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Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct

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Submitted ⁨⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

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  • el_eh_chase@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    You’ll still be a shit person, likely with no meaningful friendships. That’s gotta factor into the equation somehow.

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      People with low empathy don’t see people as companions, but more as tools to benefit themselves. So they don’t really care as long as they have enough money and pawns to take care of themselves.

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      • Eknz@lemmy.eknz.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Reducing other people to mere tools is a symptom of psychopathy rather than simply low empathy. Yes, psychopaths are within the set of people with low empathy, however, shouldn’t be confused with the set itself. It’s also specifically a lack of affective (warm) empathy that’s more of the problem than a lack of empathy in general, as some psychopaths do have cognitive (warm) empathy, and so do understand others (albeit to a limited extent), however, just use it to be more exploitive rather than less. This is by contrast with autistic people who often struggle with cognitive empathy but not with affective empathy, i.e. they don’t know how they’ve hurt people but they know they’ve hurt people and try to avoid doing so.

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    • matlag@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah, that’s what the rest of us try to convince ourself so that we can cope with it. That or the idea that these people must sleep very poorly thinking about what they’ve done, while we’re actually the ones who have poor sleep thinking about what they’ve done and feeling powerless.

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  • hitmyspot@aussie.zone ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’ve got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.

    However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.

    It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO’s are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it’s a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It’s likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.

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    • TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      The human brain really seems to be built for small communities. Once the village you live in is bigger than about 150 people, all sorts of weird things begin to happen. Some people no longer feel like they’re a part of the same group as everyone else. They begin to feel like they can get away with anything, maybe even steal something, or hurt other people. Being greedy doesn’t feel wrong any more, altruism feels like a weakness etc.

      I’ve been thinking about these things, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the world we live in is not optimized for the human mind or physiology. We’ve specifically designed a world that is bad for us in a number of ways.

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    • Saleh@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That is unless the bully messes with the wrong person and gets the shit beaten out of them.

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      • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        And then they become adults and find different ways to mess with people, hire bodyguards, expensive lawyers, group up with other corrupt people who find joy in people suffering, shit in their diapers under their suit, etc.

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    • olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I’d also want to see the same methodology when assessing being happy, have many close friends you can trust etc.

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    • TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I was curious about the studies. The only thing I came across about outcomes was this BMJ review that says:

      Bullies were more likely to have trouble keeping a job and honouring financial obligations. They were more likely to be unemployed.

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      • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        They’re probably referring to this study

        …com.au/…/25305-bullies-earn-more-later-in-life-w….

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    • brachiosaurus@mander.xyz ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      successful financially and socially

      Going around with a machete makes you more successful predator. Being successful financially doesn’t mean shit and neither does having followers on social media.

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      • datavoid@lemmy.ml ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Believe it or not, social interaction isn’t limited to social media. Or so I’ve been told…

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  • electric_nan@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It’s because we live in a system with perverse incentives. It’s practically designed by psychopaths, for psychopaths. Still, we only get one life, don’t spend it going against your better nature.

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  • vivalapivo@lemmy.today ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Yes and i would choose to have morals anyway

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  • lemmy_outta_here@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    This is only true in a world that is mostly full of people with morals. A society built on lying and manipulation inevitably collapses - look at what is happening to the United States. They elected an amoral lying manipulator and in just six months their society is unraveling. They just passed a law that took money away from hungry children and sick people so that their psychopathic leader can better persecute his enemies: that is, anyone who opposes him. ICE just became the best-funded “law” enforcement agency ever created. It is obvious to everyone except a handful of naive idiots that ICE will be used against US citizens to consolidate MAGA’s power in an attempt to create a permanent regime. These states always collapse sooner or later, though, because morality is the foundation of law. No one is going to invest in a country where their assets can be seized and they can be imprisoned on the caprice of a senile madman. You can’t have trade without trust - all that is left in places like the US are predators and prey.

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    • explodicle@sh.itjust.works ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      This unraveling has been going on a lot longer than just six months. It’s been accelerating hard since the Patriot Act after 9/11. And even before that, Republicans had been lying about their support of free markets for generations.

