I’ll still be using it regardless…its not like its going to dissappear
Duckstation(one of the most popular PS1 Emulators) dev plans on eventually dropping Linux support due to Linux users, especially Arch Linux users.
Submitted 8 months ago by Pro@reddthat.com to technology@lemmy.world
https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/59bec70c-af56-4c66-9cef-28d42bc864de.png
Comments
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
jerakor@startrek.website 8 months ago
Year of the Linux desktop pushed out a year due to Linux infighting and intolerable advocates for the 33rd year. Clearly the fault of the other distros as I use Arch.
Integrate777@discuss.online 8 months ago
Arch linux. Hmm. Could it be because of the users? Lately arch linux has become the most popular distro for people trying linux for the first time. Are they all congregating on duckstation’s github to cry about it?
Nico_198X@europe.pub 8 months ago
What a whiny baby XD
tantamoq@feddit.nl 8 months ago
As a Linux user, I disagree. It’s his time and investment. Sometimes you gotta make difficult choices and when users complain about stuff that’s unrelated, it’s a mess for a dev to deal with. And Linux users are loud
Nico_198X@europe.pub 8 months ago
He’s a total baby. He gives off big 2000s Windows only user energy
Zozano@aussie.zone 8 months ago
Its moments like this I’m glad to be a nixos user lol.
Slap that shit in a flake and forget about it. No matter what updates the dev has, or what system the user has, its always gonna compile.
Fuck I love nix.
If it had genitals I’d fucking date it.
mutter9355@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
Least obsessed nixos user
Nico_198X@europe.pub 8 months ago
Slap those genitals in a flake and get those dinner reservations ready!
Nixos can be whatever your imagination wants it to be!
Zozano@aussie.zone 8 months ago
Not far off base lol. As long as it compiles on whoever’s machine decides to repackage the application, it’ll run on everyone’s.
Most updates its usually just a matter of updating a key.
Its not that hard to make a wrapper for a program designed for hard-linked paths.
yarr@feddit.nl 8 months ago
This is sad. Various programs have gone through the same type of situation with Debian stable. Debian is very conservative and doesn’t ship upgrades quickly on their stable branch. Various authors have complained because they frequently get emails / bug reports from Debian users, who happen to be using a few-years-old version of their software.
I do understand the frustration, but it does feel a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It’s possible there are other solutions, like detecting whatever random issue is frustrating people and pop up a dialog.
For example, if he’s upset with it being broken on Wayland, why not detect Wayland and start off with a dialog: “Wayland is beta and is not officially supported. See FAQ here: […]”
Just blocking people feels over the top. But hey, it’s his project, if he wants to go this way, it’s his choice and right. Depending on the license he might get forked, but that’s just how it goes.
magic_smoke@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
As someone who used to use arch for years, I can’t stand its users who go around acting like running it is some herculean task that takes serious knowledge.
In reality its not much more than a misbehaved pet that requires constant attention and a blog post to be read every month or so. Not because its hard, but because its updates are just kinda slapped together and tossed out in the name of speed.
One of the biggest indicators of this is the AUR. For what it was worth, the Gentoo crowd it replaced at least knew how to compile a program.
Maybe learn to use git, tar, and make like literally anyone else on any other fucking distro.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 8 months ago
I feel like I’d need to check the wiki less if pacman had flags that made more sense lol. Plus so many variations of commands the wiki warns “this will break your shit”.
I really like Arch, I’m using CachyOS, it’s been great. But I do miss apt lol. Maybe that’s just because I was used to it though. Update and upgrade being two totally different things is also extremely counterintuitive.
AeroGlen@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I don’t use Arch but I have noticed a growing number of forums where people seem to talk about a lot of problems. I have used Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu etc. But Arch stands out as the distro that seems to have the most helpless users. Or is it the most broken distro?
andkit@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
I use arch on a couple of machines and for a rolling release I find it surprisingly hassle free. So with a scientifically relevant sample size of one ;) - I declare that it’s the people that are the problem.
That is with regular updates though.
