Education doesn't increase intelligence by making people memorize things, but by constantly reminding people that they might be wrong.

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• Canconda@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Memorizing data doesn’t make one smarter… but learning concepts absolutely does.

  The classic, “we’ll never need this in adult life” is math like Pythagoras’ theorem, or factoring binomial equations (remember FOIL?). We don’t learn that math because it’s practical for adult life… we learn that math so that grown ass adults don’t think someone using algebra is performing black magic.

  Seems silly… but it’s just like how many folks never learned past middle school biology and now think XX&XY are the only chromosomal possibilities.

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  • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    How about we meet in the middle and say “learning the concept that you might be wrong will help your intelligence”?

    My mother who “allegedly” graduated high school has more confidence than anyone I know and will say things like “you can’t divide a small number by a bigger number” or “temperatures don’t have decimals, only full numbers”. Then as you stare at her blankly trying to figure out if she’s joking or not, she’ll tell you you’re clearly not very smart if you don’t know that

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    • Canconda@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      IMO you’re just describing a closed mind versus an open mind. Learning the concept that you might be wrong is fundamental to having an open mind.

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    • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I think that kind of thing is more cultural than anything. Probably she doesn’t care very much whether it’s actually true or not, and feels she’d be losing face by being anything but confident about it.

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  • shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Funny enough, it was an agricultural class where the utility of the quadratic equation hit me. Professor didn’t even call it that, but we used it to calculate maximum efficiency in fertilizer spread.

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    • Canconda@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      o shit. Im gonna be expanding my garden next year. Didn’t know Id need my math text book haha

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  • SmartmanApps@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    remember FOIL?

    A lot of adults don’t, then proceed to argue about order of operations, having forgotten that Brackets have to be all expanded out before doing anything else at all.

    We don’t learn that math because it’s practical for adult life

    Yes we do. I use Maths every day, quite separate to the fact I teach it.

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    • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      We don’t learn that math because it [isn’t] practical for adult life

      I love this argument because it’s like a guy who catches and eats raw fish saying that we don’t need fire. Like, man, you’re not even trying to use it, though.

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    • Canconda@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I mean Pythagoras is useful but what are you foiling? Or are you misconstruing “that math” for “all math”?

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  • captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Students asking “why do we need to learn this” or worse graduates who proudly proclaim “Day 19,337 of never using the quadratic equation” are a symptom of teachers who haven’t read their Thorndike.

    Learning is an active process. It takes effort to do. People do not like being made to waste effort. Students will be much more effective learners when they understand the value of the lesson to them in their lives. “You never know when this will come in handy” is not good enough. This is Thorndike’s principle of readiness. And especially high school teachers are bad at satisfying it.

    Math teachers get it very often, because for some reason we approach teaching math to a nation full of hormonal teenagers as if they all want to grow up to be mathematicians. Starting in about the 7th grade they stop giving practical examples and teach math as a series of rules to be applied to contextless problems, and to the student it feels like years of pointless busywork.

    And while I can’t claim to have ever factored a polynomial in my daily life since leaving school, I did recently come up against the order of operations. I calculated the width of some cabinet doors, and I factored in the gaps between them wrong. 3 doors, 4 gaps between the doors. I did door_width = opening_width / 3 - 4 * gap_width. When I needed to do door_width = (opening_width - 4 * gap_width) / 3. In the first case, you end up subtracting all 4 gap widths from each door. I would be better at math today if you’d explained it to me like that when I was 12.

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    • SmartmanApps@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      we approach teaching math to a nation full of hormonal teenagers as if they all want to grow up to be mathematicians

      No we don’t.

      Starting in about the 7th grade they stop giving practical examples

      No we don’t. Just check out some final exams to see plenty of them still included.

      if you’d explained it to me like that when I was 12

      Most teachers do, but some aren’t very good, especially in the U.S. where it’s not even required to have Maths qualifications to be a Maths teacher.

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• captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I am a flight instructor. I had to study the fundamentals of instruction to earn that title, so I believe I can speak with some authority on this subject.

  When discussing facts, figures and such, we consider four levels of learning. The easiest, fastest and most useless is rote memorization. Rote memorization is the ability to simply parrot a learned phrase. This is fast and easy to achieve, and fast and easy to test for, so it’s what schools are highly geared toward doing.

