Submitted 3 weeks ago by Pro@reddthat.com to technology@lemmy.world
https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/59bec70c-af56-4c66-9cef-28d42bc864de.png
itt: a bunch of entitled Linux youths that don’t understand burnout or QOL.
dude has set a limit to what he wants or is willing to do. still gets called a bitch for defining the line and is still called an asshole.
some of y’all even bring up multiple cases of other foss devs doing/saying the same thing, continue to call them assholes.
🤔 There’s a pattern here…but I’m just too blinded by the brilliancy of my distro to see it…
Notice how the developer argues he forbids packages and how the AIR is in violation of this? But an AUR PKGBUILD is not a package - it’s build instructions. It doesn’t distribute or package anything, you can check it yourself. It’s not called “PKG” for a reason. He misunderstands his own license and believes the allegedly broken PKGBUILD violates it.
He may be right about some users annoying him with bug reports though I’d be surprised if it was that common. It seems like he got a couple of reports, noticed the “forbidden” PKGBUILD and then reacted like this. Just like when changing the license from GPL to CC-BY-NC-ND in order to combat… GPL violations and trademark infringements?
Frankly, the project has not had parricularly stable leadership in a while. Though a bit unfair of a comparison, compare it to Dolphin and you can see a night and day difference in project management.
Ironic that a guy who facilitates large amounts of piracy is complaining about violating license agreements.
TIL dolphin can emulate psx.
If someone wanted to maintain the PKGBUILD for this project, it’d be trivial to include a patch that removes the code he added trying to make it not build.
Or, to make sure to not be in breach of the no-derivatives part of his lisence, just reimplement it and ship with a patch that fixes his “blocker”.
Seriously, this thread is honestly vile and these people are a perfect example as to why this is happening.
How they are this blind to their own toxicity is beyond me
I haven’t read anything VILE here. It’s happening because he’s both controlling and implicitly bad at maintaining said control. Had he not insisted on trying to control packages he would have had a working package like every other software project in the ecosystem that is properly maintained for free by other people’s labor.
it’s honestly why I don’t open source any of my projects.
like, I want to make the world a better place but at the same time it cannot cost me my QOL because some entitled punk thinks they can demand shit from me.
The problem has originated because he changed the lisence resulting in older versions being the only way to ship duckstation.
I wonder if he received permission from all the other contributors to change the license of their contributions.
I just cannot wrap my head around an emulator dev who isn't daily driving Linux...
I’m all for jerking around on Windows folks to use Linux in jest and fun, but to purposely shit on a major contributor of any foss for not using Linux makes my blood boil.
honestly, I hope the dev reads this and takes my advice.
as a Linux guy, run dude. fuck these assholes. they don’t deserve you time, your talent, or your efforts. gank your shit, rewrite the license, and block any Linux use. and make sure you call out the distro(s) responsible. sometimes assholes have to be put in their place to learn anything. even then, if history tells us anything they’re just going to go poison some other poor dev and forget about you.
I’m passing judgement. He’s a weirdo
People just expect open source devs that do this shit in their free time with absolutely no compensation to bend over for them and do everything they please. The good thing about open source development is that you can just help with the development yourself.
Yes, but no one can help this one developer because they changed the license. So now the project is just source available, not open source. They chose to be alone.
I’d go further, you should help with the development. Seems like some people would rather spend hours hounding a developer to implement their thing, rather than figuring out how to do it themselves…
youths
y’all
Defending a dick head dev they know nothing about or their history and insulting end users under false assumption. Overly self righteous.
Yep, reddit as fuck.
You might want to look up the meaning of the word “entitled”.
G*mers are entitled pieces of shit.
Linux users are arrogant hipster assholes.
It’s a perfect storm for creating just the worst people ever. And that’s before we add the weird belittlement open source devs get.
While users can be demanding, this reads like a very immature response. Going out of your way to block support and prohibit packaging, which you can let others do with 0 seconds of your time, is kinda rude.
Author may have been harassed for all I know, but this is still an emotional response. They could have just said “yeah I’m not supporting this at all, figure it out yourselves if you want to” rather than actively blocking Linux functionality/packaging, which is what this sounds like.
Just because it’s open source
It’s not open source. The maintainer relicensed the project from GPL to the current source-available license last year.
So this is more like source available rather than open source…
Just because it’s open source doesn’t mean it’s necessarily open for all uses. His license explicitly denied using his code in packages. People did it anyway.
There exists pkgbuilds for arch and previously packages of the older GPL builds.
A pkgbuild is just a recipe for each users computer do do the stuff needed to fetch and or build publicly available software. It is copyright the writer of the recipe not the owner of the software thus fetched. That is to say the owner of foobar can’t copyright the functional equivalent of a bash script which does git clone and make install foobar.
The older versions thereof are still available under the GPL and aren’t subject to being removed.
