Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
Too many cars. No more third place.
What's the deal with male loneliness?
Submitted 2 days ago by ComicalMayhem@lemmy.world to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
Comments
dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 2 days ago
oyo@lemm.ee 2 days ago
I would posit that the internet and abundant screen entertainment contributed to killing third places far more than cars. The US has had a car culture for a very long time. (I’m not saying that makes it a good thing.)
isaaclw@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Maybe. But if people had the sqme amoubt of screen time and wqlked or biked, or took public transit there would be more forced interaction than there is in car culture.
I think they go hand in hand. And right now we got both.
jagged_circle@feddit.nl 2 days ago
What’s “third place”?
kandykarter@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
Places that aren’t home or work. Social places, like bars.
Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net 2 days ago
In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, libraries, gyms, bookstores, hackerspaces, stoops, parks, theaters, among others
Dogiedog64@lemmy.world 2 days ago
The colloquial “third place” is, as I understand it, a (usually) public place OUTSIDE of Home or Work where people can meet, hangout, play, or just exist without the expectation of spending money or being productive in some way. Examples would be Parks, Libraries, old-timey Public Houses and Cafes, Playgrounds, Forests and Wilderness within walking distance, and more.
Car culture killed a lot of that by removing the ability to reasonably walk places outside major metro areas, as businesses relocated to cities, and because they straight up increased the fatality rate for walking substantially. Internet Culture also killed it since you can just talk to your buddies through the Demon Rectangle instead of meeting IRL.
Murvel@lemm.ee 2 days ago
Oh, too many cars! Absolutely, makes sense…
SoftTeeth@lemmy.world 2 days ago
How much time do you willingly spend in public interacting with others?
There was a lot more of it happening before society required everyone to have personal transportation.
I’m an introvert so I am at home, work, or errands. I probably would talk to a lot more strangers if I had to use public transport and it wasn’t so expensive to do anything fun in public.
Pacattack57@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Bar culture and vining is still very much alive but I think people are less inclined to go to those places alone now.
nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
Others have explained it (places where social interaction is the primary intent - not home and not work) but I’ll add - old European cities (and most smaller towns) have some sort of public square. Many have lasted to this day and are still used. We can still build them, we but our chosen form of urbanization isn’t that conducive to it so we don’t. In North America in the 80 and into the 90s, malls we’re 3rd place. Then they started aggressively going after loitering in malls since simply sitting in a mall doesn’t produce economic activity. Many malls died and many are still dying. Those that survived achieved the - nobody goes there to chill anymore. Just to buy what they need, maybe eat, and then leave. Nobody plans to “meet at the mall” anymore.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Funny you should phrase it like that.
My uncle is a machinist specializing in automotive engine repair and modification. Over dinner last month, he mentioned that he’s used to seeing middle age customers for hot rod engine builds, midlife crisis “Always wanted to do this” kind of guys, but lately he’s been seeing men in their teens and twenties come in wanting heads ported and polished and shit like that.
They’re not spending money on women because women have made themselves impossible to want, so young men are turning their attention to things like cars.
dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 1 day ago
So you’re saying they want their heads polished by a man because women are unattainable? Interesting…
pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
There’s a few factors working together to cause it. There’s really two main ones: pressure to have sex and romantic connection, and an inability to be able to make those connections.
There’s tons and tons of pressure out there about being in a relationship and having sex. In modern day, a good example is Andrew Tate and the like, directly linking your self worth to having sex. Back when I was a male teenager during the days of rage comics and advice animals, it was memes about the friend zone. The core idea is the same, being alone is something to be ashamed and upset about. Being rejected is something that reflects badly upon you as a person. Young men are constantly being bombarded with messaging about how being a man revolves around sex and romance, and lacking these things makes you less of a man. In addition, so much media portrays sex both as this amazing thing on a pedestal and as something that’s not just commonplace but as something that everyone’s expected to be doing.
So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.
The other problem is actually making romantic or otherwise meaningful connections. So much more socializing is online these days, and there are a lot fewer women on the internet than men. It’s difficult to make organic connections with single women online, as random social media is by far mostly male and more direct closer friend groups tend to be made of single men and people in relationships (this is very arbitrary and circumstancial, it’s just what I’ve noticed). So, your odds of finding a single and compatible friend of a friend of a friend online aren’t great, and dating apps are complete trash for pretty much anything other than gay hookups. So, there’s not really a way for many young men to find romantic partners. Straight up hookups are easier, especially if your standards aren’t too high, but it’s an area a lot of young men aren’t socially comfortable with because it’s not something they’ve done a lot of, which makes everything much harder.
In the end, if there wasn’t so much pressure to be dating and having sex, then the difficulty of doing so in the modern day wouldn’t matter so much.
