Having the ability to lie and manipulate with no remorse will get you much further in this world than having morals and being correct

Comments

• lemmy_outta_here@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This is only true in a world that is mostly full of people with morals. A society built on lying and manipulation inevitably collapses - look at what is happening to the United States. They elected an amoral lying manipulator and in just six months their society is unraveling. They just passed a law that took money away from hungry children and sick people so that their psychopathic leader can better persecute his enemies: that is, anyone who opposes him. ICE just became the best-funded “law” enforcement agency ever created. It is obvious to everyone except a handful of naive idiots that ICE will be used against US citizens to consolidate MAGA’s power in an attempt to create a permanent regime. These states always collapse sooner or later, though, because morality is the foundation of law. No one is going to invest in a country where their assets can be seized and they can be imprisoned on the caprice of a senile madman. You can’t have trade without trust - all that is left in places like the US are predators and prey.

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  • explodicle@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This unraveling has been going on a lot longer than just six months. It’s been accelerating hard since the Patriot Act after 9/11. And even before that, Republicans had been lying about their support of free markets for generations.

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    • GladiusB@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Sure it has. It’s been going on since the 70s and CEOs making 300 percent of the workforce. It is exactly the same as nobles and their taxes of the poor in almost every Empire’s history. And it always leads to a purge that changes things. We could be on the cusp of a Roman takeover. We could be on the cusp of a total collapse. Hard to say which way it’s going.

      Whatever it is, this will not last forever.

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    • MangoCats@feddit.it ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Published in 2014:

      theonion.com/fbi-uncovers-al-qaeda-plot-to-just-s…

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• JPSound@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Depends on how you define “further”. I’d like to leave this earth knowing I had a positive impact on those i met while I was here. I can sleep easy at night, even dispte all the hardships in my life atm, knowing I’m doing the best with what it is I have. Also, in my early 30’s, I started to really internalize the, “having nice things means keeping things nice” i.e. you don’t need new shiny things all the time. Take care of what you already have and you’ll never be without.

  I can’t lie and manipulate my way into being a kind and honorable man, friend, son and brother. Me achieving those things brings me greater peace of mind and satisfaction than anything I’d ever need to lie my way into to get.

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• brachiosaurus@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Lying and manipulating people won’t get you anywhere further in this world. Having more money than someone or a better position in a company doesn’t actually mean shit.

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• Almacca@aussie.zone ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I wish this wasn’t true, but it’s tragic that it is.

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• TimewornTraveler@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  if that’s what matters to you, then sure, go ahead

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• benni@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It makes a lot of sense. Lying and manipulation are done specifically to achieve goals. A defining characteristic of morals is that you’re supposed to follow them even if it’s neutral or disadvantageous for you. If someone follows “morals” to achieve a personal goal, they’re not actually following morals, they’re just acting in a way that incidentally looks moral.

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• Eknz@lemmy.eknz.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It may seem this way at times, however, it really depends on the system you’re participating in.

  Have a play around with: The evolution of trust - ncase.me/trust/

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  • Aggravationstation@feddit.uk ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That was amazing and highly informative!

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• Strider@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Absolutely true and stating otherwise is just crowd control.

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  • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    See, we used to exile those types. Modern society lost that ability and now we have CEOs.

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    • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s where Luigi enters the stage!

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• Speculater@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Absolutely. Shouldn’t be where I am, but I feel like the world is full of gullible people.

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• Ephera@lemmy.ml ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  By some definition of “further”, sure. Mainly the definition someone with no remorse would have.

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  • Randomgal@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Exactly. OPs logic only works if your definition of happiness is money and going from being the oppressed to the oppressor.

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    • datavoid@lemmy.ml ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      From the perspective of a rich abusive CEO, they probably are happy. They get off on having power over people, and they do. Plus they can make more money than they can ever spend.

      People who become wealthy naturally seem to have some sociopathic traits, but generally they also don’t know how to stop working. They get everything they want by doing things they enjoy doing.

      I have a brother who is the CEO of a fairly successful business. He loves bragging about what he’s worth, and went from watching Silicon Valley and laughing extra hard at the bit where a bunch of companies in the show are pitching how they “want to make the world a better place” to giving me those words verbatim after bragging about how much money he has. He talks about how hard his job is and he wouldnt wish it on anyone… But I have worked with him on previous businesses, and he quite literally can’t stop working (even when high and drunk at 2am). I mean he literally CAN’T turn it off.

