz@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    And that gives them a higher position?
    
    Taking your argumentation into another context but keeping the same intention: europeans had colonialised africa for over 100 years, means they cant critisise the africans nations politics?
    
    “X did z to y so y can talk freely about matters that affect only X but x not about y”
    
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- tree_frog_and_rain@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  On the other hand, belle hooks’, The Will to Change, is one of the most compassionate and understanding takes on the subject.
  
  So she has an opinion on the validity of the experience, and it is that capitalism and patriarchy is alienating for men, just like it is for others. Especially working class men.
  
  Nurturing Our Humanity, co-written by a female author, uses system science and primatology to validate what men experience in domination based societies.
  
  I know your point was more long the lines of critics shouldn’t criticize things that they don’t understand, but there are a lot of feminists that do understand and have an informed opinion, because they study how these systems of domination affect everyone, not just women.
  
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- MeThisGuy@feddit.nl ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’m more of a comma or interrobang kind of guy.
  
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  - GeorgimusPrime@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    And yet, your sentence ends with…
    
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RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I can only suggest reading some of “The Way We Never Were”. It’s a look at society and how it actually was vs the manufactured versions people today use to weaponize the whitewashed past as some sort of ideal. It’s not a psychological book or a deep analysis of society at all, but one of the things that struck me about it that relate to social circles and how it applies to men in particular is the loss of “the village” and the damage “self reliance” - the isolation of the American Family Unit by making it the Family Vs The World - has done to society and the ability of people to form steady social groups outside of work. This, and the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.

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- ameancow@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There are some people dropping their life stories in this post, which should be a barometer for just how lonely everyone really is.
  
  But yes, this. It’s all socio-economic. It’s capitalism ruining our world by forcing us to serve the system instead of having a system that serves us. It has been like this a long time, but if unmanaged, allowed to grow and consolidate beyond just the interests of a few companies here and there and allowed to turn into an all-consuming monster that takes away our politics, our social lives, our hopes and dreams, you end up with a very miserable population.
  
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  - RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes, it’s “divide and conquer” on a grand scale. Because we don’t have groups we’re never strong enough to rebel.
    
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  - zeropointone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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- EnsignWashout@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.
  
  That’s a great point.
  
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celeste@kbin.earth ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Most of the criticism of it I've seen is about how the concept's been warped to mean women aren't putting out enough for specific men. Other people will also point out that modern society is isolating in general. People who aren't men who are experiencing loneliness might have some skepticism about the idea it's a man specific issue.

There's also some wariness because topics about issues men face can translate for some men into a violent rage towards women. As seen with the involuntarily celibate movement.

People of all types can take genuine grievances and find a target to take it out on. Like income inequality translating to hatred of immigrants. And violence towards them. When you're the mistaken target of those grievances, it can be simplest to want to get away from the conversation unless the person starting it is clear they aren't targeting you.

Those are my guesses as to why people are skeptical.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1263527043 Some discussion in here about the topic, but also criticisms of the topic.

https://trinitonian.com/2025/02/14/unpacking-the-myth-of-the-male-loneliness-epidemic/ This opinion article criticizes how influencers drive the conversation, to its detriment.

https://www.fridaythings.com/recent-posts/male-lonliness-crisis-incel-men-friendship-mental-health This person brings up the idea that women are wary of the idea because it seems like they'll be expected to individually solve it regardless of their own wants and needs.

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- dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I had to scroll too far to find this answer.
  
  Most of the criticism of it I’ve seen is about how the concept’s been warped to mean women aren’t putting out enough for specific men.
  
  this is it in a nutshell. Men clearly experience loneliness, what’s problematic is the way “male loneliness” has been weaponized against women, as if it’s not a byproduct of patriarchy but actually a result of women’s neglect (or worse, an insidious assumption that women have an obligation to date men because they are lonely).
  
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- Mighty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Thanks! There’s not that many answers here to my question, just a lot of comments on the thing itself not about the criticism. So thanks for those sources.
  