Personally, I’ve basically only had sex with men, because it’s so much more straightforward and the dating pool isn’t crazy lopsided. Though that’s at an end now too, because I’ve transitioned too much to be appealing to gay men anymore and haven’t transitioned nearly enough to be appealing to straight men or gay women.
lordnikon@lemmy.world 2 days ago
You make very good points also to add women in online spaces have incentives to pretend to be male or be ambiguous and not bring attention that they are women online to reduce the harassment they get. I’m pulling numbers out of the air but I feel 10% the internet that is male are assholes or children that don’t have any social skills yet and the other 90% get lumped in with them because we don’t reach out at all as to not come off as creeps like the other 10%. So you don’t hear about the polite respectful ones.
My hypothesis for this comes from the fact that most men I meet in real life are polite social people that respect women with about 10% being weird assholes. I also don’t blame women being guarded of all men as that 10% are true nightmare. I mean if there was a 10% chance a strange man you meet out in public was going to be Jason Voorhees. I would mace every man that came up to me as well. That’s how those assholes ruin it for everyone. Well except the grifrers that make it worse that is.
Also I’m married but we met online before tinder broke dating sites. So take what I say with a grain of salt just from an old man that sees the struggle of young people of all genders go through and I have empathy for them.
pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
Seeing Lemmy’s reaction to the bear made me want to crawl under a rock to be honest, so many people demonstrating that they’re exactly the reason why women don’t feel safe. A lot more than 10% of men on the internet are weird assholes, they just mask it well until they feel insulted. I’ve had a cis woman friend have to change her screen name because she’d occasionally get clocked and harassed, and a trans friend is really split on the progress she’s making with her voice, because now she’s also getting harassed when using voice chat in games.
Sorry mostly unrelated tangent, it just feels like gender relations have been backsliding
yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
I can’t really answer/reply to most of your comment but there is something about the last paragraph that I can respond to:
What about bi-/pansexual men? They exist [1][2] and there will be many that are attracted to people in between gender( expression)s.
[1] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality
[2] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexualitypixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
If I’ve met any/interacted with any/they’ve run across my profile on dating/hookup apps and they’ve been interested in me, they haven’t expressed it.
RBWells@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I do think the loneliness epidemic affects men more than women, and would argue it’s sexism harming men. On average, women are more likely to reach out, talk to people and family will check in on them if they are alone. Like, my husband (who is more outgoing than me and better at keeping up with friends) will call his mom or go up to see her, but leaves his dad alone unless he literally asks for something. Because men are taught it’s shameful to not be self sufficient, but women are taught to look for help if we need it.
Obviously this is not a straight gender split but on average it still plays out that way.
AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 1 day ago
Patriarchy hurts everyone
jeffw@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
lordnikon@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Could not agree more feminism is not human rights by another name and human rights is not achieved by anyone till every gender , race , sexual orientation, religion or lack of, ability or disability are equal.
jagged_circle@feddit.nl 2 days ago
You dont have to agree even. That’s just the definition of feminism.
hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 2 days ago
Btw, It's a lot more pronounced here on the internet. Since it's a filter bubble. If you dive into the real world, you'll find a lot of males also have healthy lives, a lot of hobbies, they're going out with friends, playing football once a week etc. I mean it's certainly there, and a big issue in society. All I want to say is, don't just look at some social media and draw conclusions from that.
rhacer@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I think there is a lot of wisdom here. I’m old, many of my meaningful relationships were formed before three was an internet. Now I use online tools to stay in touch with friends who are friends I have interacted with face-to-face, not people know solely online.
That’s not to say meaningful relationships cannot be owned online. I have met a number of people IRL who I originally met playing Football Manager or on XBox Live.
But online relationships are not a substitute for real face-to-face interactions.
I tell people that making friends needs to be intentional. It takes work and commitment.
FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
I’m not sure how usefulness the term “male loneliness” is. There’s a crisis of loneliness in every sex and gender, it’s a side effect of capitalism.
AnarchoNoAdjective@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Commodification of human interaction, enshitification of social spaces, environmental degradation. Stagnant wage growth vs record profits and increasing cost of living. Yeah that’s the profit motive at work. The unwillingness of most to see it, that’s the propaganda in service of the profit motive.
GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Ahhh yes the default answer to all struggles of life: Capitalism
Rhoeri@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Capitalism is responsible for pickiness now??
Loneliness is a side effect of being human. You think there aren’t lonely people living under socialism? Under communism? Or any other types of governments and socioeconomic systems?
For fuck’s sake. When people blame everything on capitalism, it dilutes the water of any real argument you may eventually have.
FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
Capitalism absolutely contributes to the loneliness crisis. For starters, it glorifies hyper-individualism, making it all about “every person for themselves” rather than fostering a sense of community or collective well-being. Stable, long-term jobs that used to provide social connections are being replaced by gig work and precarious employment, leaving people isolated and too burned out to build meaningful relationships outside work.
