[Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?

Submitted ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨CalciumDeficiency@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨nostupidquestions@lemmy.world⁩

Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL

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TIMMAY@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Obviously there’s the stereotype and that is what it is, but I usually get irked at the suggestion that it’s easy and an imperative. Veganism and other similar diets are an EXTREME luxury, and is only a viable option for a small percentage of the population. It would never have been an option in the past and is still not remotely an option for most humans.

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- naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  lmfao people have been vegan thousands of years ago e.g. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma'arri
  
  beans and rice are poverty foods, not luxury. Meat is a luxury food.
  
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  - g_the_b@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I think the fact that the Wikipedia article you linked describes this guy as one of the biggest assholes of all time says a lot
    
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- Floey@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I became a vegan at a time in my life where I was close to being homeless. It might be hard for some people to switch to a plan based diet (veganism is more than a diet) depending on their access to a grocery store or food bank or people who can’t choose what they consume such as children, but it is definitely not a luxury.
  
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- UckyBon@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Poor you with your poor meat. Look at all the poor people feasting on turkey and salmon!
  
  I grew up rich, so I only had beans and rice. Sometimes a carrot because it’s prices like gold. My broccoli is a luxury as well. Marbled steak is for peasants.
  
  I mean, do you even hear yourself?
  
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Postmortal_Pop@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
My personal experience has actually been quite whew opposite of everyone here apparently. Of the 3 vegans I’ve spent time with, not one of them has ever brought it up to preach or to sound smug. It only ever comes up because I ask for a recipe they served and they say something along the lines of “now, this is a vegan recipe, but you should be able to substitute ‘x’ with ‘y’ if you wanna avoid that.” It’s never preachy, it’s always in the “don’t let this being vegan ruin it for you” kind of way.

My low stakes conspiracy is that vegan hate on the internet is like people that don’t like the word moist. They either watched friends and decided to adopt that as a personality trait, or they look up to someone that did just that. They hate veganism because they watched a comedian quip about it and agreed or they saw someone that watched a comedian and agreed. It’s all too consistent to not be feeding from the same bowl.

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- gmtom@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Yeah. I think 90% of these guys complaining about militant vegans have never actually come across one. But have heard sotries about them from other people or the news and just assimilated that as part of their own experience. Much in the same way racists here stories about how bad immigrrants are from newpapers and use that to form their opinions.
  
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- IamtheMorgz@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I’ve not had this experience with vegans because I don’t really know many people who are vegan, but I always find it funny when a vegetarian says something like “you could add chicken or beef if you wanted” when the whole point of asking for the recipe is that you liked it enough to try to make it again… It’s kind of adorable and sweet.
  
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  - Postmortal_Pop@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yeah I find it delightful, it’s inspired me to make vegan, gluten, free, and allergen free variations of all my recipes incase someone ever needs them.
    
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dojan@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Speaking as a life-long lacto-ovo vegetarian who did a ten year stint as a vegan (I’m 30), it’s because there is a subset of the vegan population that’s very gung-ho about their diet and wants to proselytize about it, and no one likes being told what they should eat. When you remark on people’s diets, people tend to get annoyed and defensive about it.

I grew up being told that my food looked yucky, how I can’t call something meatballs since it doesn’t contain meat, how since I don’t eat protein I’ll die, so on, so forth. It got annoying fast, so now I don’t generally discuss my diet unless it makes a contextual sense. e.g. when planning a restaurant outing with people - though to be frank I often just avoid social situations where food plays a role.

I think where the big clashes really happen is when someone has made veganism/eating meat a core part of their identity, having that criticised, however gently that might be, will cause friction and often cause people to double-down on it; even though they may know on some level that the criticism might even be valid. You can see this in the fat pride movement as well,

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- BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Bingo!
  
  It’s the “identity” thing that fouls up so much today.
  
  “You have to accept everything do because it’s my identity”.
  
  Um, no, I don’t have to “accept” anything about you. Nor do you have to “accept” anything about me. Hell, I figured this out when I was five. Fine, you don’t like something about me? Then I won’t waste my time with you. Thanks for making it clear.
  
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  - dojan@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I don’t think we view this quite the same way. I don’t see a problem with something being a defining part of someone’s identity, because it’s not up to me to decide how other people ought identify. We all have identities so on some level everyone identifies with something. Just because say, you and I don’t get how diet can be an significant part of someone’s identity, doesn’t invalidate it being significant for someone else. It just means that we haven’t lived the same life and that’s fine.
    