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Arcanepotato@crazypeople.online ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Two criticisms that come to mind are:

the cause of the epidemic is the patriarchy, therefore it’s men’s own fault, i.e. the rigid gender roles and “man up attitude” are within the power of individual men to overcome and they just need to um… man up and break down those barriers.

the cause of the epidemic is men trying to cling to the benefits they would have otherwise under the patriarchy and it’s a reaction to non-men having more status and freedom.

(Before you hit reply please remember OP didn’t ask for an discussion on if these are real or correct - just what some of the criticisms are. I’m not saying I buy into either of them.)
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SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
There’s basically a lot of modern “feminists” who have decided that two wrongs make a right.

It’s good that women feel comfortable expressing themselves and trying to dismantle the patriarchy since it hurts us all. But many of them don’t stop there and end up crossing the line into misandry and blind hatred of men.

This results in these “feminists” saying some pretty bigoted shit like “white men can’t experience racism and sexism” as well as harassing men for seeking support.

This group mocks the male loneliness epidemic out of spite like other bigot groups.

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- leftytighty@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The “white people” idea has some merit when you consider that whiteness has usually been an arbitrary group of races and cultures that define the dominant group in that society. The whole “Italians and Irish weren’t once considered white” thing.
  
  Obviously individuals can experience hardship and you might even argue that preferring non-white candidates or affirmative action is harmful (I’m not going to, but you can).
  
  My position on this is that everything is a patch on fundamental inequality and I’d rather just get to anarcho-communism so we don’t have to solve 100 individual problems caused by historical racism and the capitalist machinery that lets that manifest as unjust distribution of wealth.
  
  Regardless of age and gender and familial success in past generations we should all be equal.
  
  (I’m not gonna argue that either)
  
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- yarr@feddit.nl ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  “white men can’t experience racism and sexism”
  
  A big problem here is that not everyone has a common definition for racism and sexism. Some definitions take existing power structures and historical context, and others don’t. A discussion about this topic should be started with what specifically each participant believes these terms mean. Otherwise you have two people talking about “sexism” but they are just talking past each other because they lack a shared understanding of the term as it is used.
  
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Preventer79@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Can we please leave gender war slop back at the old site please?

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blitzen@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Cis men have been, and mostly continue to be, the most privileged group in western society. So it’s easy to dismiss anything negative that affects them.

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NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
As a male who grew up around males, men are men’s worst enemy.

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- sunzu2@thebrainbin.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Wait until you find how young women interact with each other 🤭
  
  This is not a gender issue, it is a maturity thing
  
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rabber@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I think there is definitely a male loneliness epidemic but I think there is also an equally bad female loneliness epidemic that nobody talks about enough

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- Preventer79@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Modern online incel and radfem movements were created to pit them against each other and prevent them from uniting and creating positive social change.
  
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- madcaesar@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I think what’s happening is:
  
  40% of men are good people
  
  40% of women are good people
  
  The remaining 20% are pieces of shit that demonize and demean the other sex, which has caused the 80% to become scared and reclusive.
  
  Social media makes it seem like the percentages are flipped but they are not!
  
  The numbers are made up but you get my point.
  
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lightnsfw@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
A lot of people can’t see things from any perspective beyond their own limited worldview. If they don’t experience a problem, it doesn’t exist or it’s not that bad and everyone should focus on their problems instead or if they are experiencing something it must be happening to everyone. I think this is causing a lot of the conflict around this issue. There is also the fact that a lot of the men complaining about this issue come at it not so much as “I’m lonely” but as “I’m not getting laid”. Which loses them a lot of sympathy.

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morphballganon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Much of our media depicts men in successful relationships, handsome, with a good circle of friends, decent jobs etc.

Guys see this and think there’s something wrong because their reality isn’t matching that media.

It’s more exciting to think you’re observing a widespread social phenomenon than to admit your expectations were shaped by fiction.

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TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s socially acceptable to hate and be biased against men. Especially white men, and especially working-class white men.