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      • GladiusB@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Sure it has. It’s been going on since the 70s and CEOs making 300 percent of the workforce. It is exactly the same as nobles and their taxes of the poor in almost every Empire’s history. And it always leads to a purge that changes things. We could be on the cusp of a Roman takeover. We could be on the cusp of a total collapse. Hard to say which way it’s going.

        Whatever it is, this will not last forever.

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      • MangoCats@feddit.it ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Published in 2014:

        theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-s…

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  • mitexleo@buddyverse.one ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It’s true. Still, I can’t lie for some reason.

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    • Michal@programming.dev ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It’s easier not to lie. Remembering all the lies is too much effort, and being caught can be particularly embarrassing especially if you already have social anxiety.

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    • WildPalmTree@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Try the game Warewolf (same concept goes by many other names). Most people find it really hard to lie, even if it is about nothing important at all and part of the agreed “social” rules.

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  • FreakinSteve@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I so wish

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    • kelpie_returns@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You could do it and then give me the money

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    • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Go to work for ICE, and be the worst worker in the history of America. Then you earned your money gumming up the works of an evil organization, and you can feel good about taking their money to hurt them.

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      • SabinStargem@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I would be alright with ICE getting fake armor plates, defective bullets, and boots with thin soles.

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  • SalamenceFury@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Maybe, but it also means that you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or cammaradie, and that by itself will consume you.

    There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don’t have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that’s not a bearable existence.

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    • garbagebagel@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah it really depends on what you consider success. For a lot of people, money & power isn’t necessarily the marker for success, and finding meaning and joy in life is more important. And I know that sounds like capitalist “money doesn’t buy you happiness” bs, but striving towards money and power consistently is the most capitalist thing you can do.

      I think people who are able to attain a good amount of money to survive and still maintain their morals and find joy, that’s success.

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    • HappySkullsplitter@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That doesn’t seem to bother the kind of people being described

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      • Saleh@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Does Muskrat seem like a happy and balanced individual to you? What about Coked up Bezos or AI Zuckerberg?

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    • GraniteM@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      via SMBC:

      Image

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    • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.

      I AM a morally decent person who makes efforts to do the right thing. And that last part is STILL true!

      I just don’t like most people.

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      • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Most people are selfish and amoral. When people like that encounter a decent person they will do what they can to silence them so they aren’t given the ability to expose corruption.

        You probably don’t like most people because most people are walking sacks of shit who would throw you under the bus if it means benefiting themselves

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      There are plenty of corrupt people who are never caught, or even caught and let go with little to no consequences due to their influence and money. As much as I want to live in a world where karma exists and assholes get what they deserve, that is unfortunately not the reality we live in.

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    • Artisian@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You can be selective with this power; works well for a lot of folks. Have a smallish in group where you’re always upstanding, enjoy all the benefits that our tribal brain craves, and also enjoy the material benefits.

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      • Bob_Robertson_IX@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Hey, you just described church!

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  • Salamanderwizard@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’ll die poor with morals rather than rich and evil. I’m okay with that.

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  • vane@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It depends where you want to go. Knowledge is always bigger than power, power gives money but knowledge gives depression and suicide thoughts. The fast escape path is obvious.

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    • DahGangalang@infosec.pub ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Image

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  • finitebanjo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Ha, not really. If your only measure of success is your bank account then you’re playing high risk / reward with a dishonest strategy that either lands you in prison or a jacuzzi.

    Then when you get to the really bad end of the spectrum, well…

    Do you think Hitler smiled as he killed himself?

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Everyone knows his body was a double and Hitler fled to Argentina where he changed his name to Mateo González to pursue a career in dog breeding and pastries for diabetics

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  • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’ve been self-employed for about 30 years, which puts you rubbing elbows with other self-employed business people.

    I have learned that while MOST people want to run a friendly, moral, legal business, and would never cross the line, there are a plenty of amoral businesspeople who don’t have any problems crossing the line.

    Furthermore, they are well-aware that many businesspeople won’t cross the line, so that makes their willingness to act illegally or immorally their personal competitive edge, and they absolutely look at it that way.

    They watch for decent, moral businesses, and they target them in various ways, either as a competitor, a supplier, a contractor, etc.