    In a way we do have to accept other people’s identities, because what else can we do? We can’t force change on others, all we can really do is acknowledge the situation and then choose whether or not we want to continue interacting with them.
    
    It doesn’t really get problematic until you have someone that does try to force things on others. My mother was one of those militant vegans, and she lost a lot of friends for it. She’s the reason I am vegetarian, and the reason I was vegan for a long time. Back then I never had much choice in either regard.
    
    Being vegan wasn’t even really a defining part of her identity. Her trying to force it on others was also less about trying to change others, and more about trying to place herself in some sort of morally superior position to them. She pretended to care about their health and the environment - hell on some level maybe she genuinely did care - but it really was more about making herself look and feel better about herself because she was (and is) a deeply insecure person pretending to be otherwise.
    
    As a final aside; what I’ve written above is what I consciously believe, but I’m obviously not an infallible person. I’m an extremely cynical, nihilistic, and definitely a judgmental person. I try my best not to be, and to see things from the perspective of others, but some days I succeed better than others.
    
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johnlobo@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
they hate vegan preacher. how do vegan promote their ideas? by saying meat eater are murderer. by calling people meat eater. meat bad. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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- Kacarott@feddit.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  But I mean, that’s literally what their ideas are, how else should they promote them? Are you mad that they aren’t just pretending that meat is good, for the benefit of the listeners?
  
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Stern@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
You tend to get two groups who dislike it. Ignorant folks who think something like no animal stuff means no protein means you shrivel up and die, and the ones who’ve encountered a few too many militants in their time and ain’t interested or are downright sick of their schtick. Vaguely similar to atheism, except replace the animal product stuff with something religion related, ofc.

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- riplin@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Except you don’t see atheists throwing a tantrum. So not like atheism at all.
  
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  - Stern@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    if you think internet atheists can’t be just as obnoxious as internet vegans you clearly haven’t been around enough of them.
    
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  - Behole@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Get real. Every single group that lives outside the heteronormative, christian nationalist banner has fit-throwers. Saying that there aren’t those atheists but certainly are those vegans is as dumb as any other half-baked argument out there.
    
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  - Mastengwe@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    That’s ALL they do. I say this as an atheist that avoids atheism on the internet like it’s a disease.
    
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Juice@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’m an ex vegan (about 5 years) so I’ve been on both sides if it. Here’s my opinion.

When I was a vegan it was very much a part of my identity. It was something that I thought about 2-3 times (at least) per day when I ate, and any time I went to buy food. I remember being actually insufferable about it for a long time and I’m pretty sure I’ve lost friends over it, being annoying and preach to a friend’s husband and then eventually just not getting invited back for game night. So people are definitely feeling burned/rejected/otherized by vegans who, if not just coming right out and saying it, strongly infer that you are a “bad person” for consuming even small amounts of animal products, or at least let you know that you’re being judged for it. As an ex-vegan I’ve experienced this myself.

On the other hand, non-vegans are also insufferable about food. My friend in college didn’t like cheese. Hated how it tasted, hated the way it felt in his mouth. But he loved pizza. He would often buy pizzas for everyone, with cheese on, pick the cheese off himself, and eat it without. I swear that every time he did this someone would say something about it, “what? You don’t like cheese? Why?!” I personally had to endure a lot of weird questions and looks, and comments when after volunteering for a whole day at a baseball field for my son’s team, and they served pizza after which I just refused. I just quietly didn’t get myself any, and people had like 20 questions about it. I didn’t even bring up that I was a vegan, I just said I wasn’t hungry, which was odd and apparently unacceptable.

Vegans and vegetarians also get judged for their diets, there are plenty of non-v people who will become like preemptively defensive about it, and let you know they think you’re weak and unhealthy. You get otherized and judged, even if you dont care what people eat and you just patiently say that its a personal choice, for health or the environment or whatever. This actually deepens the in-group acceptance/out-group rejection of everyone involved. The next time a vegan has to hear about their choices they’ll be less patient with the person asking; the next time that person eats an egg around a vegan and gets lectured, they’ll be less patient and around and around it goes.

I have theories about why this is, some of which maybe are apparent from what I’ve read. I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted. I’ll get into it if anyone gives a shit.

But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not. This is the thing that drove me away from veganism: I think that vegans are right about a lot of things, but they can’t actually see the world for what it is, they can mostly only see through this lens. This is basically the same problem with liberals, conservatives, religious, atheist, whatever. Its the cult of the individual having eroded any experience of interconnectedness, even though we are interconnected. As such, people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.