Neither of these are actually subject to the authors whims. He doesn’t own the pkgbuild and if he chooses to offer the file to users they can download it either by manually git cloning it or having a script do it.
So no they didn’t “do it anyway”
He explicitly states that it is not 0% of his time due to being bombarded with support requests.
Read the post.
What I’m saying is that a more reasonable stance is to say “package as-is or fork it if you want I will put 0 effort to accomodate”.
Others have clarified that they are not as extreme as I thought though so maybe that’s fine.
I just think that from a perspective this seems like a “people in X country keep writing gay fanfic about my book and asking if A and B characters are gay. so I’m gonna stop selling there and also destroy All copies left in their language. Because I’m a petty man-child”.
But, once again, I hope this is not what’s actually happening here and my reading was off.
As an open source developer, I’d love to have had contributors to help package my apps. It was killing me maintaining everything by myself. It sounds like the control issues I had when I first had contributors, where I didn’t want others to touch my babies too much when people actually started writing code.
Honestly as a dev, I just don't give a fuck. Is that a licence? MIT is close enough.
I let people pr and if it breaks something, oh well. It's not attached to my real name anyway. A good ci/cd saves time and mental energy so I don't have to publish and test. If I bother.
There's some things like onionos that I've helped out with thst I actually take pride in. But it's all for fun. Why not, it's my time. Code will come and go, but I left things a tiny bit better for all y'all.
Sometimes external packaging is a huge issue for certain projects, where their support gets flooded with stuff that isn’t in their control and their reputation gets tanked.
…That being said, a PS1 emulator doesn’t seem so extreme to warrant that?
this developer is a big prick. i had an issue (that turned out to be user error after getting help from another source) with the android version of duckstation so went to their discord for support. instead of offering any aid or insight, i was immediately stereotyped as “an android user” and told “we don’t offer tech support for android” basically for no other reason than “because android users bitch too much and then give you a bad review,” which is just kind of insane imo? there’s no downside to bad reviews like you’re not going to get delisted? anyways, completely not surprised to hear this from that ass.
“I don’t want to get bad reviews so I’m going to be a massive dick to my users”
Can you help me underatand where you proved him wrong?
Who said he was wrong? He basically guaranteed that android users will respond that way by refusing to support them, thus ensuring he will always be right about them
instead of offering any aid or insight, i was immediately stereotyped as “an android user” and told “we don’t offer tech support for android” basically for no other reason than “because android users bitch too much and then give you a bad review,”
This sounds like there were several users berating you, not (just) the developer?
It’s a tricky one. You can’t ban every user from your Discord just for being condescending.
The developer also had a massive drama with RetroArch because, wait for it… “RetroArch users complain too much!” so that’s actually a common sentiment coming from them and it’s absolutely not restricted to Linux. He hates Linux users, Android users, RetroArch users… at this point I wonder why even publish this as a public user facing project at all, he clearly hates users.
I’ve seen this, some server Admins and mods actually encourage the behavior via modeling. They do it once and that gives permission to the other users to act similarly. Becoming a cultural problem with the whole server. Then they don’t ever correct or moderate the behavior, further encouraging it.
Sounds like someone who uses Windows and is annoyed that anyone else uses anything other than Windows.
I dunno about anyone else, but that’s a giant red flag for me when it comes to software devs
Eh, I use Linux and am annoyed at issues from users on other systems. I don’t know Windows dev very well, so fixing issues on Windows is a pain for me. Likewise for macOS.
So I get it.
That said, the proper way to handle this is to make it explicit what platforms are supported and which are not, accept fixes for unsupported platforms that don’t break supported platforms, close issues related to packaging and whatnot on other platforms, and leave open and ignore issues for unsupported platforms. Let the community support what they want, and focus on what you want.
it genuinely seems like this guy hates developing duckstation at all.
I don’t think you get it. He probably enjoys creating, and achieving something awesome. He has no obligation to deal with entitled users of what he gives away
Then he really shouldn’t have a discord server where he offers tech support.
It’s one thing to not give anyone lemonade, you’re never obligated to do that for no reason, however it’s another thing to set up a free lemonade stand and tell whoever tries to get lemonade that they’re annoying and to go away.
If he just wants to create something and not deal with any user issues, he could just do that. Going out of his way to tell users to fuck off is extra work he could just not do and everyone would be happier
You mean “self-entitled”. “Entitled” means that you actually are owed something. It’s like the difference between righteous and self-righteous.
Sounds like hes just tired of dealing with idiots.
Which I can sympathise with.
Who forces him to respond to such messages on Discord? He can just not engage with people of whom he thinks are idiots.
If he doesn’t want to engage with users at all, maybe not set up a Discord in the first place.
I mean, he’s not wrong, plenty of pre-release games allow you to download before it’s out, then android users go and give it 1 star because the servers aren’t open yet.