  An example from flight school: A small child, a parrot, and some Barbie dolls could be taught that “convective” means thunderstorms. When a meteorologist says the word “convective” it’s basically a euphemism for thunderstorms. You’ve probably already memorized this by rote. You would correctly answer this question on the knowledge test:

  Which weather phenomenon is a result of convective activity?

  A. Upslope Fog

  B. Thunderstorms

  C. Stratus Clouds

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  • nuggie_ss@lemmings.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I agree, and hopefully this will help put things into perspective.

    Theory is not a substitute for experience.

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  • Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Love this comment. If anyone knows anything about machine learning or brains, this resembles modal limitations in learning.

    A lot of our intelligence is shaped around our sensory experience, because we build tools for thinking via the tools we’ve already built, ever since baby motorbabbling to figure how our limbs work. Why Hellen Keller had such trouble learning, but once she got an interface she could engage with for communication, things took off.

    We always use different tools, but some people don’t see colour. This doesn’t mean they are stupid when they answer differently in describing a rainbow.

    Also why llms struggle with visual/physical concepts if the logic requires information that doesn’t translate through text well. Etc.

    Point being, on top of how shitty memorization is as the be all end all, learning and properly framing issues will have similar blindspots like not recognizing the anvil cloud.

    This is also why people in informational bubbles can confirm their own model from ‘learning’ over people’s lives experiences.

    Like most issues, it doesn’t mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but epistemic humility is important, and it is important not to ignore the possibility of blindspots, even when confidence is high.

    Always in context of the robustness of the framing around it, with the same rules applied at that level. Why “nothing about us without us” is important.

    But also we gotta stop people giving high confidence to high dissonance problems, and socializing it into law. We should be past the “mmr causes autism” debate by now, but I’m hearing it from the head of health in the USA.

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  • SpicyLengthiness@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Ok, but you never finished the example with the child, parrot and barbie dolls. What is the punchline there?

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    • captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Children can be taught to repeat something even if they don’t understand it. So can many species of parrot, they famously mimic sounds they hear including human speech without understanding the meaning behind the sounds. And I seem to remember a model of Barbie doll that had a little sound recorder built in so she can “really talk.” These things can repeat something they’ve "learned’ without any deeper understanding.

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• AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I think part of intelligence is the ability to recognize patterns that can be abstracted and generalized, and memorizing data is just one means of making it available to your brain for pattern recognition.

  Like, if you come up with a possible theory, the quickest way to test it is to see if anything you already know would invalidate it; so the more you know, the more quickly you can sift through possible theories.

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  • ByteJunk@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I don’t think it’s related to patterns, it’s the methodology.

    Sure, there’s some groundwork that needs to be memorized in different fields, but this is like learning your first words. These are necessary so that we can communicate with each other, and they serve as building blocks upon all rest is built upon.

    Everything else we are mostly taught by learning how some old guy came up with an answer, making clever use of the tools that we also have.

    After a while it sort of clicks that there’s a method to the madness, you build up and up until you get to the moon, and you get this feeling that anything can be explained logically - we might not know how yet, but surely it will be at some point.

    Unless it’s quantum physics, fuck that.

    It feels like there’s a lot of people who skipped these building steps, maybe they were just memorizing stuff to get by the exams without exercising their brains on the methods to reach those solutions, or were simply never taught, and now they just don’t have the tools to make sense of what’s around them, and will blindly follow a monster that assures them that they’ll be ok as long as they do this or that…

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• Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  People in this thread have a hard time understanding what intelligence denotes.

  Hint: it’s not success or being smart.

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  • paraphrand@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yet again, we have difficulty having shared definitions of the most basic words.

    We really need to address this some day. So much conflict will go away once we stop arguing about the definitions of words.

    Maybe words are too imprecise, and we need something else. But on the other hand, we have precise words for lots of things. But it’s considered elitist or whatever to use them. “$10 words” are often just very precise and replace a bunch of other words in a sentence.

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    • kelpie_returns@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Without both perfect symbols and perfectly understanding wielders of those symbols, there is no such thing as perfect communication.