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- zalgotext@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted.
  
  But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not.
  
  people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.
  
  Very well put, and agreed on all points, especially the bit about how this sort of in-group/out-group behavior is not limited to food. Veganism/food opinions in general are particularly clear examples of it in action though.
  
  I forget where I first heard this, so unfortunately I can’t give proper credit, but I once heard that we’d all get along better if people learned to say “that’s not for me” instead of “that’s disgusting”, and it’s really stuck with me. Like who cares if someone doesn’t like cheese on their pizza? Picking it off is hurting no one. It’s a food preference, it’s not that serious. Let people enjoy things the way they want to enjoy things. If it isn’t immoral or harmful, let people be. People doing things differently from you is not grounds for you to question or ridicule. Have some empathy, have some respect, have some semblance of open-mindedness, and let people live their lives, man
  
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  - Teppichbrand@feddit.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I get what you are saying and I agree with “thats not for me”. The difference to other personal preferences is that as a carnist, you are paying for literaly billions of our fellow earthlings being killed on an industrial scale. So many that it’s destroying our livelihood. So this is not a personal choice anymore, there are victims you do not notice, human and non-human. A lot of victims, 1.9 Million chickens killed in Germany every day.
    Once you realise this and you have had the courage to really look beyond the word slaughter with your own eyes, see the inconceivable suffering, this becomes something I can not push out of my sight anymore. And then you realise it’s everywhere. So what to you do?
    
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  - Juice@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Right, I agree, have empathy and respect, open mindedness. But without getting into it too deep, you know how do I empathize or respect others when often we don’t empathize or respect ourselves? It’s this involuntary and constant process of turning out and externalizing. Please don’t consider this a call out, just an illustration because I know you don’t mean it this way, but by the end of your thought process you are like out grouping some imagined person who is doing this thing, creating an in group between you and I, and others who still behave this way. And I can be as cognizant as I want about this, but I also commit to these groups, and I have recent examples of this toward ideological groups I encounter in my political organizing. People who I used to not have a problem with, I now am extremely suspect of, because this was done to me. Its like baked into our language, or the ways in which we derive meaning. And maybe to some extent its unavoidable, or at least will be until some severe cultural shift happens that changes our ontology and language.
    
    But many people have noticed, from all walks of life, you will hear, “we have never been more divided.” And yeah sometimes you hear this from people who probably don’t have our best interests at heart. But this campism has only increased since, idk, Trump? COVID? The neoliberal turn of the late 70s early 80s? Who can say. But if that’s true, and this phenomenon has increased over time, then maybe it can decrease as well. I hope so. There’s a lot of changes that need to happen to society, and quickly, but without that respect and empathy you talk about, I worry about what might happen to people. This out grouping can quickly turn into dehumanization and worse if not checked. And I don’t know what to do there except at least try and model that behavior and try and discuss it when I can.
    
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- perdvert@lemmynsfw.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Big point about changes to public discourse and insightful.
  
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  - Juice@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Thank you
    
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kibiz0r@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Cuz it itches the part of our brain that looks for status-seeking behavior and labels people as inauthentic.

Being vegetarian places a degree of exclusivity onto your consumer habits, and in the Western capitalist lens, conspicuous consumption has a lot to do with how we communicate our status.

Being vegan stands in direct relationship to vegetarianism as being even more exclusive. This does two things:

It raises the stakes, because now the identity is even more exclusive because it’s more restrictive.

It creates a pattern, where it looks as if you’re saying “Oh yeah? Well, I’m even vegetarianer! Take that! Look how cool I am!”

Just that in and of itself puts vegans on the receiving end of a whole bunch of cognitive biases.

But wait, there’s more!

Because mass production never lets a social identity go to waste, major brands got on board with explicitly labeling things as vegan, which starts to make it seem like you’re trying to be cool but really just deepthroating the corporate cock to “buy your way to cool”.

And then came the trends of organic/non-GMO, local-first, artisanal, farm-to-table, etc. etc.

At the point where Wal-Mart has their own artisanal farm-to-table cheese brand, it starts to look (to our dumb pattern-matching brains) like vegans are just rubes falling for the most basic version of an obviously fake status-seeking game propped up by cynical brands preying on how desperate you are to look cool.

But wait, there’s even more!

Because, surprise – our brains never actually stop caring about status, even if we think we’re just trying to make rational, objective, moral choices. Picturing yourself as a rebel for being vegan, taking the sneers and the insults in stride because you know it’s the right choice for the planet… is appealing.