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  • thevoidzero@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Sure but it’s lonely at the top. If you rise to the top by backstabbing people, you’ll end up exactly how some people right now are, and you keep trying to accumulate more and be great or whatever messing up everything else and being hated.

    While a simple life with your loved ones will give you satisfaction. And satisfaction is the key to happiness. Rather satisfaction is the ultimate happiness.

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  • Eknz@lemmy.eknz.org ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It may seem this way at times, however, it really depends on the system you’re participating in.

    Have a play around with: The evolution of trust - ncase.me/trust/

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    • Aggravationstation@feddit.uk ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That was amazing and highly informative!

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  • LavaPlanet@sh.itjust.works ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Yay capitalism! Perfect reasoning not to feel bad lying on a resume.

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    • Speculater@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      If they can lie about the company and position, I can lie about my experience and fit.

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      • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I’m starting to think of writing down the specific things job recruiters tell me, and bringing it to the interview. The last recruiter that reached out (and succeeded in hiring me) told me things that didn’t end up being true. When I got hired and was told contradictory information, the company said, “Oh, that is still true, but this particular case is an exception. We can get you a different case where that is true,” and then they didn’t get back to me for weeks. In that time, I’d applied, interviewed, and accepted a job elsewhere. Fuck lying employers.

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  • Ephera@lemmy.ml ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    By some definition of “further”, sure. Mainly the definition someone with no remorse would have.

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    • Randomgal@lemmy.ca ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Exactly. OPs logic only works if your definition of happiness is money and going from being the oppressed to the oppressor.

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      • datavoid@lemmy.ml ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        From the perspective of a rich abusive CEO, they probably are happy. They get off on having power over people, and they do. Plus they can make more money than they can ever spend.

        People who become wealthy naturally seem to have some sociopathic traits, but generally they also don’t know how to stop working. They get everything they want by doing things they enjoy doing.

        I have a brother who is the CEO of a fairly successful business. He loves bragging about what he’s worth, and went from watching Silicon Valley and laughing extra hard at the bit where a bunch of companies in the show are pitching how they “want to make the world a better place” to giving me those words verbatim after bragging about how much money he has. He talks about how hard his job is and he wouldnt wish it on anyone… But I have worked with him on previous businesses, and he quite literally can’t stop working (even when high and drunk at 2am). I mean he literally CAN’T turn it off.

        Throughout my childhood (and still now), this person used extremely obvious domination tactics on the people around him. One of his favourite moves is to either start texting or talking to someone else while I am in the middle of speaking to him. I am willing to guarantee that having the ability to use obscene wealth to dominate people makes him slightly fucking hard.

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  • JPSound@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Depends on how you define “further”. I’d like to leave this earth knowing I had a positive impact on those i met while I was here. I can sleep easy at night, even dispte all the hardships in my life atm, knowing I’m doing the best with what it is I have. Also, in my early 30’s, I started to really internalize the, “having nice things means keeping things nice” i.e. you don’t need new shiny things all the time. Take care of what you already have and you’ll never be without.

    I can’t lie and manipulate my way into being a kind and honorable man, friend, son and brother. Me achieving those things brings me greater peace of mind and satisfaction than anything I’d ever need to lie my way into to get.

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  • Fletcher@lemmy.today ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    One doesn’t do the right thing to be rewarded or to ‘get ahead’. One does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. Selfishness only leads to insecurity and loneliness.

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    • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yep. That’s what the selfish ones have been telling us for thousands of years.

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  • thatradomguy@lemmy.world ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    House MD Pilot

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  • Bloomcole@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    And water is wet

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  • aesthelete@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Yup and add intelligence to the list as well. Smart means nothing if you can’t back it up with being an amoral pile of shit that takes advantage of people every opportunity you get.

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    • realitista@lemmy.world ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      If you are smart, you can afford the luxury of not being a complete piece of shit if you get into the right career.

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      • aesthelete@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        What’s the “right career”?

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      • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I feel like that has got to be pretty difficult unless you include jobs where you are personally isolated from and ignorant of the harmful things the company you contribute to is doing

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    • Samskara@sh.itjust.works ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It might mean money and success.

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  • plyth@feddit.org ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    That depends on how much people with morals stick together. People are isolated so that they can be manipulated.