On top of that, capitalism pushes this idea that happiness comes from buying things instead of building connections. Social experiences are even commodified now—like dating apps and paid meetups—so relationships feel more like transactions. Cities, designed for profit, don’t help either. You’ve got people crammed into apartments, commuting for hours, and barely interacting with their neighbors. Public spaces that encourage connection are underfunded or replaced with malls and shopping centers.
And then there’s the mental health angle. Capitalism treats loneliness and isolation as individual problems, with solutions like therapy apps and self-help books—profitable industries—rather than addressing the systemic issues that cause them. Even social media, which could foster connection, is driven by algorithms that prioritize engagement over genuine interaction, leaving people feeling more disconnected after hours of scrolling.
At the end of the day, capitalism prioritizes profit over people. It’s no surprise that in a world focused on production, consumption, and competition, we’re all feeling so alone.
211@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
You have to admit the “leftist” ideologies tend to be about working together and supporting each other, and the “right wing” ideologies about encouraging individual accomplishments, though?
SparrowHawk@feddit.it 2 days ago
You can only think that way if you stop at the most superifical point of discussion and perception.
One way capitalism increases loneliness is with the job economy. We work too much, to blindly increase “profits” for someone who doesn’t care about us. We are restless and tired when we get home, going out costs too much (because of the same corporations pushing the economy and legislation that makes life always the more expensive) so we don’t go out the same.
Obviously capitalism is but one of the factors of modern loneliness, but it is heavily intertwined with a political will of weakening our resolve and hope and companionship.
When things go a certain way, you need only follow who benefits the most from it, and you will almost surely find the cause for that ill
CurlyWurlies4All@slrpnk.net 2 days ago
The atomization of society. The process of a society breaking down into smaller, isolated units, where individuals are self-interested and self-sufficient. It can lead to a feeling of being alone even when surrounded by people.
Dagwood222@lemm.ee 2 days ago
I was thinking about it this morning.
Look at Beatle-mania or Spice Girl-mania.
Back in the day, 100 million people were aware of one big thing and it brought them together.
Today with the internet, you’ve got a million different ‘big things’ each with 100 fans.
kshade@lemmy.world 1 day ago
We still have mass phenomenons and bringing 100 people together is plenty. What’s probably missing is local community.
SparrowHawk@feddit.it 2 days ago
Patriarchy harms and isolates men first so that they become the monsters that women fear.
The same way women are expected to look and act a certain way, so is for men, with different criteria.
Not by people per se, but by a sort of cultural subconscious, like a chaos creature from warhammer it exists because people believe in it, not necessarily because they agree with it. Everyone fears it, so most comply.
That’s why it is so important to destroy the social gender binary, the idea that we all neatly fit in well defined labels that apply to our body and mind. It’s just complete bullshit and internalizing it is one of the many ways this system traps us in its oppression
essell@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Absolutely agree.
One of the ways we’ve gone wrong so far is that people do need some guidance at least on what is possible and acceptable.
Just saying to young people “Be whatever you want to be” is unhelpful and confusing.
Role models of all kinds and representation matter so people who are figuring these things out as they grow have inspiration, ideas, can see who they are reflected in the world around them so they can put a name to the feeling.
If we can do that without shaming, blaming or excluding then people can find their way without the need of gender binary.
Caveat, not everyone is a suitable role model. Some people are warnings, not examples.
jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 2 days ago
There was a meme the other day about how Aragorn from lotr is the kind of male role model men need. Kind, shows his emotions, strong without being cruel.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Never don’t downvote posts with the word “patriarchy” in them. The right says “DEI hire” the left says “Patriarchy.”
jjagaimo@lemmy.one 2 days ago
The topic is multifacedted and I cant pretend to understand it fully, but to speak of some aspects as I understand them
There is a large gap between societal and cultural expectations of men, and the financial and realities for everone at the moment.
One part of societal expectations of men is that they expected to be independent, capable of getting and holding a job that pays well enough to buy a car, own a house, etc. The current reality is that many men are in debt after a university degree, have a hard time finding a job because 99% of applications get rejected outright, and get paid significantly less accounting for inflation and costs compared to their predecessors. It is impossible for the average person to afford a house on the typical wages these days without already having a significant other or by pooling resources. This has led to a large number of people who live at home and have less money to spend on things like going out.
I say this as someone who is fairly well off given my job and field, I get paid ~2x what some of my friends do and I could not afford a house within a 2hr drive of my workplace. I live at home with my parents and it fucking sucks.
Another aspect of bad cultural expectations is that men are expected to be cold unfeeling lone wolf types, and the idea that any sort of male bonding is “gay” which has caused people to spend less time doing things with friends. Men end up with smaller social circles and with less friends. With increasing costs and long working hours, they end up with little time to actually hang out together.