And that self-aggrandizing image is inseparable from actually doing the thing, because that’s just how our brains work. Even for the most pure-hearted among us, thinking we’re morally superior – especially in tangible ways that we get to physically play out on a daily basis – is intoxicating.

So the people who are chuckling about the inauthenticity are… kind of right. But this same dynamic exists for literally everything. So when you chuckle at the vegan, but then take a moment to consider which kind of bacon really speaks to who you are as a consumer, you’re playing the same game. It’s just one that far more people are invested into. So if anyone calls it silly, nobody takes that criticism seriously. Not like your organic local-first artisanal acai kale kombutcha.

–

Basically my recollection of this episode of You Are Not So Smart: soundcloud.com/…/selling-out-andrew-potter

…which I listened to, for the first time, as an attempt at bonding with my then-girlfriend/now-wife’s roommate. We had not gotten along up until then, because she was aggressively vegan and I ate a lot of fast food. But I found out she liked podcasts and I was really enjoying this one and there was a new episode I hadn’t heard yet! She really enjoyed it, until the guest talked about veganism as a form of status-seeking. That didn’t go well. I didn’t mind taking over her half of the lease though.
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- howrar@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  then-girlfriend/now-wife’s roommate
  
  Had to do a double take on this.
  
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- atkion@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This is a great write-up, thanks for your take.
  
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essell@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
My list…

Sometimes they’ll offer their opinions as “proof” that they’re “right” It’s expensive, so often vegans are people with resources others don’t have and yet they act like this isn’t a thing They’re right that it’s way better for the environment and it annoys me that I’m contradicting my own values on that point There’s an abuse of science at times, which always bothers me, even in the name of a good cause. If you’re right, let the truth do the talking.

Just off the top of my head…

Not all vegans, etc…

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- Twinklebreeze@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Some vegans make the argument that it’s not more expensive, and fresh ingredients are pretty cheap. This ignores the time it takes to actually make dishes with fresh ingredients. A lot of people that are less well off don’t have the time to spare.
  
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  - ReiRose@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I agree. It doesn’t cost a lot to buy lentils and make dal, but it takes time.
    
    The problem is really our entire food system is geared towards profit and the excessive suffering that comes from that. If you want to eat meat a little more ethically…you have to spend more or have the time to raise animals yourself.
    
    Vegans vs meat-eaters is distraction from humans vs industrialized food. Vegans are correct about the suffering of animals, but those that focus on preaching to convert would find their time best spent being compassionate to those that can’t make changes.
    
    Some small changes include:
    
    have one more vegetarian day a week
    
    in a restaurant select the vegetarian entree or three vegetarian side dishes in stead of a meat main course
    
    buy from local farms if available
    
    make some mushy Peas for a lunch option
    
    meal prep (vegan/vegetarian food does freeze easily and is easy to reheat)
    
    if making a dish that contains ground meat substitute (homemade options below)
    
    I mean to do it all at once is not easy. Making small changes over time can improve health and save money. Thinking about the suffering of the animals can be detrimental, because you may associate making vegan choices with thoughts of animal suffering. I used to subscribe to a vegan magazine, but half of it was amazing recipes, and the other half was distressing animal stories.
    
    mushy peas (use margarine or olive oil instead of butter)
    
    mushroom “forcemeat” and other substitutes
    
    dal recipe
    
    You’re not a terrible human if you eat meat! It’s not easy to change, but doing a little bit can go a long way. See if you can cut it down ❤
    
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dodgy_bagel@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I have never, ever, heard someone in real life bring up veganism unless it was specifically in the context of what they eat.

The problem is, it comes up. Food is a very foundational element of social life. Sharing a meal is important, providing a meal as a host is important, and supplying food at events is customary.

Rejecting the offer to put something in their body is misunderstood as an insult.

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- hydrospanner@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This is a good point, although maybe I’m just unlucky, but quite a few times over the years, I’ve encountered friends, and friends of friends, who were vegetarian or vegan and seemed to make a primary hobby out of shoe-horning that information into any and every conversation they could. And every time, it was very deliberately and openly presented in a way to praise themselves and demonize anyone not like them.
  
  Not only is food very foundational, as you’ve said, but I also strongly feel that a reason this particular set of -isms is such a lightning rod is because (perhaps due in large part to that foundational aspect of food in society), it seems like vegetarianism and veganism very much becomes who someone is, as opposed to simply describing an aspect of their lifestyle.
  
  Not only that, but it becomes a part of their Identity in a way that frequently impacts the people around them.
  
