I’ve had an unreasonable number of arguments against people who seemed to think animal was a synonym for mammal. Thankfully, we’re now in an era where you can look it up and show them now mobile data is cheap, so it’s become a winnable argument.
Honey
Submitted 4 weeks ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/14d75ca3-4025-4577-b1dd-64ecf5360bec.jpeg
Comments
AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
OpenStars@discuss.online 4 weeks ago
Except they still don’t care, and resent you for edumacating them. Whatever you say, they “win”. Welcome to the post -information age.
troyunrau@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
I rarely judge someone for ignorance unless it is wilful. I pretty harshly judge people who cannot assimilate new information. Over time I think I might be evolving from INTP->INTJ as I age. I used to have more patience and would try to encourage people to learn and adjust.
emeralddawn45@discuss.tchncs.de 4 weeks ago
Or they don’t care because they’re using it in a colloquial sense and 90+% of people they talk to would understand their intended usage, so they resent being lectured on semantics rather than responding to the meaning behind their words.
Hylactor@sopuli.xyz 4 weeks ago
Historically I still “lose” these types of arguments as my willfully ignorant interlocutor spams potential strawman and ad hominem “arguments” until they feel sufficiently convinced that my pesky facts and I are safe to ignore.
In my experience there are very few people worth arguing with, as there are very few people willing to argue in good faith. Most people see arguing as a battle to be won or lost rather than a mechanism by which to vet assumptions. How can you expect to argue with a person who is unable to argue with themselves?
Kalkaline@leminal.space 4 weeks ago
I feel like a lot of these posts are people just “poking the bear” and others end up taking them seriously. I understood this concept fairly early because of my family’s heavy use of sarcasm and seeing Calvin’s dad (of Calvin and Hobbes) explain things. Sometimes your best bet is to just not give the lesson and leave it alone so it doesn’t get unnecessary attention.
Enkers@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
I’ve deleted so many half written comments thinking “If this is what they think, do I really want to deal with the absolute garbage response I’ll inevitably get back?”
Matriks404@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Sure, but remember that there’s sometimes a scientific term used incorrectly, but it’s so widespread it has non-scientific definition in dictionary. Although thinking that insects are not animals is indeed stupid.
Enkrod@feddit.org 4 weeks ago
First, let me agree that everything in the kingdom Animalia is, in fact, an animal.
But now let me point out that many of the people who say shit like this might not speak english as their first language. Many languages have different words for animal for different types of animals. I tried to find out what I’m half remembering but I can’t find it quickly and I have to get to work. But I vaguely remember that some word that’s usually translated as animal into english actually doesn’t include insects. Just like the english “deer” at one point in time refered to all wild beasts (but not fish or fowl) and now only refers to Cervidae.
AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I’m referring to arguments I’ve had in person against native English speakers. If they were online arguments, the ability to use mobile data to show someone a citation wouldn’t be a new development.
angelmountain@feddit.nl 4 weeks ago
Stupid discussion. It does not matter whether something is in the box “vegan”. Ask yourself why you would or would not eat something. If you don’t want to eat(/drink) dairy because of the way the animals that produce the dairy are treated, would you be ok when they are treated differently? Are bees treated in the same way? Does it matter if you treat them in this way? Those should be your questions, not “does it belong in this box?”.
Toofpic@feddit.dk 4 weeks ago
But it will ruin the achievement badge I want to show in my profile!
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 4 weeks ago
Animal ethics isn’t just about whether other animals are being harmed or killed, it’s also about being against exploitation. They might not be able to think in quite the same way that we do, but it’s still clear that they have their own wills and lives of their own that they want to live. It’s worth asking ourselves if we really want a society that’s willing to exploit and turn other thinking beings into commodities, even the ones whose thinking appears to be so much more rudimentary than our own.
It’s easy to dismiss them because they’re “just bugs”, but presently bugs of all species are facing radical population declines with all the ecological instability - maybe even looming collapse - that brings. Maybe we collectively might be more willing to protect bug populations and do more to protect our environments if more of us stopped to analyze our anti-bug bias and considered that they have a natural right to life like we do. The planet does not exist solely for us.