I also have a gentoo box that is fine if you let it update every week or two, but tends to need more love and attention if you turn it on again after half a year. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the same for arch. Users who only update twice a year aren’t really the target audience for rolling release.
It probably also depends on your hardware and what your usecases are; as always using the right tool for the job helps
MITM0@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Let me add to context:
This developer hates the FOSS spirit & tells users to fuck off when they complain. There, done.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 7 months ago
But are FOSS spirit and asshole users the same thing? On that, I disagree.
daggermoon@lemmy.world 8 months ago
He took an open source project and made it source available. I don’t blame people for being upset.
Ferroto@lemmy.world 8 months ago
As a linux user myself (arch) I wish the community would just pick a package manager and stick with it.
docktordreh@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
Sounds idealistic and raises some questions.
Why? Who decides? Who stops someone from introducing a new package manager? Why should a person developing a package manager be “stopped”?
I don’t agree.
Devs could just provide a Dockerfile containing the build environment and a script. That would pair nicely with CI and automated builds. No need to restrict package managers. Also, flatpak exists.
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Seems contrary to the nature of the Linux scene tbh
aquovie@lemmy.cafe 8 months ago
They’re not all identical in features and function though. Nix is different from Gentoo which is different from RPM. And they’re all going to have drawbacks and in some cases, have complete showstoppers.
- Portage/Aur: Not everyone is gonna compile things and if you say use the pre-built options, then this isn’t the right choice.
- Debian/RPM: You’ll never get distro’s to agree to release names or contents, like glibc and ssl versions
- Nix: Learning curve is murder. Not every app is made to be reproducible.
- FlatPak/Snap/AppImage: Loses almost all the advantages of a distro that we take for granted: CVE patching, tested updates, etc.
This is a brief, maybe even unfair overview but it’s not as easy as “just pick one”.
And this ignores the huge pantheon of “language package managers” like pip, gem, npm, cargo, cpan, maven, etc^infinity. Ideally these would just be build dep managers but you get a lot of apps packaged and distributed this way too. Some distro’s/package systems bravely try to keep up but it’s a losing battle.
atticus88th@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Microsoft waiting in the wings to buy that package manager as soon as the community decides.
arc99@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The answer for this guy and other people stretched by supporting Linux is to say it’s flatpak or nothing. Stop trying to build for each dist because it’s not sustainable. If someone on a dist wants to maintain a package then let them take the heat if it is broken.
SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 8 months ago
Why should he get a say on how someone else installs the software on their own systems?
If I want to build an arch package instead, what business is that of his?
BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 8 months ago
It’s open source, the package the developer chooses to distribute doesn’t affect your ability to create whatever kind of package for your own system you want.
daggermoon@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I use the Duckstation flatpak funny enough
daggermoon@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Flatpak is dead, moving to appimage. Finally, an appimage that isn’t broken.
dustyData@lemmy.world 8 months ago
No, you are harassing and bullying poor Stenzek.
Typical Linux user, using Linux and stuff.
/s
kadup@lemmy.world 8 months ago
If someone on a dist wants to maintain a package then let them take the heat if it is broken.
That’s quite literally what happened and why this guy is moaning though. Nobody asked him for an Arch build, people distribute it themselves on the AUR and he’s annoyed anyway.
nyan@lemmy.cafe 8 months ago
I don’t think you quite understand how this works. No distro ever asks third party programmers to create packages for them—that’s the job of the distro’s own team, or of enthusiasts using the distro. All the distro packagers want or need from the original programmer is the source code and enough documentation to get it to compile. They take it from there.
The problem here appears to be that some people with disagreeable personalities chose to complain to upstream instead of (or in addition) to their distro or whoever provided the package. There’s nothing the distro can do to prevent that. And if you’ve been in the game for a bit, you know that, if your software gains any traction, you’re going to run into obnoxious users with entitlement issues and you need to have some way of dealing with that (mentally and procedurally). The programmer here apparently didn’t have the mental stamina to deal with obnoxious users, and threw a fit.
arc99@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Did you read the text? This guy was providing a package because the default one was broken and he’s fed up of dealing with complaints. And the solution to that is just flatpak the thing and tell users to use that regardless of dist.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
I’m immediately skeptical of developers who use Windows. At best, it makes me question their judgement.
rickrolled767@ttrpg.network 8 months ago
Windows isn’t exactly my cup of tea either, but at the end of the day an operating system is just a tool to do what you need to do on a computer.