I see a few top level comments agreeing with the sentiment that users are being entitled or abusive, but what are they actually referring to? The linked image certainly has no evidence of such behavior. Someone who claims to be the developer filed a deletion request for the duckstation-git AUR package on the AUR and they say:
Every time, it turns into abuse towards me, as you can also see in the comments for the package.
I read through a few pages of the comments here and they’re mostly people talking about fixing issues with the package, and what to do about the dev purposely breaking the build… I only found a single message that could be called abuse:
@eugene, not really but i suspect it’s an uphill battle, check the commit message: github.com/…/30df16cc767297c544e1311a3de4d10da30f…
FWIW, I’m moving to pcsx-redux, I rather run a little bit less advanced PSX emulator than software by this upstream asshat. Regardless, much thanks for maintaining the AUR package so far.
And even this is not a good example of what stenzek is describing. For one, it’s obviously a reaction to stenzek’s hostile changes and not the sort of user coming for support and being abusive that stenzek is talking about. The user is also explicitly moving to a different emulator and not expecting any change from duckstation.
The answer for this guy and other people stretched by supporting Linux is to say it’s flatpak or nothing. Stop trying to build for each dist because it’s not sustainable. If someone on a dist wants to maintain a package then let them take the heat if it is broken.
I don’t think you quite understand how this works. No distro ever asks third party programmers to create packages for them—that’s the job of the distro’s own team, or of enthusiasts using the distro. All the distro packagers want or need from the original programmer is the source code and enough documentation to get it to compile. They take it from there.
The problem here appears to be that some people with disagreeable personalities chose to complain to upstream instead of (or in addition) to their distro or whoever provided the package. There’s nothing the distro can do to prevent that. And if you’ve been in the game for a bit, you know that, if your software gains any traction, you’re going to run into obnoxious users with entitlement issues and you need to have some way of dealing with that (mentally and procedurally). The programmer here apparently didn’t have the mental stamina to deal with obnoxious users, and threw a fit.
Did you read the text? This guy was providing a package because the default one was broken and he’s fed up of dealing with complaints. And the solution to that is just flatpak the thing and tell users to use that regardless of dist.
If someone on a dist wants to maintain a package then let them take the heat if it is broken.
That’s quite literally what happened and why this guy is moaning though. Nobody asked him for an Arch build, people distribute it themselves on the AUR and he’s annoyed anyway.
Why should he get a say on how someone else installs the software on their own systems?
If I want to build an arch package instead, what business is that of his?
It’s open source, the package the developer chooses to distribute doesn’t affect your ability to create whatever kind of package for your own system you want.
I use the Duckstation flatpak funny enough
No, you are harassing and bullying poor Stenzek.
Typical Linux user, using Linux and stuff.
/s
Linux pros: FOSS, free, private, secure, etc.
Linux cons: Linux users
Users are, in general, the worst part of making any user focused product.
Dev here who also happens to support Linux, and while Linux has its own challenges (whoever came up with the libevdev API, should not allowed to come up with any other API’s), I think it’s good to support Linux natively regardless. GNOME devs however should stop forcing their UX ideas onto others sometimes even outside of Linux. One of them when I was asking about how to I make the Alt key on Windows to stop it trying to open the nonexistent menu bar, then they told me to “just add one”. I’m developing games, not just desktop apps, where the alt key isn’t expected to open a menu bar. I then got told that it’s “expected behavior” (Hungarian here, I’d like to expect that both alt keys are for accessing a second set of gliphs, and one of them isn’t a dedicated “menu key”), and that games like Unreal Tournament “did it already” (that one used the escape key for menus).
I think this should have been anticipated after the license change.
Just fork it lol
Valid points but the maintainer comes off as deranged.
Refuse to build in Arch package environments. My license does not allow for packages
but it’s not a package. On arch it downloads the source from his own git and it compiles it on the end user machine. He is a dev and doesn’t know that? Or just pretending?
Their right to do so, but the comment sounds like a whiny bitch.
Imagine if Linux developers building the libraries this was built on where as petty.
Just grep the source for “wayland” and you’ll see what I mean.
and
# Refuse to build in Arch package environments
MATCHES “.*archlinux.*”)
Not sure if there is more to this, but it seems like it screws over X11 users for no reason (I’m still using a 1050Ti).
As someone who used to use arch for years, I can’t stand its users who go around acting like running it is some herculean task that takes serious knowledge.
In reality its not much more than a misbehaved pet that requires constant attention and a blog post to be read every month or so. Not because its hard, but because its updates are just kinda slapped together and tossed out in the name of speed.
One of the biggest indicators of this is the AUR. For what it was worth, the Gentoo crowd it replaced at least knew how to compile a program.
Maybe learn to use git, tar, and make like literally anyone else on any other fucking distro.