Also, honey is essentially a refined sugar that’s no better healthwise than table sugar. Date sugar/powder is a sweetener made of whole fruit and is a much better choice. Plus, it’s just weird to want to eat the vomit of other species anyway.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 4 weeks ago
As for the exploitation, all living things have their own lives. Even plants seem to be able to communicate to some degree and can be stressed and stuff. Either you’re OK exploiting living things to some degree or you die. The level of exploitation is what should be discussed. Is beekeeping harmful to bees? I don’t know, but it doesn’t seem like it.
As for it being sugar, sure. Sugar isn’t bad though. Sugar is bad when consumed in the quantities the average American consumes it. It also has other properties that make it pretty good for your health. For example, I think it’s good for preventing allergies because it contains pollen (I might be making this up, but it seems like I’ve read that somewhere).
Plus, it’s just weird to want to eat the vomit of other species anyway.
Do you realize that fruit is the ovary of a plant? Life is weird. Get over it. Weird is not a word that should come into a discussion of ethics.
Comment105@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
Honey, the food of the gods by ancient opinion, is suddenly weird?
I will never like vegans.
Dutczar@sopuli.xyz 4 weeks ago
Don’t we help bee populations by building homes for them?
Also, and I did wonder about this, what do homestock want out of life more than food, getting laid, and taking a walk or run? I think even the smarter ones like octopuses just want to get food and live until making kids.
starman2112@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
Entirely true. My favorite stupid argument is about lab-grown meat. People don’t seem to understand that veganism is practiced for a variety of reasons. Is lab-grown meat vegan? It depends on the vegan.
My rule of thumb is that I’ll eat it as long as nothing was injured or killed to make it. Factory farmed eggs? Nah, I’ve seen videos of macerators. My neighbor’s chickens’ eggs? Hell yeah, I’m friends with those chickens
AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
Like all ideologies idiots stick to the rules while forgetting the actual meaning behind them. Compare how Christians act to what their Christ taught.
homicidalrobot@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
Sorry, is this post satire or are you talking about satire you did not recognize? NEVER seen a vegan call breast milk non-vegan and have in fact actually seen more discussion about whether vegans should be breastfeeding children at all, I.e. is it healthy to do so with their diet.
You’ve put the word debate in quotation marks flippantly like there’s an obvious answer, but I’m pretty sure you just misunderstood a conversation rife with sarcasm or taken out of context (or straight up made it up).
xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
I’m no vegan, but I think a large incentive for veganism or at least being vegetarian is the carbon footprint as well. A plant-based diet is much more sustainable than with meat, as in vertebrates. I think invertebrates would be great alternatives but the west-influenced culture is not very fond of eating invertebrates except for crustaceans.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
If you can explain a vegan way to get milk, meat, or honey then I’m all ears. You seem to be implying there is some gray area here.
JayObey711@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
No he’s implying that eating something just because it is “Vegan” is not understanding the point. Vegans usually don’t eat stuff because it’s bad for the environment or because they see animals as equal lifeforms and don’t want to cause them harm. If you don’t eat most animal products because of the environment then you might be ok with eating oysters on occasion. They have a similar co2 footprint as most vegetables. Similarly honey has an even smaller footprint.
angelmountain@feddit.nl 4 weeks ago
My point is that there is no real way to explain what “vegan” really is, since it means different things to different people and all of these people have the best intentions.
So my point actually is, instead of focussing on what to call “vegan” and what not, the discussion should be about bees.
For instance, do they care if you take their honey? Are they harmed? And should I care about whether they are harmed?
shasta@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
This question is still valid from a marketing standpoint. If you’re selling honey, are you able to advertise it as vegan?
angelmountain@feddit.nl 4 weeks ago
True. Though marketing is a cancer in itself. But I guess that’s a different discussion 😬
Kyle_The_G@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I feel like bees are a bit of a grey area. We’re not eating them, we’re kind of like landlords that give them a nice place to stay and they pay rent in honey. I’m not vegan so I’m not quite sure what the rationale is for bee stuff.
dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 4 weeks ago
Best friend’s a vegan who raises bees. He doesn’t clip wings or use smoke. From what I gather he basically just maintains their boxes, feeds them sugar when it’s too cold for em, and collects honey when it’s time. Someone is about to come along and say “he’s not a vegan. Sounds like a vegetarian” and then I’m going to think “sounds like you’re gatekeeping a lifestyle like it’s a religion, and not even all vegans who don’t use honey agree on whether or not a vegan can use honey” but I won’t, because I don’t wanna get wrapped up in the nonsense.