An additional aspect of the failure of cultural expectations to adjust the need to place blame. Blame has fallen on the individual man for being, among other things, lazy good for nothings, who are weak, ugly, etc.
If we look at the US, they have been abandoned by the left, both by the democrats (e.g. economy is fine, must be your fault), by the feminists (told to be vulnerable but called weak for being vulnerable, shunned at every instance because “sounds like a you problem” and “figure it out yourself”) and by their own parents who had an easier time.
This is part of why the manosphere became so popular. Men have been told for so long that they were the problem, many of them still just boys, whereas right wing pundits like jordan peterson, andrew tate, joe rogan, etc gave them targets to redirect blame. An excuse for “actually, its not my fault I cant find a date, its the woman’s fault,” etc. Note that this is not my personal belief. It also gives them a sense of community and people talk to that actually listen and make them feel heard and justified in their struggles.
The blame game has caused us to ignore several important systematic factors. The rise of individualism, stagnant wages relative to inflation and costs, and growing wealth inequality, as well as the erosion of community and mens safety nets are all major factors which have decreased mens mental health and increased male loneliness.
daggermoon@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I don’t know about the others but for me it’s because I’m shy as fuck and kind of insecure.
pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
🫂
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 2 days ago
There are multiple reasons for this. First of all due to the fact that a lot of infrastructure is based around cars society actively looses places for people to meet and hang out(I think this effect even has a name, but I’m not sure). Lack of places to interact with other people, and therefore lack of social interactions, causes a rise in loneliness. Then theres the problem with how men are supposed to act. We get told, that we shouldn’t “ask out” women in every day life, since its now considered creepy. For me this causes a certain type of being not sure where and when it is OK to ask someone out leading to me not doing it since I don’t want to get labeled as a creep. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to blame women for the male loneliness epidemic and there devinetively are a lot of men beeig creeps and asking someone out in absolutely the wrong situations, but this is something that needs to be said to understand the male loneliness epidemic. This also causes dating to take place online. Now the problem is, that online dating fucking sucks. Dating apps are useless, as long as you don’t want to sell your kidney to them, since they want you to keep using it. If dating apps were somewhat usefull they’d be out pf buisness quite fast.
Sybilvane@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
While I agree about third places, I think it’s interesting that you then focused on dating.
Loneliness means lack of friendships and family ties as well. I think a lot of men are focused on dating, and even when they are in a relationship, they use that as their only source of socialization outside the workplace. A lot of the barriers that exist for one are true for the rest as well, it is hard to make friends nowadays as an adult! There are so many people that stop trying, and it isn’t surprising.
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 2 days ago
I sort of misinterpreted the Question OP asked.
jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 2 days ago
I was thinking the other day there’s probably a pretty straight line between Match group owning so many dating apps, men’s unhappiness, and violence.
Like the apps create the illusion that you can meet someone and be happy, but their primary goal is to make money. They don’t try very hard to introduce you to good matches. They also haven’t solved the experience from the woman’s point of view. So men feel like they’re just shouting into the void, that people don’t like them, etc etc. Some of those people likely go on to become incels or do violence.
This isn’t to say that violent men are not culpable. They are. They retain agency. But Match group (that’s tinder, okcupid, hinge, match, plenty of fish, and more) is making the problem worse.
It’s like if there was a food shortage, and someone bought up all the grocery stores. Then they made all of them mazes and had half the cereal boxes empty.
Smoogs@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Interesting how you brought incels up here and how you think they are created from the apps.
There’s a huge portion of users that reach for such an app that may think ‘intimate relationships =happiness’ that require therapy to address why they are unhappy (and how they do relationships) before they should try a relationship on those apps.
While I don’t believe the apps aren’t necessarily what is causing this problem (any user decides on their own whether they are ready to date regardless of mental and emotional capability prior to joining) It certainly doesn’t help the situation but makes the compound result much faster. EG: I’ve seen the ‘ghosting’ definition change a lot once dating apps came into play. It used to be when you have a legitimate relationship developed and one person nopes out of it without warning. It had a legitimate victim that’s left out of the cold when another person essentially wasted their time and had a very hefty amount of inconsideration. Now it’s used in a situation if a dude gave someone the jeeb vibes on first meet and got immediately blocked after the one date or even before it makes it to that point and then calls it ghosting. And before we go the route of “well how would he know if no one tells him his behaviour is weird” : dating isn’t a survey. victims of the creepy behaviour aren’t therapists and it’s not their job. They are just on there to date too. They just want to feel safe. Their job at most is themselves. It’s not to curate someone else to become dateable. Lots of unsafe topics about the dating apps on documentaries around so people aren’t going to take it on themselves to provide feedback such as “what you said was inappropriate” without that going sideways with aggression and feeling even more unsafe.
