Gil Hochberg described “shooting and crying” as a soldier being “sorry for things I had to do.” This “non-apologetic apology” was the self-critique model advanced in Israel in many politically reflective works of literature and cinema as “a way of maintaining the nation’s self-image as youthful and innocent. Along with its sense of vocation against the reality of war, growing military violence, occupation, invasion, [there was] […] an overall sense that things were going wrong.”
Sympathy for their PTSD
Submitted 1 year ago by IndustryStandard@lemmy.world to aboringdystopia@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f7bef2b5-8f4b-41d6-86e0-0d791a58d4aa.png
Comments
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 year ago
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Interesting read thanks.
Karen Grumberg noted that “the Zionist soldier, a man with a conscience, loathes violence but realizes he must act violently to survive; the dilemma causes him to weep while pulling the trigger. Looking inward, he despairs at the violence he feels compelled to enact this way because he fears his moral corruption.”
Amir Vodka wrote “It typically depicts the IDF in a critical light, as a traumatizer of young soldiers, yet the genre itself is often criticized for turning the assailants into victims, and in a sense allowing the continuation of war under the guise of self-victimization.”
masquenox@lemmy.world 1 year ago
So, basically every war movie the US makes about itself.
masquenox@lemmy.world 1 year ago
They don’t seem that traumatized when they are literally filming their own war crimes and posting them on Instagram for all the fascist clicks.
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 1 year ago
The only way I could rationalize the OG Nazis…trying to get into their head and how they managed to do the things they did…was that they were straight up brainwashed.
It sounded crazy when I was younger. Like, something out of a comic book instead of a history book.
But as I watch and try to critically understand how the modern propaganda machine works, I can’t help but wonder if maybe I was right.
SasquatchBanana@lemmy.world 1 year ago
OG Nazis experienced the same thing. Killing people on en masse mentally fucks with your head, even if the individuals you kill are perceived as vermin/degenerates. This is why they moved on to using other means that is more dehumanizing i.e. pressing a button for the gas chamber
masquenox@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Brainwashing is perfectly easy. Just ask the US Marine Corps.
That creepy thing people in the US do, hanging flags in front of their houses? That’s brainwashing. That’s what it looks like.
That’s how easy it is.
autriyo@feddit.org 1 year ago
Not sure if “OG Nazis” only include the first generation, but their Children were pretty much brainwashed.
You can look up “Hitler Jugend” If you want, that organisation basically indoctrinated children while growing up. Right when humans are the easiest to manipulate.
I’d wager that, maybe, you were right.
half_built_pyramids@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Sympathy for the devil
Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 1 year ago
and if he had refused to do as commanded would he have been shot himself?
orcrist@lemm.ee 1 year ago
[deleted]Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 1 year ago
there was a story of an iraq war soldier killed by his own squad a couple years ago. thats what put the thought in my head
4lan@lemmy.world 1 year ago
No he would sit in a jail cell. As a trained soldier.
Essentially a perfectly risk-free environment. But he chose murder instead
deathbird@mander.xyz 1 year ago
I hope these IDF soldiers wake up. You can’t kill people without killing part of yourself.
4lan@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I’m seeing so many parallels to our false wars in the Middle East. The vast majority of US soldiers who died did so by suicide.
Also netanyahu trying to create more generations of terrorism so he can have forever wars that keep him in absolute control. That’s literally what we did, he is copying us play by play
sOlitude24k@lemmy.myserv.one 1 year ago
Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.
“Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war.”
It’s an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book “On Killing” by Dave Grossman. It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims
Settlers enlisted in an occupying force that seeks to claim more territory over the bodies of the native occupants are not victims.
Liz@midwest.social 1 year ago
They have mandatory service, though I’m sure very few people serving their mandatory term are a part of the invading force.
Liz@midwest.social 1 year ago
Dave Grossman is full of shit. This is independent to the potential trauma from killing people (there’s a wide range of reactions to that experience). Dave Grossman is full of shit.
EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 1 year ago
Grossman
What a fitting name. Because he is quite gross
WoodScientist@lemmy.world 1 year ago
but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Sure, but couldn’t the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders.
Jtotheb@lemmy.world 1 year ago
The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.
sOlitude24k@lemmy.myserv.one 1 year ago
It absolutely could, and should. I’m not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it’s uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.
uis@lemm.ee 1 year ago
but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Caramel Marks, I mean Karl Marx, would probably agree with you.
Zacryon@feddit.org 1 year ago
Humans are not made to kill other humans. And those who fight the wars of the mighty, are those who are among the ones who suffer the most.
War is really stupid. And it’s astonishing how we continue to be such a stupid species. Given how far we’ve come, one would think that we’ve finally realized how much humanity could achieve if we were working together instead of killing each other.
By the way:
It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide
The international court of justice has not ruled on this yet, but continues to observe and investigate whether such genocide allegations could apply.
However, I am not a fan of anyone who practises or participates in wars and so easily tolerates the deaths of innocents.
masquenox@lemmy.world 1 year ago
The international court of justice
We don’t need a pack of overpaid bureucrats with fancy titles to tell us whether a genocide is occuring or not. It’s a fucking genocide. Plain and simple.
zbyte64@awful.systems 1 year ago
There’s literally video of a child getting cut down, then when help comes for the child they blow them up with a bomb. That’s some psychopath shit.
abracaDavid@lemmy.today 1 year ago
Lmao are you really trying to act like it’s not a genocide because some bureaucratic board has been bullied into being quiet about it?
Fedizen@lemmy.world 1 year ago
“cop needs therapy after shooting unarmed child”
Krauerking@lemy.lol 1 year ago
“So, there is no such thing as citizens,” he said, referring to the ability of Hamas fighters to blend with civilians. “This is terrorism.”
Fuck the IDF
TBi@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Well when he said “this is terrorism” he was correct. Just that it’s the IDF terrorizing innocent people.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
So, I hate to be this guy for Israel. But there are legal ways for this to have happened. I know the first picture in all of our heads is them running over prisoners. But it is a valid tactic to collapse your enemies trenches or building on top of them. The US has been doing that since at least Vietnam. Armored bulldozers are, of course, uniquely pretty good at this tactic. Although it is usually a tank with a bulldozer blade attached to the front.
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Here is a video of the soldier in the bulldozer with his friend in gaza bragging they destroyed 5000 houses files.catbox.moe/sgmc5b.mp4
The friend already killed himself.
RunawayFixer@lemmy.world 1 year ago
They’re gloating about it, absolute monsters.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yeah that’s not a great visual. But the house was clearly already badly damaged and had explosives in it. This is standard for combat clean up. We can certainly talk about why 5,000 houses were damaged bad enough to need demolition though.
Dragonstaff@leminal.space 1 year ago
I’m sure this guy operates his bulldozer with all of the care and concern for innocent human life as the IDF bombing campaign that by their own reports have killed twice as many civilians as militants.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yup, they get very little benefit of doubt at this point. I’m just pointing out that it’s not 100 percent straight to war crime from this description.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
Except we already know that they were doing this.
Krauerking@lemy.lol 1 year ago
“Everything squirts out,” he added.
Zaken says he can no longer eat meat, as it reminds him of the gruesome scenes he witnessed from his bulldozer in Gaza
Yeah. This ain’t that.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
That logic doesn’t follow. Did you think collapsing a trench means you don’t see anything?
TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 1 year ago
Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
She was also a long time ago. Why not use the unarmed American they shot in the head recently?
nonentity@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Some have labelled Israel as a rogue nation, but their actions are explicitly and implicitly condoned through other nation’s support and silence.
voldage@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I don’t think that’s really the case though? I’m pretty sure most nations condemned Israel except for USA, but USA blocked all attempts from anyone to do anything. And when USA says that commiting genocide with their weapons is on the table, I doubt any country wishes to find out what would happen should any concrete action against Israel be taken. It’s a big part of the reason why everyone calls USA complicit in genocide of Palestinians.
Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I have no reason to believe Germany’s government condemns Israel’s actions right now, and the way they always point out its right to defend itself, I suspect they actively condone them…
Linktank@lemmy.today 1 year ago
Just to be clear, everyday US citizens do not condone this shit.
NutWrench@lemmy.ml 1 year ago
Yeah, I suppose it was traumatic, bombing food relief convoys and hospitals. You could have avoided a lot of that PTSD by refusing to follow illegal orders.
Also, get farked, CNN.
Eiri@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
Didn’t the US use to invade countries for much, much less of a reason than that? Sheesh.
These days I’m finding myself agreeing with the Iranian government more and more often because of Israel’s crap. I don’t like agreeing with the Iranian government.
masquenox@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I don’t like agreeing with the Iranian government.
I don’t like agreeing with Hamas, either. But if the rest of the world isn’t interested in lifting a finger against this genocidal excuse for a state, I guess that’s just the way it’s going to have to be.
Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 1 year ago
No, human rights and that stuff hasn’t been the actual reason for any invasions for a long time. It might have been used as an excuse, but it’s generally really about power and/or economics.
Read about what actually happened in places like Guatemala, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua, and Panama. Think about what the actual reasons are for opposing communism, especially considering the timeline of what was known when recruiting Nazis for the opposition to (former ally) USSR, invading Korea, and invading Vietnam.
If you only want to dive into one of those, just look up Guatemala and Edward Bernays (a massive piece of shit).
explodicle@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
I find myself asking “How did I fall for this? How did this seem normal my whole life until now?”
We didn’t hear the whole story during the Holocaust. Now we’re getting live videos and firsthand accounts of steam rolling crowds.
What the fuck is wrong with a person to be OK with this at all.
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Mis/under -education (propaganda), lies through omission.
Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Poor guy. Did he also have to murder the little baby terrorists and their sobbing, horrified terrorist moms and terrorist sisters too? Poor fella. I hope he can muster the strength to do the right thing.
Fuck Israel and fuck conservatives (including neoliberals) who gleefully support this genocide. The wrong people are being erased.
deathbird@mander.xyz 1 year ago
There’s no such thing as a “correct” people to erase.
Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 1 year ago
When it comes to people committing genocide, I disagree.
JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Well, did he have a choice?
deathbird@mander.xyz 1 year ago
Everyone has a choice.
TrueTomBombadil@lemmy.world 1 year ago
He has a choice now. The choice to end his own pathetic life or burn in mental anguish for the rest of his life. I hope he chooses whichever path leaves him and his the most miserable.
Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 1 year ago
He called the families he murdered terrorists. He’s lying about being “traumatized”.
Every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation. The only terrorists in this story are the settlers committing genocide on the local residents.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Yeah you can go to prison
Disaster@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
ah yes… “I was only following orders” - Otto Adolf Eichmann
Fosheze@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Fosheze@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Ah yes, those hundreds of “terrorists” all nicely lined up in the road.
winterayars@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
How the fuck do you run someone over with a bulldozer… no matter what i think of it’s not coming up good…
mlg@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I swear this is almost trying to parody the title of the article about the 19 year old who was burned alive
jonne@infosec.pub 1 year ago
I’m sure we’ll soon get an article about how the pilot felt sad about bombing a hospital.
Aceticon@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Something about he at the end of the day going home to his young wife and 5 month old baby with a sad face.
kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
I hope not that he dies but that he lives to watch everything he cares about crumble to dust as he is powerless to the winds of change
Gloomy@mander.xyz 1 year ago
Dude killed himself.
kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
Dude also killed a lot of people
Disaster@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Just as Chris Hedges predicted.