  So someone is a Catholic. That’s cool. I’m not one and I might have my issues with the Catholic church, but unless they’re extremely devout, chances are, their Catholicism is more “how they worship” and less “who they are” in everyday interaction. It just isn’t likely to affect me, and as such I’m much less likely to really care. As such, I’m cool with Catholics. Add to that: most Catholic people aren’t painting their religious belief in superiority either overtly or implicitly these days. They’re just going to mass on Sunday and doing their thing.
  
  On the other hand, someone is vegan. That’s also cool. I might have preferences and a lifestyle that conflicts with their views and vice versa but we can coexist, and our preferences on what to eat won’t ever lead to conflict between us, right? Well…if they’re a coworker…or a member of a friend group, now any and every time that group of people wants to eat, that foundational aspect of society, now the group must accommodate that -ism which they don’t share. And that’s probably fine for everyone in the group sometimes…and some of the group all the time…but generally speaking, looking at all of the group, all of the time, that’s statistically likely to eventually rankle at least a few people. Then, depending on the individual, there’s a very real chance that they eat with this group, some of which may already be annoyed by having their food options limited by the choices of this individual…and on top of it, that individual takes that opportunity to make a comment that invokes morality into the situation…and it should come as little surprise that this type of person gets a generalized negative reputation.
  
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mechoman444@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
No body hates veganism as a concept in and of itself. People dislike vegans that think they’re better than everyone else because they eat no animal product.

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- rudyharrelson@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  There's definitely animosity toward veganism as a concept itself. The types who use the term "soyboy" and boomers who consider eating lots of red meat some kind of manly recreational pastime.
  
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  - xmunk@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yea, those guys are just assholes though - even friends I have that love steaks are aware it’s a luxury that shouldn’t be expected everyday.
    
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  - xePBMg9@lemmynsfw.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    They are used to there being teams in everything. If you are not like me, you are with the enemy team.
    
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- Ilikecheese@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s definitely not true. Just yesterday I was eating a salad (with chicken and bacon even) and I had an older coworker pass by and grumpily tell me he didn’t eat rabbit food.
  
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- ASeriesOfPoorChoices@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I do.
  
  because vegans hate honey. And we need more honey because we need more bees. (Yes, this topic is more nuanced than that, and is species and geographically limited, but it stands.)
  
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  - mechoman444@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    If you have the ability to hate an entire demographic of people based on the actions of a few in that demographic you really need to take a moment for some self-reflection.
    
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muse@fedia.io ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Vegetarian here (I like cheese, sue me)

Just wanted to point out a reason not listed:

Look at the people posting succinct points in here without attacking. Then go look at the downvoters, and follow them back to the vegan magazines where they're rather caustic, to put the least. Not everyone likes being compared to nazis when we're just existing in the same food chain as every other animal, carnivore or no.

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ogmios@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Because the only way most people interact with vegans is through activists using it as a bludgeon to project hate towards them.

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- NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  No, that’s the only way most people KNOW that they are.
  
  The most common is probably passing them in the halls at work, knowing nothing about their dietary choices.
  
  Edit: Autocorrect
  
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- Carrolade@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s only true in select places. Most people in one place can have different experiences from most people in a different place, due to the places being different environments with different populations.
  
  The majority of the internet is definitely among the places you’ve described, though.
  
  Source: I’ve lived in both types.
  
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  - BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    How do you know someone’s a vegan?
    
    Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.
    
    Same with any evangelical.
    
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Aceticon@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Imagine that you go to an outdoor barbecue on a bright Summer day.

And some guy who is an extreme Muslim is going around telling some women that they’re not dressed in a modest enough way and that people people should follow the Teachings of the Prophet and how life is a lot better when people follow the Teachings of the Prophet.

It’s not Islam that’s the problem, it’s certain kinds of people, their proselytising and, worse, their trying to force or even imposing their own moral values on others.

Same with Veganism and some kinds of Vegans: because it’s a moral choice some of those who practice it have the very same behavioural disfunctions as religious nutters.

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- blackris@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The problem is: most times it works the other way. You are at a barbeque and bring your own stuff. There are always people who feel obliged to talk shit about you – or worse, cannot shut up about their own meat consumption, how they only buy the „good“ meat and only seldom, but how hard it would be without cheese and so on.
  
  Yeah, there are some preaching vegans, but those few are not the reason why some people are hating on us.
  