      To me, this unfortunately means that your dream will forever remain a dream because there is no such thing as perfection in any field. People will always make associations with words that were not initially intended to be made with those words, meaning that, even if we correctly define something and generally agree on that definition, through culture and more specific types of interaction with symbolic phenomenon, those true meanings will all always be open to alteration and redefinition. Making words more precise does not change the user-end of this phenomenon, meaning that no amount of accuracy will be enough to correct for human blunder and ignorance. I dont think there is a fix to this problem :(

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  • AwesomeLowlander@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Cambridge:

    intelligent, or able to think quickly or intelligently in difficult situations:

    Mirriam-Webster:

    1: having or showing a high degree of mental ability : intelligent, bright

    Oxford:

    intelligent

    Could you share your definition that somehow contradicts all the major dictionaries?

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    • Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Nah that’s about it, what’s your worry?

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  • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    How are being smart and being intelligent not synonyms?

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    • TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      To me, they certainly are.

      However, many people seem to think that you can get smarter. There’s even a YT channel with a name like that, so I guess smart means something different.

      Fair enough, we can split that nebulous concept into innate intelligence which refers to your mental capacity, and being booksmart, i.e. having read many books and knowing stuff. In that sense, you can get smarter by learning more information or mastering new tools.

      Getting more intelligent happens naturally as children age, but eventually it’s all downhill. You can choose to drink alcohol and and reduce your intelligence that way, but I’m not aware of any method of increasing your intelligence. Many people seem to use this term in a very different way, so I might be in the minority here.

      Either way, I would still argue that, intelligence isn’t something you can simply increase.

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    • Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      To be smart you need to be intelligent, but being intelligent doesn’t mean you’re smart.

      It has a broader definition.

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• Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Education, done correctly, doesn’t teach you what to think but how to think.

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  • Nasan@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Expanding on this, it shows you some basic options/pathways on how to think.

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    • Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      For me it was more like learning how other people think. Like, I took an accounting class as an elective and while it didn’t make me an accountant but it helped me understand accountants.

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• daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Memorization have importance. We, as a species, are as intelligent as primitive cavemen. Our brains haven’t changed that much since those times.

  What allows us to be different, to have a prosper civilization, is the information we have stored. Much of that information is stored in our brains.

  Critical thinking is of great importance. Of course. But let’s not dismiss the ability to store that critical information.

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  • Echolynx@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Memory is often used as a facade to demonstrate intelligence that lacks thinking, though.

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    • daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      If we define intelligence by the development of the brain’s abilities, memorization is one of those abilities. Then, great memorization would be, per se, a feat of intelligence.

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• NONE_dc@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  A healthy level of skepticism, both of other people’s ideas and of one’s own, is a sign of great intelligence.

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  • Reyali@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Unfortunately this also gets abused by some people who believe they have a healthy level of skepticism, but actually are way off the deep end. Like anti-vaxxers, flat-Earthers, and other anti-science people.

    So “healthy” in this context shouldn’t be defined by the individual.

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    • daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It’s good to be skeptical about vaccines or a round earth. Then you investigate and find out that vaccines work and the earth is a pseudosphere.

      Skeptical doesn’t have to mean that you straight up deny everything. It only means that you do not blindly believe it. That’s how science is actually suppose to mean. The best way to prove a scientific theory is trying to disprove it as hard as you can.

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    • calmblue75@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Skepticism doesn’t necessarily entail outright rejection of something. Like, I could be sceptical about vaccines and their side effects, but still get the vaccine because it is the best option available to me now.

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• TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  1. A peeve of mine is the ease at which they’ve correctly diagnosed the Dunning-Kuerger effect and liberally applied. Few, if any, recognize that there is controversy around the effect.
  2. I think your insight is part of a growth mindset. A concept championed by Carol Dweck, it has been embraced by educators and, unfortunately, abused by managers. Too many people think a growth mindset is better than a fixed mindset. Image
  3. Intelligence has many definitions and contexts. I agree that intellectual humility is a useful trait and makes people far more bearable to deal with, but there’s a lot of ways to examine what intelligence is and how it operates

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  • WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Growth mindset is a privilege of the few with tons of resources for whom potential seems limitless. But really, they can only learn two or tree things well.

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    • Peanutbjelly@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I could see why you’d say that. Stress creates environments of basic survival, which kills cognitive thought. More immediate survival is more salient.

      That being said, if you have access to the internet, you have access to countless free educational tools.

      Too much privilege brings sycophantic bubbles of delusion, like billionaires.

      Having all the time and money also let’s you do a whole thing tank about how to ruin a country to fit your preferences. See the heritage foundation as prime example.