PugJesus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You would think it would be easy to find some poor conscript fuck who didn’t run over civilians in a bulldozer struggling with the fact that they were coerced into being part of a genocide, but no, CNN goes with the guy who crushed human beings. Even as attempted hasbara, that’s some high-level incompetence in CNN.
jonne@infosec.pub 1 year ago
CNN has to run every story through the Israeli censor in their Jerusalem bureau. The only mainstream outlet that doesn’t go through that process is Al Jazeera, and Israel closed their offices.
AshMan85@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Aww, war criminals
TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
“IN THE HUNDREDS”
Good god someone please operation overlord these mother fuckers.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
In the aughts, once the US torture programs started getting public attention around 2003, I did my obsessive thing on the German Reich and the Holocaust.
During Operation Barbarossa, the SS was experimenting with eradication methods. The most common was the porgrom, endorsing the locals to massacre the undesirables. When they weren’t undesirable enough or it was the whole village, the einsatzgruppen (death squads) had to come do it, usually forcing them to dig a mass grave and then executing them along the side.
It was messy and brutal and gross, and there was high turnover among the death squads (the US has a similar problem with its combat drone operators). And this was a major problem.
The SS experimented with other ideas, including deathwagons that would pipe the vehicle’s exhaust into an enclosed chamber to kill dozens at a time, but even that was too harsh and too slow.
This is how the prototype genocide machine was made at Auschwitz. The program was aet up so no one who interacted with the live prisoners also interacted with the dead corpses. The guy who pushed the execute button was two persons removed in the chain of command from the guy who signed off on the execution order, and none of those people had to face the prisoners or the outcome. The point specifically was to make the process of massacre less stressful for the people involved.
Dasus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Everyone: “It seems we, as humans, have a pretty strong dislike of executing other humans. A biological aversion to commiting genocide, one might say.”
Nazis: “Halten Sie mein Bier!”
But in all seriousness, your comment reminded me of “The Banality of Evil”.
For when I speak of the banality of evil, I do so only on the strictly factual level, pointing to a phenomenon which stared one in the face at the trial. Eichmann was not Iago and not Macbeth, and nothing would have been farther from his mind than to determine with Richard III ‘to prove a villain.’ Except for an extraordinary diligence in looking out for his personal advancement, he had no motives at all… He merely, to put the matter colloquially, never realized what he was doing… It was sheer thoughtlessness—something by no means identical with stupidity—that predisposed him to become one of the greatest criminals of that period. And if this is ‘banal’ and even funny, if with the best will in the world one cannot extract any diabolical or demonic profundity from Eichmann, this is still far from calling it commonplace… That such remoteness from reality and such thoughtlessness can wreak more havoc than all the evil instincts taken together which, perhaps, are inherent in man—that was, in fact, the lesson one could learn in Jerusalem.
— Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil
Flipper@feddit.org 1 year ago
There was a Sonderkommando of Jews in Auschwitz forced calm down inmates before murdering them and to rob and cremate them afterwards. Exactly to keep the psychic toll lower on the SS and to ensure fewer witnesses.
BedSharkPal@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
My opinion of humanity was already so low…
alleycat@lemmy.world 1 year ago
MellowYellow13@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Gee I fucking wonder why you have trauma and PTSD??? Fucking moronic fucks, zero sympathy
DavidGarcia@feddit.nl 1 year ago
reminds me of this bit:
“not only will america go to your country and kill all your people but they’ll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad.”
egrets@lemmy.world 1 year ago
For context, this is from Frankie Boyle’s 2016 Hurt Like You’ve Never Been Loved.
skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 1 year ago
Waltz with Bashir (2008]
can@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Article link and a mirror
carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
i sincerely hope his actions haunt him for the rest of his pathetic life
febra@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Oh, I can’t wait for the sympathy piece on Auschwitz guards to drop any day now. They must have seen some very, very, very difficult things too, poor souls.