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  - HelixDab2@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I’m married to a vegetarian that used to be vegan. She saw far, far more preaching vegans than not. Many vegans believe that militancy is required, in the same way that anti-abortion activists believe that mobbing women at clinics is the only moral choice.
    
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- jo3rn@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Now imagine there’s an outdoor barbecue and you’re a pig and the only person speaking up for you is disregarded by everybody else as a dysfunctional nutter.
  
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  - Aceticon@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    So are you saying that that following the Teachings Of The Prophet on how a woman should dress in a modest way and in all other thinks in life, alhamdulillah, is less important than speaking for a pig!!!???
    
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Syn_Attck@lemmy.today ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
For me it’s the high-horse holier than thou attitude most of them seem to carry in online conversations. I know a fee vegans and they are mostly fine in person after the first few months of radicalization, but I imagine they just suppress it in person to maintain the acquaintanceship and then bitch in their vegan echo chambers about how “my co-worker who knows I’m vegan had the audacity to order a hamburger and eat it in front of me knowing I’m vegan, does he know he’s destroying the world with that Burger… AITA?”

If you’re looking for scientific answers, good luck they, Inrhjnjbmost people stop worrying about micromanaging people after a few years of academia.

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Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I don’t think many people truly hate veganism, they are just frustrated by a few of the louder vegans out there.

For example, some vegans are very judgy - they will unabashedly tell non-vegans that eating meat is morally reprehensible. They also often want you to watch brutal videos of animal abuse and slaughter, with the overt overtone being an accusation of “you are doing this. It’s your fault if you eat meat.”

I’m not sure how any person who isn’t vegan could possibly see that as anything but unwelcome. Life is hard enough without this sort of thing.

This said, I know plenty of vegans that never do this. I think it’s awesome that they can avoid meat, and I applaud and support alternatives like impossible and beyond.

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- UckyBon@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Why are meat-eaters always acting like they’re the victim?
  
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  - irreticent@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Well, when someone is being attacked they tend to feel like the victim in the exchange.
    
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- kaffiene@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  They’re not wrong
  
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  - MIDItheKID@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    “You’re not wrong Walter, you’re just an asshole” -The Dude
    
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Makeshift@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Vegans simply existing make people feel uncomfortable, so defense mechanisms in the brain trigger.

Since it’s an ethical stance, and people at least deep down know that killing innocent animals for 5 minutes of taste pleasure is wrong, but they don’t want to change themselves.

So the brain tries to rationalize how it’s definitely not wrong and really the vegan is wrong, and/or demonize the position to shield itself from the discomfort of knowing.

Basically psychological defenses kick in to defend unethical behavior that someone highlights by simply existing.

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- johnlobo@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  this kind of comment is exactly what make people hates vegan. lmao.
  
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  - bastion@feddit.nl ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I don’t hate that people choose to be vegan. I hate the self-righteous bullshit humans get about veganism, science, religion, and anything else they start considering a moral high ground.
    
    You don’t have a moral high ground. You have a biological and/or social niche. That’s enough to be proud of, without dissing other people’s shit, or pretending yours doesn’t stink.
    
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  - UckyBon@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    What would make you love vegans?
    
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  - Deway@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Many non-vegan psychologists do agree with it though.
    
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- grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Also if the vegan is being preachy and judgemental that this somehow totally undermines their point, which can now be ignored because some vegans somewhere were hypothetically rude.
  
  We can have a conversation about effective and respectful rhetoric, but the material and ethical facts of the argument are not going to change.
  
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BirdEnjoyer@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Its because they ran into the loudest, most annoying vegans.

IDK how, maybe different areas have more militant vegans, or maybe they just roll with negative stereotypes and the algorithm bs that lets the worst folks float to the top of their media feeds.

I've actively sought out vegans because they have great advice on dietary restriction resources and as long as you're respectful of their choices, they've been consistently so willing to share.

And they also really love a good breakfast, in my experience, like the local vegan group has just pages of discussion on good vegan donut resources.

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- hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Its because they ran into the loudest, most annoying vegans.
  Yeah. I think it’s a loud minority thing. The non-annoying vegans are much less likely to mention their veganism than annoying vegans. As a result, some people only (knowingly) interact with annoying vegans and start to believe that all vegans are like that.
  
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- whome@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I doubt that, I would think it’s like xenophobia it’s usually the strongest in pretty homogenous areas.
  
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- gmtom@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Its because they ran into the loudest, most annoying vegans.
  