      That being said, while it is less easy for the poor, it’s still essential to attempt that open mind and learn, so you don’t get trapped by a socialized category error applied as fact.

      This is where we need predictive processing and the Bayesian brain to understand how beliefs are weighted and compared, and the failure states that might being.

      Basically, poor weighting or system communication leads to an over affirmation of something that should have been high uncertainty, if measured from other directions.

      Instead of seeing high cognitive dissonance as a sign to align low probability, it gets socialized into acceptance to save the energy of trying to worry about our deal with what, to that system, appears intractable.

      DKE is at least useful in framing how each expertise eco-niche is filled with complexity that doesn’t Transfer. This is why scientists stict to their expertise, where they have high dimensions of understanding, and low dissonance to uphold.

      This can be over-prioritized until no dissonance outside of microscopic niches that act more like data collection than science.

      Experts however can work together to find truths that diffuse dissonance generally, to continue building understanding.

      If the peasants could socialize that laziness was a lack of meta awareness of the greater dissonance diffusing web of shared expert consensus, instead of laziness being the act of not feeding the socio-economic hierarchy machine, which is famous for maximizing paperclips and crushing orphans.

      Pretty sure I got beaten black and blue waiting for library access. Had to protest to keep a library open when I’m gradeschool.

      So, growth mindset isn’t a privilege, but general access to affordances, pedigree, time, tools, social connections, etc, are all extra hurdles for growth mindset in impoverished places.

      If there’s no internet access at all, then that’s just a disabled system.

      Is not static with people, and Issue with growth mindset would just be vulnerability to learning yourself into some information bubble that intentionally cuts off communication, so that you can only use that group as a resource for building your world model, bringing you to where the closed brains go just to save energy, and keeping you there forever.

      Groups that are cool with making confident choices fueled by preference in high dissonance spaces. which basically acts like fertile soil for socializing strong cult beliefs and structures.

      They also use weird unconscious tools that keep them in the bubble. Listen to almost anyone that’s escaped a cult for good elaboration there. Our brains will do a lot to keep us from becoming a social pariah in our given environment we have grown into.

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• Lushed_Lungfish@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  So here’s how I liken education. I’ve been an instructor at the Naval Engineering School so have a bit of experience in the subject.

  First thing to learn is “facts” by rote memorization and then parrot it back. If you can do that you have learned something which is not unimportant and is an important base for the next step.

  Then you learn how to apply those facts to help you in a specific set of situations. This is a very small hop above the previous step, but an important one, as now you know how to solve a narrow set of problems in a specific set of circumstances.

  Unfortunately, this is where a lot of education ends because this is the easiest level to test. To go beyond this, you as an instructor must inspire the students.

  The third level is when you take the facts you know and the situations to apply them and start modifying them to fit new novel situations. This now requires active thinking on the part of the student and will likely result in a lot of mistakes and suffering but this is where the instructor can gently guide them along and nurture their curiosity and keep their spirits up when they fail.

  Next level is an important one, when the student starts to ask, “why does this work this way in this situation and this way in this situation”? That is the start of true wisdom.

  And the final level of education is when you go back and try to teach the subject. That is when you truly open yourself up to learning.

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  • TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Depth of Knowledge levels aren’t meant to be progressed through linearly, but a way to assess tasks. One student’s mind might turn on at level three, but not at level one. Another might crumble at level 3 even if they’ve performed level 1 and 2 exceptionally.

    That first student will, having been inspired by the nature of the question, go back and learn the basics. They need to be given material that supports that activity. The second student needs to know how to chunk and connect their previous tasks to the new one.

    Great educators can personalize this work for each student and meet them where they are at. They can leverage technologies to do so and express sincere belief in students in a way no technology can.

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• TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Intelligence is such an elusive concept, but here goes anyway…

  Knowing stuff makes you knowledgeable. You’re either born intelligent, stupid or somewhere in between. No amount of studying will ever change that, unless studying also involves copious amounts of alcohol. In that case, you’ll only get dumber.

  Anyway, studying gives you information and tools, and what you’re talking about is a bit of both. If you go through a training system like that, you’ll be equipped to process and evaluate information, but none of that changes how intelligent you are. Sure, you can sound really smart to other people by using fancy terms and explaining complicated things. Those words alone don’t make you intelligent. Having the innate ability to understand that level of information does.