Linux is my choice, but everyone’s got their preference.
jellygoose@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
They might be on OSX…
Wispy2891@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Refuse to build in Arch package environments. My license does not allow for packages
but it’s not a package. On arch it downloads the source from his own git and it compiles it on the end user machine. He is a dev and doesn’t know that? Or just pretending?
hamsterkill@lemmy.sdf.org 8 months ago
They know. The PKGBUILD they provided is exactly the kind of thing that’s in the AUR. The dev’s PKGBUILD wasn’t in the AUR because they didn’t want it to be — instead hoping arch users would go to the repository and use their maintained one. Arch users continued to try to use AUR instead, leading to the dev’s frustration.
I don’t expect this will help anything. If the AUR maintainer is active, they will probably just patch that restriction out.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
He is a dev and doesn’t know that?
I think it’s reasonable that he doesn’t. He doesn’t use Arch (or any Linux flavor), so isn’t aware of how packaging for Arch works. I’m guessing someone submitted the PKGBUILD and he just accepted it, and now people come to him for support instead of the person who submitted it.
I 100% agree w/ removing the PKGBUILD, but he doesn’t need to go out of his way to remove Linux support. Just state that the project doesn’t officially support Linux, but is open to Linux-specific bug fixes. Then if anyone complains about a distro-specific issue, close the issue and move on. If someone opens what seems to be a legitimate bug w/ Linux, leave it open and move on.
That’s really all the community should expect here.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Their right to do so, but the comment sounds like a whiny bitch.
patatahooligan@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I see a few top level comments agreeing with the sentiment that users are being entitled or abusive, but what are they actually referring to? The linked image certainly has no evidence of such behavior. Someone who claims to be the developer filed a deletion request for the duckstation-git AUR package on the AUR and they say:
Every time, it turns into abuse towards me, as you can also see in the comments for the package.
I read through a few pages of the comments here and they’re mostly people talking about fixing issues with the package, and what to do about the dev purposely breaking the build… I only found a single message that could be called abuse:
@eugene, not really but i suspect it’s an uphill battle, check the commit message: github.com/…/30df16cc767297c544e1311a3de4d10da30f…
FWIW, I’m moving to pcsx-redux, I rather run a little bit less advanced PSX emulator than software by this upstream asshat. Regardless, much thanks for maintaining the AUR package so far.
And even this is not a good example of what stenzek is describing. For one, it’s obviously a reaction to stenzek’s hostile changes and not the sort of user coming for support and being abusive that stenzek is talking about. The user is also explicitly moving to a different emulator and not expecting any change from duckstation.
Matriks404@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Since it’s an open source project, it’s pretty easy to make a fork and readd Linux support.
Auli@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Nope not according to the license. Now is the license change legit and allowed? I don’t know
Matriks404@lemmy.world 8 months ago
It doesn’t matter what the license say, because GitHub TOS (that everybody agree on when registering their account) explicitly allows forking any project hosted on GitHub, regardless of the project’s license.
iglou@programming.dev 8 months ago
I’m far from an expert on licenses, but logic tells me that any version that was released with the previous license is still under that previous license. So it’s probably onay to fork from a previous version to maintain linux support?
mycodesucks@lemmy.world 8 months ago
MITM0@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Oh have some patience my friend
AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The licence doesn’t permit derivative works, so no forks and no downstream packages.
woelkchen@lemmy.world 8 months ago
True but there is a workaround: a patchset to a specific upstream git commit and local compilation. Pretty much what PKGBUILD already does. LAME was developed this way for years. It was a patchset to reference source code under a nonfree license.
hamsterkill@lemmy.sdf.org 8 months ago
It’s easy enough to fork the code as it existed under GPL3.
RedPandaRaider@feddit.org 8 months ago
It’s crazy that this is legal.