Dude has a history of acting bipolar.
This is so lame for the arch community, like I use arch btws are supposed to be the most hardcore power users and they bugged a dev that badly! I don’t know how many tutorial I saw about compiling arch and building everything yourself into a minimal setup.
You can’t give me shit for using Manjaro for as long as I did, GLAD I LEFT.
Thx! So I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with ignoring emails. Emails are a kinda public way for anyone to start a conversation with you. As developers, we include our emails in commits — but we don’t have to. I don’t think GitHub even checks whether the email addresses in commits are valid. So yeah, if you have a valid reason to reach out to a developer, go ahead. But if that developer disagrees or doesn’t want to respond, that’s just how it is — you can’t make someone email you back. I’m just being consistent with myself. I always tell my friends and family about the importance of the block button, and I’ll say the same thing here: just ignore it. And in this case someone would have eventually fixed the problem and submitted a PR. ~sry if I was condescending~
Sounds a lot like I would like Debian to stop shipping Xscreensaver.
This is sad. Various programs have gone through the same type of situation with Debian stable. Debian is very conservative and doesn’t ship upgrades quickly on their stable branch. Various authors have complained because they frequently get emails / bug reports from Debian users, who happen to be using a few-years-old version of their software.
I do understand the frustration, but it does feel a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It’s possible there are other solutions, like detecting whatever random issue is frustrating people and pop up a dialog.
For example, if he’s upset with it being broken on Wayland, why not detect Wayland and start off with a dialog: “Wayland is beta and is not officially supported. See FAQ here: […]”
Just blocking people feels over the top. But hey, it’s his project, if he wants to go this way, it’s his choice and right. Depending on the license he might get forked, but that’s just how it goes.
Since it’s an open source project, it’s pretty easy to make a fork and readd Linux support.
So what other ps1/2 emulators are on Linux yall would recommend. I don’t wanna support this dev
I don’t know who the bad guy is here because closing the source a while back makes me distrust this dev yet also I 100% believe Linux users (or at least the power users) are almost certainly insufferable in ways that would drive a reasonable dev out of development for Linux.
I’m immediately skeptical of developers who use Windows. At best, it makes me question their judgement.
Lmao welcome to the world of open source
Project doesn’t have an issue tracker, wonder why
Linux users are entitled children? Perish the thought.
Imagine if Linux developers building the libraries this was built on where as petty.
Seems like a skill issue on the part of the dev. GitHub lets you create issue templates and even forms. He could have made it so that every issue creator is warned that packaging issues will be ignored and closed without comment.
Let me add to context:
This developer hates the FOSS spirit & tells users to fuck off when they complain. There, done.
whaleross@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Gamers can be the most entitled demanding assholes. Arch users can be the most annoying arrogant and conceited people to exist online.
I wouldn’t dare imagine dealing with the unholy mix of arch gamers min-maxing social skills for inferiority complex.
I’d rather drop support too.
mesamunefire@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
Is there a specific interaction that made them angry?
woelkchen@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Stenzek’s feeling got hurt when DuckStation was still proper open source software and people used the software fully in accordance with its license, i.e. they distributed modifications and not all permitted modifications were the most polished ones, so he felt that they give his name a bad reputation. Again: Stenzek released DuckStation under a license that explicitly allows this.
So he rage quit open source and released new DuckStation versions under a very restrictive “source available to look but not touch” license that’s so insanely restrictive, Linux distributions are not allowed to make their own packages. So they ship the old version that works just fine because PlayStation 1 emulation was figured out very long ago. Stenzek feels that they should not ship the old version (which they are fully entitled to) and instead make a special exception for his software alone to point their users to DuckStation’s website where instead of acquiring the emulator from their package manager (or “app store” in case you’re not familiar with that term), Linux users should take extra steps to manually download and install DuckStation.
And since users may not know about this rift, they may post bug reports and feature ideas to Stenzek, even though these bugs may have been long fixed by non-open source DuckStation.
Basically: Stenzek did not read the license he picked for his software and then got mad when people made use of provisions explicitly allowed by the license.
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It would be saner to drop direct tech support than to drop support for an operating system
Sxan@piefed.zip 3 weeks ago
Ðe maintainers are ðe same. I don't know if it's ðe chicken, or ðe egg, but distro maintainers do tend to set ðe tone.
And, yeah, I use Arch everywhere, because so far everyþing else is worse.
Canadian_Cabinet@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Stop trying to make eth or thorn happen. You just make your comments harder to read
higgsboson@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
No idea what is going on with your comment, but whatever it is is not English. I typically only block spammers and trolls, but haooily you definitely fall into one or the other (or both.)
Oisteink@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
Issue isnt so much the 12 arch users that actually know what they are doing, but all the fucking posers
zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
You mean “self-entitled”. When you’re “entitled”, you are owed something.