  I’m sure there are really smart people living in rural parts of India where they don’t learn to read or even count very far, but they can do really clever stuff when hunting birds or weaving baskets. Even though they didn’t receive much education beyond what they learned from the local villagers they can still be intelligent. If they were born in a wealthy family in UK, these people would probably go to Oxford and graduate with a PhD in no time.

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  • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I’m not saying people without formal education don’t have the capacity for intelligence, I’m saying education increases intelligence through reevaluating your own thoughts.

    From what I recall, it’s generally accepted that your potential for intelligence is based primarily on your genetic luck and environmental factors. Your genetic potential being how well your biological processes work, the hardware you’re given, and then environmental factors like injury, nutrition, and education that determine how much of your potential you reach or are hindered from. If there were 2 clones, one born to a rich family with high IQ parents that understand how to nurture intelligence and one born to 2 mentally challenged parents who not only lack the ability to take care of their kid properly but require their kid to take on a caregiver role as a child. 99% of the time, one of them would reach their full potential while the other wouldn’t.

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    • Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You’re mixing up knowledge, (or maybe “being smart”) with intelligence. You also just repeats the post ls claim you’re answering to, that an intelligent person in the UK will have better opportunities than in a poor country.

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• LodeMike@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  You’re right (but obviously not completely)

  The most important skill anyone can have is information literacy. Schools don’t reach it at all.

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  • onslaught545@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I’d say it’s critical thinking, with information literacy being part of the critical thinking process.

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• ricecake@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  There’s a lot of different things that get pumped into “intelligence”. There’s “reasoning ability”, “knowledge”, “wisdom”, and a whole host of others, some in the category of traditional intelligence, and others around things like emotional intelligence.

  Raw knowledge is something that schools can teach through memorization. You have facts. Memorization isn’t the best way to do it, since context and such can often make information stick better, but some things you’re eventually going to memorize, intentionally or not (I don’t calculate 6*6=36 every time).

  Reasoning or analytical ability is much harder to teach, since you can’t really make someone more able to have insights and such.

  Wisdom is something that can be trained I’d phrase it. I don’t think you can be taught it like you can a history lesson, but it needs to be trained like a sport. How to apply reason to a situation, how the knowledge you have relates to things and other bits of knowledge. Which things are important and which aren’t.

  It sounds like you’re mostly taking what I’ve called wisdom, with a dash if introspection tossed in, which can play very well with wisdom. “How sure am I about this?” Is a question wisdom might make you ask , and you need to know yourself to know the answer.
  Knowing how to question the right part of something, so that you’re not getting caught up in the little inconsistencies and missing the big one, or considering the wrong facts that are unimportant to a situation.
  (A pet peeve of mine) Sometimes people will bring up statistics of race in relation to crime. People with perfectly good reasoning ability and knowledge will get caught up debating the veracity of the statistics, or the minutiae of the implications of how other statistics interplay to lead to those numbers, both in an attempt to deny the conclusion of the original argument.
  The more wise thing to do is to question why this person is making the argument in the first place. Use your knowledge of society to know there are racists who want to convince others. Your reasoning to know that someone more interested in persuasion than truth can twist numbers how they want. Reject their position entirely, instead of accepting their position as valid and arguing their facts.

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• Cevilia@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I think it’s more nuanced than that, and it really depends on the level of education.

  Making kids memorise things also teaches them the process of learning a thing. Testing them on facts, dates, and formulas has value because it tests whether they’re able to learn those facts, dates, and formulas.

  In high school maths, I had to learn formulas. When I was applying to university, the admissions test came with a formula booklet. It was assumed I knew how to learn formulas, they were testing whether I’d learned how to look up the correct formula, and apply it. They weren’t just testing my mathematical ability, they were simultaneously testing my reference skills. I only really appreciated that when I was much older.

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  • MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Making kids memorise things also teaches them the process of learning a thing.

    Well, there’s different ways of learning things and i’m more the associative type, which is quite the reverse of memorizing.

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    • JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’m an associater too. Didn’t stop me from being top of every class I’ve ever been in. Take the time to study how to learn, specifically how you learn

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• ztwhixsemhwldvka@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I could be wrong though

  Lol

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• Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Is the Dunning-Krugger effect is mainly displayed by low education people?

  In my own personal experience pretty much everybody displays that in areas outside their expertise, and I definitely include myself in this.