But either way, yes, some vegans do use honey. And some, like that theoretical commenter, don’t eat anything that casts a shadow.
leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 4 weeks ago
don’t eat anything that casts a shadow
Anyone who doesn’t exclusively survive on naturally dried up lichen ain’t no real vegan in my book!
cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 4 weeks ago
Personally I’m not sure the gate keeping you’re observing is all that much of an issue. I think it’s useful to remember many vegans are also public advocates for veganism. It’s important to them that people generally know what they mean when they advocate for veganism.
However, the definition of all words are always in flux. It’s not uncommon to see people call themselves vegan when a more apt description of their lifestyle would be plant based, flexitarian, vegetarian, etc. As such, I think edge cases like your friend take on an outsized importance that goes beyond the morality of your friend eating honey.
Basically, the goal may not be the social exclusion of your friend which is what I think is usually the problematic aspect of gatekeeping.
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
also - does this distinction matter? Is someone who runs 100m dash vs an ultra marathon runner both runners? When I run for the bus I’m also running. Sonic the Hedgehog also runs. They have distinctions in context that make sense - but they are all running.
littlewonder@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Beekeeping family here: who the fuck clips bee wings?
sukhmel@programming.dev 4 weeks ago
not even all vegans who don’t use honey agree on whether or not a vegan can use honey
Exactly this, veganism is ethical choice, and ethics is not science. You can’t ‘prove’ that something is acceptable, nor vice versa. There are guidelines and discussions but that’s pretty much it.
So this is really not about whether bees are animals or not.
neidu2@feddit.nl 4 weeks ago
I’m not sure I’d be comfortable with my landlord harvesting my vomit as rent.
“I’m eating it, I promise it’s not a sex thing.”
BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
If my bank accepted vomit as mortgage payments, they could smack my ass and call me bulimic, I don’t care what y’all do with my vomit, let’s talk about pool house options and a second car.
I’d be cool with creaming their coffee twice a week if it meant I got my house for no money.
Notyou@sopuli.xyz 4 weeks ago
Idk…how much vomit?
littlewonder@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Not just vomit but a snowball train of vomit.
JayDee@lemmy.ml 4 weeks ago
I don’t think many would accept their gardens being pilfered either, though they might be more accepting if that’s how they paid rent.
multifariace@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I find vegan intellect fascinating. I love hearing their responses to my epistomology. They all make it up as they go along. It’s very similar to religious beliefs in the way it is personal. Each has their own set beliefs on where to draw the line of what is vegan and what is not.
My personal understanding of the world is that plants aren’t so different from animals that they can be classified separately from other food sources. For example, how much different is r-selected reproduction from a fruiting plant. Plants react differently to different colors of light and so do we.
It helps to understand the goal of a vegan. The extent to which we are tied to every living thing on Earth means that many vegans have set impossible goals.
Just fascinating.
ebc@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
I’ve always wondered if vegetables from a farm that uses horse-drawn tills instead of tractors would be vegan… It’s a real question, but everyone I ask thinks that I’m trolling.
Robust_Mirror@aussie.zone 4 weeks ago
I mean I think it can be boiled down pretty simply: cause the least harm to living things that you can personally manage. Having impossible goals isn’t necessarily a bad thing. If your impossible goal is to make a billion dollars ethically, and you get to 50 million being 95% ethical, you could still consider that a win, even though you didn’t reach your impossible goal.
Even the simple goal of “always being a good person 100% of the time” is probably impossible to achieve over an entire lifetime while meeting every person’s definition of it. That doesn’t mean it’s useless for someone to strive for that within their definition of “good person”.