  Honestly not even that. Im willing to bet most of these people crying about militant vegans havet ever even come across one. But have heard a story from from some shitrag newspaper that reported on some vegan doing something a thousand miles away from them and then used that to form their opinion on all vegans
  
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kaffiene@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I think some meat lovers get aggressively opposed to vegan ideas because they know that vegans are morally correct. I say this as a meat lover

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- vodkasolution@feddit.it ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I totally don’t see like that, I eat meat too
  
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  - kaffiene@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Good for you
    
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- Atomic@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I don’t think they’re more morally correct. Because I don’t think it’s morally incorrect to eat another animal.
  
  We can debate the treatment of animals in how they are kept. But that’s another topic. And a wide one because it varies a lot depending on where you’re from.
  
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  - rudyharrelson@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    I don’t think it’s morally incorrect to eat another animal.
    
    I don't think most vegans think so, either. It isn't the eating in and of itself, but the suffering that occurs on the path to being food. Gas (petroleum) is widely considered vegan because, even though it's made from dead animals (dinosaurs), they didn't suffer and weren't exploited to create it; they died of natural causes. Vegans (typically, I believe) don't consider eating meat to be cruel if the animal dies of natural causes. Steer, aka castrated bulls, get their balls chopped off because it helps produce more meat (ironically steer are more muscular than bulls, TIL). I'm a guy (albeit not a vegan), and it isn't hard for me to see that's unnecessarily cruel and inhumane treatment.
    
    We can debate the treatment of animals in how they are kept. But that’s another topic.
    
    It's not a separate topic at all. Vegans primarily care about animal suffering, which is a direct result of how the industry largely operates. Not all vegans are opposed to simply killing an animal to survive; that isn't the core issue for most. Yes, killing an animal for food can be avoided, but as long as it's a quick/clean kill, like an arrow to a major artery, it's fine from a survivalist perspective because it's humane and not unnecessarily cruel.
    
    The meat industry is accountable for the undeniable mistreatment of animals in the course of producing food for the masses.
    
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  - kaffiene@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Treatment of animals is very much a part of the moral issue. Causing suffering is clearly a moral issue. Also there are the environmental impacts to consider.
    
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rsuri@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Do-gooder derogation

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IvanOverdrive@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
To preface this all, I’m not a vegan but I support the cause. However on the west coast of Canada, a lot of shitty people use veganism as social camouflage to cover for their moral failings in other areas. I just don’t trust anyone that trumpets their veganism. Like like I don’t trust the overtly religious.

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- Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  How do you support the cause of stopping animal exploitation while exploiting said animals?
  
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  - cyrus@sopuli.xyz ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    In spirit
    
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Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Because brains are wired to avoid 1) changes to habits and 2) admission of wrongdoing. Encountering a vegan makes the brain start running cover and looking for ways to discredit arguments. Often, the mental framework for dismissing “uppity” advocates already exists. There’s also the force of money and industry propaganda which should be acknowledged, but in my experience people are more than capable of coming up with justifications on their own.

It’s very difficult to overcome these psychological forces, but simply making the switch can remove a lot of cognitive dissonance and expose certain BS arguments for what they are.

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Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I don’t hate vegans. I even dated one for a while. She would eat veggies, I would eat meat. It worked because neither of us were dismissive of the others choice.

I do hate being preached to. I think most people do. Many of my encounters with vegans were ones where they were very hostile to me. For just not being vegan. I wasn’t going around telling them veganism was bad or that they were a terrible person for being vegan. I have been told that by vegans. That I am a bad person for eating meat.

I have to eat meat I have always had a high metabolism. At various times in my life my maintenance diet had to be at least 3,000 calories. Plus of course any additional food needed for non maintenance activities. Additionally I’m allergic to soy. This means that it would be nearly impossible for me to have gotten enough food without eating meat. I am pretty certain that if I had not eaten meat and animal fat. I would have died as a child, or at best had serious issues with nutrition. I was well fed as a child. I could eat as much as I wanted, still many of my memories of childhood were ones of hunger.

I even explained this to someone once and they responded by saying “well you didn’t die” and then heavily implied they wish I did. As if me not dying made my point invalid.

This is why I am skeptical of vegans and vegan ideology. It is often toxic, and actively tries to hurt and shame people. Even people like me who are effectively choiceless in regards to eating meat.

Often even non-militant vegans will allow this behavior. I know how frustrating it can be to be told you need to police your own community. Though that doesn’t mean it’s okay to allow bad behavior amongst your peers.

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wolandark@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
no one hates veganism, we just hate the vegans

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paraphrand@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I guess I’m lucky I’ve never personally known anyone to preach about their diet.