  For example the phenomenon of people offering what basically amounts to Medical advice is incredibly common outside the Medical profession.

  It’s also my experience that highly educated people don’t have any greater introspection abilities than the rest (i.e. for self-analysis and self-criticism) or empathy (to spot when other people feel that you’re talking of your ass).

  Maybe it’s the environment I grew in, or the degrees I learned and professional occupations I had (so, Physics, Electronics Engineering, Software Engineering) that are too limited to make a judgement, maybe it’s me showing my own Dunning-Kruger effect or maybe my observations are actually representative and reasonably correct: whichever way, my 2c is that learned people are no better at the adult mature skills (such as introspection and empathy) than the rest, something which also matches with my experience that the Education System (at least were I studied, Portugal of the 80s and 90s) doesn’t at all teach those personal skills.

  So IMHO, your assumption that the majority of those people have low education is probably incorrect, unless you’re anchoring that on the statistic that most human beings on Planet Earth have low education, in which case they’re certainly the majority of the confidently incorrect even if they’re no more likely to be so than the rest simply because there’s more of them than of the rest.

  PS: Also note that amongst highly educated people there are people from different areas which emphasize different modes of thinking. My impression is that whilst STEM areas tend to emphasize analytical thinking, objectivity, assumption validation and precision, other areas actually require people to in many ways have a different relationship with objective reality (basically anything in which you’re supposed to persuade others).

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  • TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    different relationship with objective reality

    That’s a very diplomatic way to describe politicians and business professionals

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• LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  No, education gives you a good faith foundation so your neural connections are well groomed and not messy. Arguing in good faith is the basis for our sciences and legal systems. It’s the basis of progress.

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• Baggie@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I think that’s a good part of it, learning fundamentals of things you’ll need is also vital. I’ve grown to mostly appreciate learning how to learn. It’s a skill that’s implicit, but putting the building blocks in at an early stage regarding how to seek and learn knowledge sets you up so well for the rest of your existence.

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• medem@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I’d argue that learning to socialise, and the so-called social intelligence that comes with it, is THE killer argument for schools and against homeschooling.

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  • Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Every adult I’ve known to be homeschooled is weird as hell.

    Don’t get me wrong, I personally love weird people, but I was usually their only friend, because our coworkers would just avoid anyone who didn’t fit in with the norm.

    I’m not advocating that everyone conform to the norm and change who they are, but if you don’t know how to blend in when needed, you’re going to have a rough time.

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• HugeNerd@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  There was a popular author of technical books about the Commodore 64 who thought nuclear bombs aren’t real.

  You can have a few neurons really good at one thing, they don’t map over to other things.

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• RBWells@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Memorization is such a strange thing to try to teach. I was never good at that in school but could sing any song on the radio after hearing it once. In school I was good enough at math up to a point because I was so bad at memorization got good at thinking my way through it. Was much better at word problems than equations in elementary school.

  I do agree with the premise of the shower thought - part of being educated is learning through mistakes. Making mistakes is one of the fastest ways to learn something, and is the main reason I’m good at my job. I am happy to work in accounting where mistakes don’t kill anyone.

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• dohpaz42@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Another way to think about it is to say that education is the memorization of knowledge, while intelligence is the application of said knowledge. i.e. book smarts vs. street smarts. They aren’t the same things, but are two building blocks that work together.

  At least that’s how I look at it.

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  • PoopingCough@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I disagree about education being about memorization. Education is about knowledge being imparted. Testing is often about memorization, although I’d argue that’s usually only with poorly designed tests. To me, a good education is also a lot about teaching critical thinking skills.

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• Simulation6@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Many times when I post on Lemmy I am then educated. I do appreciate it a lot, thanks everyone.

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• vane@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Education pack you with group of people so your instinct wants you to live in community and puts a boss ( teacher ) above you so you can become a factory worker in capitalistic world.

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  • Soggy@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Education existed before capitalism. Or are you going to tell me that Socrates was an industrial shill?

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    • vane@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I am sorry I didn’t know that Socrates invented packing couple hundred of people in the same building to teach them something.

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• WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Education improves intelligence marginally by forcing people to use parts of their brains more, which then remodel to be more efficient.

  Most of your intelligence is set.

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• chuckleslord@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Dunning-kruger is probably not an actual thing. It just conforms to our biases.

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