In fact I’d say the vast majority of meaningful, non trivial goals could be considered “impossible”.
itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 weeks ago
ethical vegans (and not people who eat plant-based for nutritional reasons, and often get conflated with people doing it for ethics reasons) generally agree on one very simple rule:
To reduce, as much as possible, the suffering inflicted upon animals.
That’s it.
Where that line is drawn of course depends on your personal circumstances. Some people require life-saving medicine that includes animal products, and are generally still considered vegan.
I’d like to see what about this confuses you and your epistomology [sic, and that word doesn’t mean what you think it means]
Dyskolos@lemmy.zip 4 weeks ago
It’s easy to judge down from that high horse of i-dont-care.
I’m no vegan (nor vegetarian), but the mission of an animal-rights-activist (that is also logically vegan in consequence) is surely to minimize any harm (s)he knows of. It’s very simple. The limits of a dietary or fashin-trendy vegan is not so clear. As they usually don’t really have spent a lot of time reflecting about it, but just follow some basic idea they’ve found somewhere. And maybe try to “adapt” it a lil.
Also your plant-argument was had like 30yrs ago already. Makes you sound super-intelligent, having figured out their major flaw all on your own :-)
The goal is not impossible. The goal is (or probably just should be) to minimize suffering if its existence is not unbeknownst to us. That’s really a very basic logic that doesn’t require much computing power.
Hammocks4All@lemmy.ml 4 weeks ago
What a word salad. Your comment can be applied to anything because people are different lol. All my friends who are dads have different ideas on how to be a dad. Fascinating. It helps to understand the goal of a parent. All my friends with jobs define success in different ways. It’s like they’re all making it up as they go along. Fascinating. It helps to understand the goals of a worker.
It’s ok to set “impossible” goals if you view them as directions rather than destinations.
Fascinating huh?
chuckleslord@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Couple of reasons. One, honey is made not from local pollinators but from European honey bees. Two, European honey bees are really good at producing honey, which means they’re more efficient at removing pollen and nectar from flowers, denying food for native pollinators. Three, while only a few bees are directly harmed during honey harvesting, the need for their honey to be harvested means that they’ve been bred to make big, uniform honeycombs and a glut of excess honey. This makes them more susceptible to diseases, even before you factor in the monoculture nature of their existence.
Essentially, it’s not that eating honey is harmful to bees. It’s that the creation of honey at scale is cruel both to the bees producing the honey and the native pollinators who get pushed out by them. We (my household) do have honey on occasion, but only from local, small scale honey producers.
TherapyGary@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 weeks ago
Well landlords are the badguys so…
Bosht@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
So my wife went vegan for a bit and the logic is basically any living thing we take advantage of or make their lives more of a labor. So eggs, honey, milk aren’t vegan because companies put those animals in situations they normally wouldn’t be in in the wild to take advantage and harvest products from them.
Ephera@lemmy.ml 4 weeks ago
Eh, I doubt most people care about being vegan for the sake of being vegan, but as has been said, honey bees are bad for pollinators, so from a moral viewpoint, you get to the same conclusion.
Ultimately, though, honey isn’t hard to give up. Certainly nothing that I felt was worth contemplating whether it’s grey area or not.
At best, it’s annoying, because the weirdest products will have honey added. One time, I accidentally bought pickles with honey, and they were fucking disgusting.Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 weeks ago
I don’t think comparing beekeeping to landlordism makes it sound very ethical at all
Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
It’s not like that bees are being strapped down and milked. It’s silly to not eat honey cause of veganism. If you’re that vegan move to the woods cause every product or archive you use in life has involved an animal in some way.
Anticorp@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
One of my best friends is vegan. They won’t use anything that comes from animals. Nothing. That includes wool, even though the sheep is harmed in the process. They’re absolutely opposed to any animal products or bi-products.
Aermis@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Bees produce honey. Chickens produce eggs. Can’t eat eggs. Can’t eat honey.
Idk I’m not a vegan either.