If this is actually feeling like it’s happening a lot, I’d say: close the dating app, find a therapist, talk about why you’re feeling lonely as the problem might be more local than it what is going on the dating app. Cuz the one person whose job it is to give feedback on how you’re doing especially in situations of a relationship with others is a therapist.
It’s like you say: the apps are there to make money. They aren’t there with legitimate concern for their users whether or not they are ready for going into the dating pool. But that said: it really isn’t on the dating apps to do all that either, that is a question the user should be taking on themselves before joining the app and expecting all the results. Sometimes it is on the user.
nwtreeoctopus@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Referenced in a lower comment, but that loss of a meet and hangout place is often called a “third place,” as opposed to work or home. The show Cheers is a depiction of a third place in that it’s a place where “everybody knows your name” and the norm is staying and chatting, not spending a few bucks and running out.
There are some interesting suppositions about how this loneliness became more and more endemic with the decline in bowling leagues. People, men in particular, just have fewer regular hangout activities and so get more and more lonely. Things like bowling leagues, lodges, and the corner bar all were meeting spots to socialize and they have declined or morphed over the years, losing their original social role.
Smoogs@lemmy.world 2 days ago
This might be regional too. 3rd places in some cities are promoted as a social norm compared to others. More of a ‘night life’ where as some cities is like you have nothing much to do but go out in nature. I think those areas are a heavier struggle than others when it comes to socializing
jagged_circle@feddit.nl 2 days ago
There’s nothing inherently creepy of asking a woman on a date. Just ask them “would you like to go on a date sometime?”
Its creepy if she says no and you keep asking or otherwise act creepy about it.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 2 days ago
There are more relationships you can have than a girlfriend
j4k3@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Male loneliness is likely partially due to the same reason we are all here; this online outlet for social endorphins is why you were not building up a deficit over the last week and felt the motivation to finally call that person you were thinking about this whole time. That person was a passing thought, and the endorphins hit you might have received is ultimately less than you got from the austere but consistent dose you get from social engagement online.
The only problem is that you are not creating a meaningful personal social network in real life. When you really need such a network in practice, you face the reality of no one to turn to, or less depth and meaning to such connections. Real people are also complex and you must face the reality that no one fits your echo chamber bubble like a place like this. If you act like a down vote or stupid hot take comes across here to people in the real world… you find yourself back here with less options in the future.
lordnikon@lemmy.world 2 days ago
This is so true. We are living in the novel “Brave New World”
SendMePhotos@lemmy.world 2 days ago
People online can be fun and can’t hurt you
j4k3@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Don’t get disabled and have a place like this as your only outlet to connect with other humans. Anonymous and mob like negativity, especially from misunderstandings, can be hurtful when sharing some part of yourself or the only time you’ve said anything to anyone in a day or more from within a prison of loneliness you cannot escape.
xmunk@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Ah, I guess I’ll need to tell my teenage friend who never made it to adulthood after feeling trapped and ruined when an older man started an online relationship that isolated her from her family to… fucking grow a pair or something?
Healthy mature people can exist online in a positive manner. Not everyone is an adult and not every adult is mature. The internet can be a dangerous place and it’s unhelpful to try and dismiss that.
dukeofdummies@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I don’t even think it’s an exclusively male thing. It’s just getting harder and harder to meet people and mingle. Men are just feeling it harder and sooner.
It’s harder to meet people now. I think part of it is:
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That people used to be bored. You would make entertainment where you could find it, and two bored people can rapidly get entertained. Now you have a phone that makes you not bored, and de-incentivizes face to face interaction.
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There used to be more places where people interacted. Masons, elk lodge, unions, they would often serve alcohol at events, for dirt cheap. They were known as third places, somewhere other than work and home. One thing I hear from a lot of smokers is that the smoking areas are where people hang out to talk, and they do. It’s where conversations happen at a club. It gives you something to do when you’re not talking, a reason to stand somewhere close to people, and a perfect excuse to jump into a conversation. It’s kinda infuriating that it also shaves two minutes off your life -_-.
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People have less time. Younger generations are working multiple jobs, gigs with unpredictable hours, often times having commutes of an hour which turns a 9 to 5 into an 8 to 6, and spending all their vacation hours on the shit that has to be done on a weekday like the DMV or the like. How are you supposed to make a friend when schedules differ so much that a spreadsheet is required to make it work?
zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com 1 day ago
Male culture also tends to avoid building real relationships and hiding their feelings, and depending on how they look people are scared to be around them. Effort needs to be taken for most men to unlearn toxic traits of the past, which it seems like younger kids today are getting better at avoiding, but there’s definitely a handicap for most men here.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
What happens to a man when he shares his feelings? Has that ever gone well for any male since the evolution of meiosis?