For someone like myself, this all sounds overblown and just a meme/trope you see in movies and TV.

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TheBananaKing@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
So, here’s the thing.

Regardless of a hundred different ethical and meta-ethical theories that people espouse, what everyone actually reacts to with outrage is plausibly-generalised threat perception.

If someone’s actions are directly threatening you, you’ll feel anger and/or fear.

If someone’s actions don’t affect you or yours, but <stuff like that> being commonplace definitely would, then you will feel outrage.

If I kill people and take their stuff, you’ll be very upset: you’re a people, and you like stuff - and if we let the general case happen, the specifics could come bite you in the ass soon enough.

If I kill and eat animals, most people don’t consider it plausibly worrying that they or little Timmy will be next. We have great big enormous taboos against eating people, so that slope just don’t slip - and as a result they just don’t have a problem with it.

(If I go and torment animals for lulz, then that’s a very different case; people who are cruel to animals are often even worse to people, after all - and so people see that as monstrous. And again, if you want to manufacture consent for some atrociy, the easiest way is to reclassify the victims as qualitatively different. Oh good lord no, we’re not killing people and taking their stuff, that would be awful. Nonono, we’re killing <group> and taking their stuff, totally different proposition…)

So when vegans are horrified at people killing and eating (or breeding and milking, or whatever) animals, and go to great lengths to try and elicit that same outrage, there’s a disconnect and dissonance going on. The non-vegans don’t have the emotional trigger of perceived threat, so to have them keep trying regardless is seen as pearl-clutching and sleeve-tugging, like making up a sad story and loudly demanding that everyone weep about it on the spot. It’s uniquely annoying. And when you combine that with (perceived) moral superiority and a hypercritical attitude, it comes across as something like a Karen with BPD. It’s calling red on someone else’s scene; everyone is supposed to cater to the vegan’s emotional distress when there’s no corresponding emotion in themselves, and honestly that just provokes people to schoolyard bullying.

That’s at the core of it, I think. There’s a bunch of other annoyances around it, but I think they’re mostly after the fact.

Honestly if you want to make people feel that general existential threat, frame it in terms of ecological damage. Animal agriculture is horribly unsustainable and causes huge enviromnental problems, not least of which are are a truly gigantic carbon footprint. Pushing that angle would actually stand a chance of being effective, tbh. But annoyingly (from the outside), it seems that the most vocal vegans don’t want people to be outraged on that basis, they want them to be outraged for the poor little lambikins, and will settle for no less. I can see their point, and I can be a stubborn bastard myself about not settling, but jesus fuck it’s annoying.

Not a vegan, though I’ve been mostly-veggie for the last couple of years for health reasons. It’s interesting how it shapes your perceptions; eating meat doesn’t seem wrong to me, but it has started seeming weirdly excessive and uncreative.

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The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
People like to characterize those they already want to disagree with by the worst, most extreme examples of the group. So before even considering the benefits/drawbacks of veganism, people have already chosen their position after thinking “vegans are just so preachy and annoying”.

It’s putting outrage before reason, and it’s really common in social media and news:

Think about how Fox News viewers picture liberals as the least coherent, unreasonable individuals that they see get interviewed, when in reality most are just normal people.

Or the reverse: how people in liberal circles might see conservatives depicted as Maga-hat wearing weirdos who think 5G is killing them.

Same with how many religious people evaluate atheism or atheists think of religion by their worst representatives.

In short, I think the answer is that it’s a symptom of tribalism and identity-politics.
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SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There’s a ton of vegans who exist without trying to force their way of life on everyone, but the ones who do dominate the conversation and can be off putting.

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Shadowq8@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There is a push from the meat industry to make hating veganism the cool thing is what I feel is going on. Some militant vegans are honestly annoying.

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Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I don’t see many people hating veganism. I see a lot of people hating vegans pushing their ideology when it wasn’t asked for. The simple truth is that every person has different ideologies, beliefs, priorities, and ethical systems, and what makes perfect sense to one person sounds over-prohibitive, and any attempt at dialogue to find a middle ground ends with a bunch of moral posturing.

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Lhianna@feddit.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I have no issues with veganism but I do have issues with being attacked because I’m not vegan. I’ve been attacked for using cow milk even after explaining that I can’t use plant milk because of sensory issues.

Funnily enough, just like you said, I know vegans IRL who would never behave that way and of course I accommodate their dietary choices when I’m in charge of food.

I think it’s mostly an Internet thing when you just see the loudest minority instead of the more quiet majority.

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