Chev@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
As long as we canot ask them, if it’s ok if we take their honey (consent), it’s not vegan. For an counter example, it’s fairly easy to get consent from a dog to touch them. Most people are able to tell if they are fine or not.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 4 weeks ago
Same reasoning like in fish and christianity.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 4 weeks ago
SharkEatingBreakfast@sopuli.xyz 4 weeks ago
Some folks believe that fish aren’t animals, either.
Lux@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 weeks ago
Reasons that I, as a vegan, do not use honey:
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I cannot guarantee that the bees consented to their product being harvested. Some beekeepers clip the queen’s wings, which can prevent the colony from leaving.
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I cannot guarantee that bees were not harmed in the process of harvesting (potentially getting crushed by the honeycomb frames, for example) or in the process of controlling the colony (like clipping the queen’s wings).
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SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 4 weeks ago
Kinda tongue-in-cheek questions, but: Honey isn’t an animal body part, it isn’t produced by animal bodies, so if it is an animal product because bees process it, is wheat flour (for example) an animal product because humans process it? How about hand-kneaded bread? Does that make fruit an animal product because the bees pollinated the flowers while collecting the nectar?
bstix@feddit.dk 4 weeks ago
Honey is a by-product of bees, the same way that all human made food is a by-products of humans.
pewgar_seemsimandroid@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 weeks ago
if it needs to be pollinated by bees or wasps, then it’s not vegan (insert troll emoji i guess)
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Honey can be vegan. I have a friend who keeps endangered bees and as an unintended side effect of fostering their growth has honey that she has to give away because she doesn’t want it
NutWrench@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Can you milk a bee? I didn’t think so!
Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 weeks ago
Bees are gubbermint drones, and honey is simply concentrated 5G chemtrail juice that gives you super autism.
iAvicenna@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
fungi?
Zozano@lemy.lol 4 weeks ago
EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de 4 weeks ago
excuse me I need to eat meat in front of vegans again.
solsangraal@lemmy.zip 4 weeks ago
i guess this person refuses to work or patronize a place that uses pest control for cockroaches?
Iron_Lynx@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Non vegan here. 🤔
Soooooo honey is not extracted directly from the bees, so that would be an argument to declare honey vegan.
On the other hand, even with modern beekeeping tech and modular hives, one could argue the act of taking honey to be a serious intrusion on the bees’ life, so that could be an argument that honey is not vegan.
One could argue where the line lies with eusocial organisms. Do you consider the individual bees or do you consider the whole hive? Whole hive? Honey may not be vegan. Individual insects? Honey could be vegan.
It really depends on your standards. One vegan friend of mine does drink mead (honey wine, for the uninformed) for instance.
Etterra@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Well since we’re constantly digesting our own dead microfauna, I’d say that it’s literally impossible to be fully vegan, so they might as well stop trying and spare us their obnoxious bullshit.
rekabis@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
Any that’s the hypocrisy of Vegans. Milk and honey are the only two animal-based food sources that don’t involve the killing of animals. And in the case of most cow breeds, milking is actually needed as they have been bred to produce far more milk than their calves drink. And with careful management of the hive, you can harvest a lot of honey from a mature hive without negatively affecting the hive itself - it just delays/defers new queen production and swarming, which is desirable anyhow - no beekeeper who has hives primarily for crop pollination wants to have hives swarming each and every year.
theneverfox@pawb.social 4 weeks ago
It seems so silly to me. Do plants not feel pain?
They do. I learned it first hand… You can call it stress if you like, but plants most certainly experience suffering
Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 weeks ago
I appeal to the Director of Veganism!
RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
What the fuck? Does she think honey composed of dead bees?
mhague@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
How is there 4 posts but one reply? Who said something first, the “bees, not animals” thing?
P4ulin_Kbana@lemmy.eco.br 4 weeks ago
I want to learn Latin. I need better time management and less distration.
weeeeum@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I feel like instead of a giant push for veganism, there should just be a push to eat what’s sustainable.
Beef and dairy? Causes huge amount of greenhouse gasses and with current methods of production, it is not sustainable
Blue fin tuna? These things have been way over fished and are endangered. Not sustainable, just try it once and move one with your life.
Tilapia ? These things grow like weeds and can be fed efficiently. Go ahead, good source of protein for your diet.