Wispy2891@lemmy.world 8 months ago
the license change is invalid as it’s based from GPL3 code and previous contributors did not allow the change
yetAnotherUser@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
You’re right, the license is Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 (weird choice for a code license, but OK)
PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@feddit.uk 8 months ago
🏴☠️ 🦜
ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Linux pros: FOSS, free, private, secure, etc.
Linux cons: Linux users
seralth@lemmy.world 8 months ago
[deleted]jj4211@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Sometimes devs are the most difficult users.
“Why is this not working the way it should? Ok, yes I did rewrite how the code manages save data in the filesystem, but that shouldn’t have any impact, I just thought it should make sure it only writes in 8k chunks because I read a comment somewhere that says it would increase ssd life by 3%, but I promise you it’s exactly equivalent to the original code and the problem most be elsewhere, not my patch. I patched dozens of other packages without issue with my 8k barrier start without any problems”
Devs come up with wild ideas, rewrite stuff, fail to mention it until you run into it, then explain why it doesn’t matter and stubbornly refuse to at least try without their weird change.
iglou@programming.dev 8 months ago
Users are the cons of everything, including Windows and OSX
ICastFist@programming.dev 8 months ago
I’d argue that Microsoft is worse than its users
ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 8 months ago
Users are, in general, the worst part of making any user focused product.
higgsboson@piefed.social 8 months ago
This job would be great if it wasnt for the fucking customers.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Dev here who also happens to support Linux, and while Linux has its own challenges (whoever came up with the libevdev API, should not allowed to come up with any other API’s), I think it’s good to support Linux natively regardless. GNOME devs however should stop forcing their UX ideas onto others sometimes even outside of Linux. One of them when I was asking about how to I make the Alt key on Windows to stop it trying to open the nonexistent menu bar, then they told me to “just add one”. I’m developing games, not just desktop apps, where the alt key isn’t expected to open a menu bar. I then got told that it’s “expected behavior” (Hungarian here, I’d like to expect that both alt keys are for accessing a second set of gliphs, and one of them isn’t a dedicated “menu key”), and that games like Unreal Tournament “did it already” (that one used the escape key for menus).
xan1242@lemmy.world 8 months ago
One of them when I was asking about how to I make the Alt key on Windows to stop it trying to open the nonexistent menu bar, then they told me to “just add one”.
FYI - if you haven’t figured this out already (and for useful info for other Win32 devs), simply block WM_SYSCOMMAND in your WndProc of your app if the pressed key is SC_KEYMENU.
I’ve done this for a game mod I’m developing (it didn’t have windowed mode originally) and I specifically blocked it only during active gameplay. Otherwise (e.g. during menus) it can be pretty useful to keep active.
seralth@lemmy.world 8 months ago
[deleted]aquovie@lemmy.cafe 8 months ago
I used to have this view but I’ve come around: change can be painful but it’s also necessary. It’s like a wildfire: it’s destructive but it allows for new growth and it’s a sign of a healthy, sustainable ecosystem. Suppressing change isn’t healthy.
Do I think that every change from Gnome is a winner? Nope but I do think they’re doing their best to move in the right direction, as they see it. And for that, I’ll keep using Gnome and I wish them good luck.
dynamoMaus@feddit.org 8 months ago
Interesting. The only thing i knew is: the escape key is really important for Unreal Tournament.
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The original Unreal Tournament (or UT’99, or whatever) is also one of the very few modern-ish full screen games that had a drop down menu bar like you’d expect on a typical Windows application. The other one I can think of off the top of my head is ZSNES, although in that case they rolled their own solution. Not least of which because the original ZSNES was a DOS program (with huge chunks of it written in x86 assembly!) so they kind of didn’t have a choice.
If I remember right UT’99 actually did use Windows style accelerator keys in its menus, i.e. hold down Alt and press a letter to perform an action, which might just make all this malarkey peripherally relevant.
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 8 months ago
GNOME devs however should stop forcing their UX ideas onto others
And then break them with every major release
Lauchmelder@feddit.org 8 months ago
Seems like a skill issue on the part of the dev. GitHub lets you create issue templates and even forms. He could have made it so that every issue creator is warned that packaging issues will be ignored and closed without comment.
febra@lemmy.world 8 months ago
People still don’t care. They’ll still open packaging related issues. And someone will still have to sift through those and close them individually.