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captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Society died but people kept having children anyway.
abbadon420@lemm.ee 2 days ago
Maybe lay off the Internet for a while, mate
dohpaz42@lemmy.world 2 days ago
For decades it has been ingrained in men that they are to be held to a very specific standard. Men don’t cry, men are strong, men have to take care of everyone else, stop your whining, I’ll give you something to cry about, be the alpha male, that’s “gay”, strength, weakness, and so on.
My father, and grandfather, both grew up with a code of silence. Feelings weren’t talked about, but relayed through their wives; except anger. That was given directly through corporal punishment (hand or belt).
I was always “emotional” growing up. I cried “like a baby” over “nothing”. No one ever came to check on me, or console me, during any of my “fits”. In fact, there were times I was ridiculed for it (sometimes by family members).
When I was 19 my grandmother died. I was really close with her; she was the only one who ever came to my aid and defended me. It tore me up so bad I could barely talk without breaking down. I was told multiple times that I shouldn’t be so upset, and that I was overreacting (by my family). Everything came to a head when all at once my cousins, aunts, uncles, and even brother yelled at me because I was being selfish and unreasonable, and insensitive to my grandfather because “he just lost his wife”.
Oh, and apologies are for “pussies”.
Anyway, it’s not really about me. I wanted to paint a picture for you as to why I’m lonely. Do with that what you will.
Smoogs@lemmy.world 2 days ago
As is echoed a lot in this entire post of replies: therapy isn’t really mentioned here. And that might be a key when it comes to male mental and emotional health.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Explain to me in actual words what a therapist is going to accomplish.
“Doctor doctor you’ve got to do something! Third spaces don’t exist, there’s no loitering signs everywhere you’ll be arrested for standing around talking, everyone my age had kids and their lives fell off, bars charge $9.50 for an ounce of bourbon and expect a tip and they play Nickelback loud enough to be heard from the moon so I’ve just been sitting at home alone drinking diet soda and playing Subnautica over and over again and while I utterly love this game it’s getting a little stale and Below Zero isn’t…good at all? So I guess I’m a little bored.”
“…Here’s a prescription for an SSRI, that’ll be $900.”
Apytele@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
As someone who works in mental health I’m actually with you but first I need to clarify that therapists don’t prescribe meds, psychiatrists do. Therapists usually have at least a bachelor’s usually a masters in one of a couple non-medical (or better stated, medical-adjacent) fields. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor who completed full medical school and a residency specializing in psychiatry. Even a doctorate in psychology is not a medical doctor. A therapist is going to talk to you and provide one of two basic functions: allowing you to vent / express your emotions to a completely supportive person, and teach social skills and emotional intelligence. Psychology = talking, psychiatry = drugs. This is an important distinction because while talk therapy is often more helpful than medications for certain disorders, it’s a lot more expensive to pay for an hour human emotional presence than having a doctor (even with their more specialized knowledge) listen for fifteen minutes then decide which neurotransmitters are maybe involved the most and picking a chemical from a list to throw at the problem and see what sticks.
Now even with therapy being more helpful for certain things, I don’t think it’s actually a good solution (or again, better-stated, a good long term solution). It’s definitely going to help with this kind of problem because the core issue is largely behavioral, not neurochemical, but first of all it’s putting our emotional wellness in the hands of capitalism which is… terrible. I cannot express how much that idea terrifies me.
But second of all, as someone who’s actually had 300h of therapy for a personality disorder, it starts to lose efficacy over time due to a lack of true emotional intimacy. Once you know the DBT manual front to back plus 100h of general psycheducation on pavlov and maslow, they’re not really doing skills teaching anymore, they’re just listening to you bitch. And listening to you bitch is… fine. But even that starts to lose efficacy when you start feeling like they have no idea what you’re actually talking about. I realized this recently when I had an extremely stressful experience at work and the therapist was like,“yeah that sucks” but my work friends were all like,“oh yeah she was waaay out of line you did exactly the right thing” because my therapist knew my account, but my coworkers knew more sides of the story and still sided with me and that just… meant a lot more.
And finally the other core issue is that true emotional connection, the kind humans truly crave, is reciprocal. A therapist has boundaries to maintain that are actually pretty critical to the function of the therapeutic process. The relationship being a completely one-sided support is the whole point. It prevents the abuse of the relationship by someone who knows both more about the person and more about human behavior in general to a person who is emotionally vulnerable for one reason or another. Having those boundaries preserves what therapy does the most good for. But that also means it’s going to feel hollow after a while because in the long term what people truly need is reciprocity so they can feel the satisfaction of also helping the other person (in more ways than a monetary transaction). Therapy can help you learn more about how to build those relationships, but it can’t replace those relationships, not in the long term anyway. I even see this in my own patients, I’m having to constantly reinforce boundaries that they’re pushing not out of malice but just because they’re instinctually craving a deeper connection than I can safely offer for either of our sakes.