Honey? We need bees and they are an important pollinator for crops. Go nuts (just watch your sugar intake}
Almonds? Takes huge amounts of water to grow and exacerbates droughts in the areas they are farmed. Eat less of these.
Potatoes? Grow stupid easily in all sorts of conditions. Go nuts.
Rob@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I’d already be very happy if everyone took your approach, but it’s not the entire story for veganism. Sustainability is an important factor for myself and many others, but so is animal welfare.
It’s a bummer that animal welfare is pretty much inversely correlated with emissions. Packing chickens together and making their lives miserable is much better for the environment than having them roam free.
Veganism happily aligns with environmental sustainability. But when you believe we shouldn’t exploit animals at all, just pushing to eat what’s sustainable ignores a lot of pain and cruelty.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 4 weeks ago
I think “exploitation” is the wrong word to be used. I’m not vegan, so I really have no bearing on this, but exploitation doesn’t equal harm.
This post for example is about bees. They’re being exploited (in that we’re using them to get resources), but is it harmful? I have trouble saying yes. It seems somewhat ideal for them. They get to go about their lives like normal, though usually in a place with a lot of flowering plants, and they get taken care of. Occasionally honey is gathered from them, but this doesn’t actually harm any bees.
I think vegans follow dogma too much. They should consider their reasons for themselves, and consider what food sources fall into that. The dogma is useful for quick communication and sharing of information, but I would suspect honey farming is a lot better for the living things involved than even a lot of plant farming, which requires large swathes of land to be dedicated to farming, which certainly isn’t good for native species and arguably plants can feel too.
srestegosaurio@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 weeks ago
Potatoes are kinda OP imho.
(I also agree with you btw).
weeeeum@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Yeah exactly, people arguing whether dragon fruit or some shit is a “super food”. The super food is right in front of us, potatoes (and onions).
What other food has been so vital to our survival that its disappearance could ravage a population (Irish potato famine)
No offense to dragon fruit, blue berries or whatever exotic fruit, but if they went extinct, not that much could change.
TriflingToad@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Potatoes OP must nerf
LordWiggle@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
About honey: we do need bees. But taking away their honey which they work really hard for to sustain their colony during the winter and replacing it with sugar water is really bad for them and makes their colony weak. They can get viruses, bacteria and fungi much faster, which they can spread to other colonies or when splitting up when their queen dies.
Next to that, bees we use for honey are a very aggressive territorial species. They claim their territory and all the other bee and whasp species are killed and pushed out. There are many bee and whasp species who do not live in colonies but are very important for the biodiversity. Replacing them with our bees, which will die and get sick faster because we take away their nuteician rich honey, is a bad idea.
We do need our bees, but in reduces quantities to keep the balance. But we shouldn’t take their food.
racemaniac@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 weeks ago
I’d say the issue is that if honey isn’t vegan because you’re causing harm to bees, isn’t most of modern vegetable agriculture at least equally harmful to bees & other insects due to all the pesticides being used?
Or is it just if we directly involve bees, it’s bad, but if we inflict greater harm in a less direct way, it’s acceptable?
khaleer@sopuli.xyz 4 weeks ago
I mean bees are producing way more than they are using. We just shouldn’t take it all.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
Turns out that what’s sustainable is often what is vegan. Vegans are constantly discussing the edges of all this stuff trying to come to a better understanding, its somewhat natural that they would provide some of the most well-reasoned and substantiated arguments.
Honey and tilapia are not sustainable currently. Its a demand issue. Rules and regulations will never prevent an industry from meeting demand. Thats why we currently use practices at large scale we never would at small scale.
markstos@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
We do need bees, but that doesn’t mean the honey industry is sustainable.
greenmatters.com/…/how-honey-industry-affects-env…
JayDee@lemmy.ml 4 weeks ago
I agree for the most part. I would like to point out that fish farms are actually very damaging to the ecosystems that they sit in. The excrement ends up dropping down in single locations, burying the seafloor in it. IIRC, this often leads to the oxygen levels in the water dropping, which further kills off the surrounding aquatic life.
commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 weeks ago
what makes you think this?