Lauchmelder@feddit.org 8 months ago
Then explain to me how the bazillion other open source cross-platform Windows-first projects do it. Dropping support for Linux moving forward is fine, but actively going out of your way to remove the existing support is petty and just an asshole move. Especially when paired with a license that restricts 3rdparty packaging.
danhab99@programming.dev 8 months ago
This is so lame for the arch community, like
I use arch btws are supposed to be the most hardcore power users and they bugged a dev that badly! I don’t know how many tutorial I saw about compiling arch and building everything yourself into a minimal setup.You can’t give me shit for using Manjaro for as long as I did, GLAD I LEFT.
can I say something a little stupid
Thx! So I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with ignoring emails. Emails are a kinda public way for anyone to start a conversation with you. As developers, we include our emails in commits — but we don’t have to. I don’t think GitHub even checks whether the email addresses in commits are valid. So yeah, if you have a valid reason to reach out to a developer, go ahead. But if that developer disagrees or doesn’t want to respond, that’s just how it is — you can’t make someone email you back. I’m just being consistent with myself. I always tell my friends and family about the importance of the block button, and I’ll say the same thing here: just ignore it. And in this case someone would have eventually fixed the problem and submitted a PR. ~sry if I was condescending~
JackbyDev@programming.dev 8 months ago
I submitted a PR and bug report for something I was using recently to better help arch users install it in the future. I encourage other folks to do that. If you ever have trouble installing something, just submit a little PR with tweaks to the README that would’ve helped you. Oftentimes they’ll accept them. It benefits everyone.
kieron115@startrek.website 8 months ago
Manjaro was my first Arch distro and I enjoyed it until I found out about the issues with packages always being out of date. Switched over to EndeavourOS and have been loving it so far. It’s been “just working” for like two years now and even my 70 year old parents don’t notice a difference from Windoze when they borrow my laptop. In fact my dad is using it to do some Quicken work today (which was an adventure to get working. WineHQ community was super helpful though)
drmoose@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Valid points but the maintainer comes off as deranged.
SereneSadie@lemmy.myserv.one 8 months ago
A dev with some sense.
FunnyUsername@lemmy.world 8 months ago
this developer is a big prick. i had an issue (that turned out to be user error after getting help from another source) with the android version of duckstation so went to their discord for support. instead of offering any aid or insight, i was immediately stereotyped as “an android user” and told “we don’t offer tech support for android” basically for no other reason than “because android users bitch too much and then give you a bad review,” which is just kind of insane imo? there’s no downside to bad reviews like you’re not going to get delisted? anyways, completely not surprised to hear this from that ass.
IzzyJ@lemmy.world 8 months ago
So what other ps1/2 emulators are on Linux yall would recommend. I don’t wanna support this dev
JakoJakoJako13@piefed.social 8 months ago
peoplebeproblems@midwest.social 8 months ago
But then someone else would have to maintain it for Linux, and Arch Linux specifically. That’s a lot of work, especially as things diverge.
mvirts@lemmy.world 8 months ago
It sure would be a shame if his software was covered by the gpl because it’s statically linked against Qt or FFMpeg or any other library… 👀
samus12345@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
I really liked the widescreen option. Do any other PSX emulators have it integrated like Duckstation does?
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 8 months ago
itt: a bunch of entitled Linux youths that don’t understand burnout or QOL.
dude has set a limit to what he wants or is willing to do. still gets called a bitch for defining the line and is still called an asshole.
some of y’all even bring up multiple cases of other foss devs doing/saying the same thing, continue to call them assholes.
🤔 There’s a pattern here…but I’m just too blinded by the brilliancy of my distro to see it…
paraphrand@lemmy.world 8 months ago
After being on Lemmy, I have some kneejerk sympathy.
Seems harsh though.
mavu@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
I think he should just drop linux support.
no need to whine or complain.
“not doing linux builds anymore, here is the source, build it yourself if you want”, done.