Anyway I think you’re right, especially about the thirdspaces, but I do worry that people will be somewhat negatively reactive to the way you’ve expressed it here. When I’ve stated as much with this little background, even stating that my perspective is informed by extensive personal AND professional experience has pretty much every layperson getting out their pitchforks.
BmeBenji@lemm.ee 1 day ago
I think therapy helps as a remediation, but it’s not preventive nor does it fully solve the problem because ultimately it’s transactional and paying someone to listen is fully different from finding someone who listens to you that you also want to listen to.
insomniac_lemon@lemmy.cafe 2 days ago
See Bowling Alone.
Personally (and from a US shut-in perspective!) I’d take it further: the social contract is broken. When society has been molded to almost exclusively generate money, the closest to winning there is when you’re broke is trying to spend the least amount of money possible which surely will be solitaire confinement.
I don’t think there’s any easy fix, moving to a better area is an individual thing yet is also the core issue when it comes to transportation+rent+cost-of-living.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 13 hours ago
I think it’s because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.
BmeBenji@lemm.ee 1 day ago
Traditional masculinity dictates that men don’t share their feelings (with the exception of anger and aggression because that’s not a feeling that’s just being manly). Sadness, despair, loneliness, depression all will be commonly bottled up and left untreated which leads to deep-seated feelings of isolation. The cure has to be a change in social norms, including decoupling the ideas of being socially vulnerable with being feminine.
This is a gross generalization of the issue but it definitely describes my experience with it.
Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
I think you hit the nail on the head. To offer an anecdote, a locally beloved small business owner was recently diagnosed with cancer and was hospitalized. I asked one of his male employees if they’re passing around a hat to help cover his bills, or at least signing a card. The guy laughed and said “That’s a question for one of the girls. Men don’t do that kind of shit.”
It made me so sad. This guy was fighting for his life, and one of the men he’s closest with acted like he didn’t give a shit.
Econgrad@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Men have been taught not to approach women in public unless it’s online in a dating app. Women have always been taught not to approach men.
So no one is having relationships except for a very small portion of people who are disproportionately physically attractive.
Pair that with the hypergamy that women are doing where they only chase men out of their league now for the most part and it makes things that used to be normal and taken for granted like getting married and having a family exceptional jewels that are hard to come by.
Pacattack57@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I was about to write this exact thing and you’re already getting downvotes for it. People refuse to except reality.
There is an extremely large portion of men that are scared to put themselves out there because they are ostracized as creeps and fear the consequences of social shaming. “The worst she can say is no” is no longer true. The worst she can do is take a video of you while she publicly shames you for being a creep and trying to rape her.
Zron@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Met my wife online during the pandemic.
Dated a fair few women before her, meeting online and in real life.
I’m not super attractive, and pretty awkward, but I always make the effort to be polite and actually listen instead of waiting to talk, you’d be amazed how far that actually gets you.
Acamon@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I think the reason for down votes is that the comment suggests that issues with dating are the reason for male loneliness, when most people in the thread would argue that believing that ‘a romantic partner is the only acceptable source of meaningful emotional connection available to men’ is a big part of male loneliness.
ogmios@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
There’s been a concerted effort over the last several decades to push a men vs women dynamic online, and most men don’t buy into it, so it’s really just been people shitting all over men without consequence.
Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
I’ve thought about this a lot myself. I’m 12-15 friends/acquaintances down due to them deciding to step out of life in their twenties or thirties. On paper none of them seemed to be in too bad a way and yet…
There’s obviously the problem that having and discussing emotions is for girls and gays only (/s), but there must be more to it than that.
I think there’s an expectation (where I live) that men should be strong and stoic at all times - but, honestly, many of us are fragile little flowers, some of the time, but it’s seen (erroneously) as weakness.
In my experience most men are happy to talk about: “big screen tv’s, blunts, 40’s and bitches” to NSFW quote
but they can’t open up about emotions and feelings.
muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 2 days ago
Because everything that used to give men purpose nolonger exists or is nolonger viable.
felixwhynot@lemmy.world 2 days ago
One thing that helps loneliness is communities, especially those that meet IRL. I believe there has been a significant decline in club membership and social groups in the past decades. I think there are several factors behind this, including financial stress (and the resulting scarcity of free time).
One action that people can take is to join communities and participate in them! Even just online groups with similar interests if not IRL groups can help to make friends and feel connected. HTH
jagged_circle@feddit.nl 2 days ago
What makes you think this is a gendered thing?
Zorque@lemmy.world 2 days ago
What’s the deal with poorly explained questions?