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  • benni@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It makes a lot of sense. Lying and manipulation are done specifically to achieve goals. A defining characteristic of morals is that you’re supposed to follow them even if it’s neutral or disadvantageous for you. If someone follows “morals” to achieve a personal goal, they’re not actually following morals, they’re just acting in a way that incidentally looks moral.

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  • kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Depends what you mean by “further”. It is a trait that definitely serves well in some very lucrative areas like business or politics. But it very easy to ruin other aspects of your life like your relationships, your public image, and can run you afoul of the law. In areas of work where your image is paramount, being a liar and manipulator usually only gets you so far because it’s very hard to maintain those lies and hide the manipulation under massive public scrutiny, particularly if you’re doing illegal stuff in addition to it. Of course the wealthier you are, or the more fanatical your following, the more you will have others lie and manipulate on your behalf, so… accountability can decrease that way.

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    • MangoCats@feddit.it ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      it very easy to ruin other aspects of your life like your relationships, your public image, and can run you afoul of the law.

      Not when you succeed to the level that you can ignore the laws - which isn’t just one man in the US, not by a long shot.

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      • kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        That’s why I included the last bit. The law is more relevant when you are not someone too special. The higher you get, the less it matters, if only because more people have fallen for your manipulations or are cognizant of them but support them for whatever reason, and will defend you no matter what from actual justice.

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  • ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Maybe, but not in the next one.

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    • SomeSphinx@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      There is no “Next one” We get one life on this planet.

      Personally, I’d rather spend it in the company of good people and do good things.

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      • ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I agree entirely with your second sentence!

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  • JackbyDev@programming.dev ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The Evolution of Trust

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  • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Absolutely true and stating otherwise is just crowd control.

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    • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      See, we used to exile those types. Modern society lost that ability and now we have CEOs.

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      • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        That’s where Luigi enters the stage!

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  • Pencilnoob@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I disagree, other than a few notable counter examples most times folks are only successful when they build reliable business relationships. Most relationships will dissolve if one party is playing games.

    On average it’s more effective to follow “The No Assholes Rule”. There’s plenty of studies (referenced in the book Good To Great) that indicate that humble business leaders produce build more stable and long term profitable companies.

    Lying manipulators can sometimes get ahead but just as often they get found out and blackballed.

    I think it might be like a game theory type situation where if everyone is honest, then the first liar might get ahead a lot (although I suspect in that situation they’d immediately be shunned by all honest folk if found out). If everyone is a liar then honest folk have nothing to hide and probably will just be really defensive in their dealings.

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Business relationships are almost always purely transactional. When you stop being able to supply someone with what they want or at a good price then they will find someone else. The average CEO is not a friendly selfless person, which is why sociopaths find success in the business world.

      Do you believe that the majority of people who hold power and influence are genuine philanthropists?

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      • Duckworthy@piefed.social ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I think power and money corrupts people. Plenty of people who started out as honest business people turn into monsters.
        As you move up the ladder, less and less people are honest with you. Some are climbing the ladder because they are unhappy and that definitely makes things worse, they think money or power will make them feel better, when actually I’ve found living with less and doing things yourself is ultimately more satisfying.

        Anecdotally, I personally felt how wealth corrupted me - when my economy car was totaled and my insurance rental gave me a Mercedes because they were out of reasonable models . After a week of driving it I started feeling like I was better than other people on the road. Luckily I got a replacement crappy hatchback and became a normal person again.

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      • Nomad@infosec.pub ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Business owner here, even if not a very good one. These kinds of CEOs exist, but there are far from the norm. And they usually act that way because the owners of the company expect them to lead that way. There is a crowd mechanic of many people owning some of the stock of a company. It leads to some psychopathy as nobody feels responsible and everybody wants to earn some extra Money. Look into a documentary called “cooperation”.

        Most business people, especially the more successful ones are the classic boys club people. They get good deals by being friends and knowing people that give them access. It leads to a culture where what you earn has more or less nothing to so with what or how good you work. If you know the show billions, watch it and look for the making of episodes. There is a lot of real world experience in the writing.

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  • datavoid@lemmy.ml ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I live my life to spite these people :)

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  • Almacca@aussie.zone ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I wish this wasn’t true, but it’s tragic that it is.

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