That’s really all it is. If white women had a loneliness epidemic we’d never hear the end of it. If non-white women had a loneliness epidemic, we’d never hear about it.

It’s all about who controls the media.

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threeonefour@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Man Carrying Thing has a sketch on male loneliness epidemic. Someone tries explaining social issues to a guy who doesn't care about anyone but himself but starts to listen when he hears the word "male" added to them. Male lonliness, male climate change, male war. The guy now cares deeply about these social issues (because they affect him) except he thinks all the problems are caused by women not sleeping with him.

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Rooty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
On a related note, I wish we would acknowledge that men socialize different and that guys doing stuff together is therapeutic. Ruminating on emotions can have a negative effect in men, while work therapy can be much effective that talk therapy.

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sunzu2@thebrainbin.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Dunking on young men is in vogue and socially acceptable.

They won't pass reverse gender or race litmus test...

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figjam@midwest.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I think it has to do with the death of 3rd spaces which used to be an outlet for socialization. But as a man, I’m also not lonely. I have friends and acquaintances and I get to go outside sometimes.

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lemmy_acct_id_8647@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Men, by and large, create toxicity within their own circles. Male culture has a lot of issues and a lot of unrealistic expectations are put in men in US society. Some external, but the majority come from inside. The whole alpha male culture bullshit that permeantes it. There’s a lot, and I mean a LOT of good that can come from healthy male culture. But right now it’s like men have a branding issue where the loudest among them are also the worst (the Andrew Tates of the world).

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peoplebeproblems@midwest.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
“It’s stupid, it’s not a thing, it’s men’s own fault”

So as someone who recently learned my gender identity is demiguy, I can say it is and isn’t a thing.

Masculinity as a whole is a toxic concept in my book. A man is stoic. A man is strong, capable, and will put up or shut up. A man is attractive if he looks strong, acts strong, drives strong trucks, enjoys strength based sports, is emotionally strong, and essentially a lifelong warrior. A man can do anything he needs to by himself. A man can change if he needs to. A man has rough hands. A man dresses prepared. A man does not have too much emotional intimacy. A man is vulnerable only to the extent that he doesn’t appear weak.

All of those statements apply to the criticisms. It is stupid. Men aren’t socializing with hardly anyone. It’s hard to when you have to do the mentioned statements. It is a thing. Men do not have friends to call and shoot the shit with. Men are annoying when we text too much. Sharing real feelings is weakness. It is men’s own fault. It’s the nature of the characteristics of manliness.

The unfortunate side effect is that Incels have coopted it to defend their misogyny, and women who all have significant reason to be angry at this see it as terribly offensive.

To me? Yeah. I’m lonely. But it’s mostly because I didn’t understand who I was, and I didn’t have groups to fit in with. I like wearing tailored suits, but I love having soft hands. I like lighter clothing, cuddling, playing silly games with children, lavender and vanilla scented candles and candle lit baths.

But men can’t share any of that with each other even if they identify as men. Women are the only link to “softness” they experience. This leads to a compounding problem. Men need to accept that they will be alone unless they can connect on something OTHER than STRENGTH.

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RBWells@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Who says this? I am not a cis-het man and have not heard the criticism. I thought it was a known thing? Are you literally hearing it doesn’t exist, or is it more like they need to suck it up and/or that they are losers that need to go outside?

If it’s the second, that’s sexism. That’s where it comes from. Illogical ideas about men. Believe it or not, we have not overcome that yet. People have very twisted ideas about how men and women should behave and feel.

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HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
im one of those people who does not know what cis-het means? As far as I can tell cis means typical or normal or such.

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Matriks404@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I don’t understand how it’s just “male loneliness epidemic” in the first place. It’s illogical.

That said, when I started to be more open to the girl I liked, she ghosted me, and it seems that she doesn’t even want talk to me anymore. It would be much easier if I get some feedback what I did wrong, but I guess it’s just men who need to be more open and communicative, not women.

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