Why don’t they provide more context for their perspective? Do they think people will magically know what they mean without them explaining it?
mke_geek@lemm.ee 2 days ago
If people are lonely it’s because they cause it themselves.
I’m in an activity group and it’s mostly the women of the group who are organizing the events. The men sign up to attend. The women are the ones who make plans and the men just go along.
Why don’t the men take initiative?
Even playing a board game, the guys just sit there playing a game. The women are the ones who introduce themselves, ask other people their names, what they do for a living, engage in conversation. This is all stuff men could be doing themselves but choose not to.
Some men isolate themselves using video games and didn’t join any social groups then complain that they are lonely. It’s like complaining you’re hungry when the food is right in front of you but you just won’t eat it – you’re expecting someone else to literally feed you.
Snowclone@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Part of capitalism is a need for high consumer culture. I grew up in a Latin American culture, and there are American sub cultures that also work similarly, there’s no nuclear family. Of course your relationship with your parents and siblings are very strong and important, but you have no problem living with grandma, or having your extended family live all very close together, my family were all in the same apartment complex in an immigrant neighborhood. I grew up with my cousins, like every day, if we didn’t want to play outside we’d go to different houses to see what everyone was watching on TV, we shuffle around with the different game consoles at different houses, food was entirely communal. After I got married to a typical American partner and started raising our kids together I was very shocked to find out that some food in the house is apparently owned by someone. And eating that food is a serious offense. Anyway, people used to live very close if not in a large family home with extended families. Why was this bad for capitalism? One large house owner by an entire family of 12-22 people securely, in which no one needs to buy their own home. We’re a few cars and carpooling is a simple task, where food is distributed to the hungry without a lot of steps between grocer and table, I was wearing clothes my uncle wore when I was an adult. When everyone dresses in a similar manner and suits and work close lasted generations, a pair of taken care of shoes or boots that just get repaired every few decades, are you starting to see the problem? That NOT good for capitalism. When the concept of the nuclear family took hold there was a huge boom in home conduction, hardware stores, department stores, companies made fortunes off baby boomers, all this individualized products, razors, deodorant, soap, every stage in life requires a new variety of soap, 10 kinds of cereal to pick from, new shoes every 6mo.
Humans are Apes. Every other ape on the planet lives in large troops that mutually aid eachother and who is boss, and who is contending to take over, who has first pick of food and women, it’s based on what? Being hella aggro? Being bigger, stronger, what? Usually it comes down to who has the best social skills, who ever bonds with the most members of the troop, because when a fight ensures, it’s not about who is smart, cunning, or strong, it’s about how many apes jump in on your side. We are DEEPLY social animals. The nuclear family isolated men the most. Toxic masculinity harms men on a HUGE scale. Quietly, emotionless, provide a secure home, two or more cars, and income to spare to the family you alone protect. It’s pretty lonely. Many men don’t even have friendships, one of the worst aspects of toxic masculinity is that it’s a sign of weakness to be kind, caring, and nurturing. You know. Those aspect of social life that make every other species of ape successful. So where do men locked out of this already broken system go? They look for groups that will accept them, invite them out, bond with them socially. And who’s funding all these far right groups that do this with millions of dollars? Russia. Far right billionaires and millionaires who don’t want these men talking about WHY they are locked out of the system. If you look around you can also notice a lot of small service business aren’t run by white people. You see Hispanic, Asian, east Indian people, who ‘‘are all packed into that house like sardines’’ with a staff of related people doing the work. Consumer culture is a dead end. The Nuclear family is a dead end.
hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world 2 days ago
This is a video about it, which I think takes a very sobering approach to it. Her humor tends to be very dark, but if you look at the comment section, she seems to be hitting it head on.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv8VuLpKN4
Now for solutions, I don’t know anyone who talks about it beyond the basics of “listen to men” and “give them a healthier and less judgy space to develop social skills”. But that’s probably because this is such a complex issue and there seems to be no simple solution.
Natanael@slrpnk.net 2 days ago
Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture
1984@lemmy.today 2 days ago
I think maybe those words
211@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
I’m confused. Are women on social media interfering on man-to-man friendships?
Alteon@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Men that have been captured by the “alpha” and “masculinity” culture don’t realize that it makes them fucking radioactive. They are literally the reason why women choose the bear. Boys thinking that they have to be hyperbolic, over-aggressive, possessive, manipulative assholes in order to be a “man” are the exact reason that they are lonely.
These men don’t have a god given right to just “have” a girlfriend.
Natanael@slrpnk.net 2 days ago
No, male culture has changed far more due to propaganda, etc.
folkrav@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
Your first hint that this is a naive take is that you’re brushing off a societal issue to a single, external factor.
scarabic@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Huh??? We’ve been uncommunicative, miserable fucks for much longer than the internet has been around.