      Throughout my childhood (and still now), this person used extremely obvious domination tactics on the people around him. One of his favourite moves is to either start texting or talking to someone else while I am in the middle of speaking to him. I am willing to guarantee that having the ability to use obscene wealth to dominate people makes him slightly fucking hard.

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• aesthelete@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yup and add intelligence to the list as well. Smart means nothing if you can’t back it up with being an amoral pile of shit that takes advantage of people every opportunity you get.

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  • blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I know plenty of moral smart people who are doing very well in life.

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  • realitista@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    If you are smart, you can afford the luxury of not being a complete piece of shit if you get into the right career.

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    • aesthelete@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      What’s the “right career”?

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    • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I feel like that has got to be pretty difficult unless you include jobs where you are personally isolated from and ignorant of the harmful things the company you contribute to is doing

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  • Samskara@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It might mean money and success.

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• lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Or goodness is its own reward?

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• LavaPlanet@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yay capitalism! Perfect reasoning not to feel bad lying on a resume.

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  • Speculater@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    If they can lie about the company and position, I can lie about my experience and fit.

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    • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’m starting to think of writing down the specific things job recruiters tell me, and bringing it to the interview. The last recruiter that reached out (and succeeded in hiring me) told me things that didn’t end up being true. When I got hired and was told contradictory information, the company said, “Oh, that is still true, but this particular case is an exception. We can get you a different case where that is true,” and then they didn’t get back to me for weeks. In that time, I’d applied, interviewed, and accepted a job elsewhere. Fuck lying employers.

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• aoidenpa@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Exactly and I love it.

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• Fletcher@lemmy.today ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  One doesn’t do the right thing to be rewarded or to ‘get ahead’. One does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. Selfishness only leads to insecurity and loneliness.

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  • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yep. That’s what the selfish ones have been telling us for thousands of years.

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• Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Unless you’re mediocre at it and have adhd and then it’s just easier to always tell the truth so you don’t have to forget about something.

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• hitmyspot@aussie.zone ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.

  However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.

  It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO’s are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it’s a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It’s likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.

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  • blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Or the other option: all kids are equally capable of being dicks to each other. It just depends who has social capital. Kids who have the traits necessary to gain social capital - intelligence, athleticism, attractiveness, confidence, etc - end up on top of the social hierarchy in school and also end up going farther in life.

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    • hitmyspot@aussie.zone ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Theoretically, all people are capable of being president, but I ky very few get there, irrespective of ability.

      You’re right about their attributes being a guide. I reckon it’s down to the confidence, more than anything. Bullys are typically seen as acting out due to their own insecurity. However, the skills learned in putting themselves above others likely helps to achieve personal goals. It’s likely similar for attractive people and confidence. Confidence is a drug that affects other people.

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  • TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The human brain really seems to be built for small communities. Once the village you live in is bigger than about 150 people, all sorts of weird things begin to happen. Some people no longer feel like they’re a part of the same group as everyone else. They begin to feel like they can get away with anything, maybe even steal something, or hurt other people. Being greedy doesn’t feel wrong any more, altruism feels like a weakness etc.

    I’ve been thinking about these things, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the world we live in is not optimized for the human mind or physiology. We’ve specifically designed a world that is bad for us in a number of ways.

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  • TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I was curious about the studies. The only thing I came across about outcomes was this BMJ review that says:

    Bullies were more likely to have trouble keeping a job and honouring financial obligations. They were more likely to be unemployed.

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      They’re probably referring to this study

      …com.au/…/25305-bullies-earn-more-later-in-life-w….

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  • olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’d also want to see the same methodology when assessing being happy, have many close friends you can trust etc.

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    • blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And also how they assessed “being a bully”

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  • brachiosaurus@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    successful financially and socially

    Going around with a machete makes you more successful predator. Being successful financially doesn’t mean shit and neither does having followers on social media.

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    • datavoid@lemmy.ml ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Believe it or not, social interaction isn’t limited to social media. Or so I’ve been told…

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  • Saleh@feddit.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That is unless the bully messes with the wrong person and gets the shit beaten out of them.

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And then they become adults and find different ways to mess with people, hire bodyguards, expensive lawyers, group up with other corrupt people who find joy in people suffering, shit in their diapers under their suit, etc.

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• Venus_Ziegenfalle@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  While feeling numb and miserable

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• Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I mean, yea, that’s how the economy is kinda designed.

  In the employee-employer relationship, the better you are as an employer at manipulating others into working for you while you retain ownership of the revenue, paying employees out percentage of what they generated as a wage while keeping the excess value as profit, is how you make a successful business.

  The business-consumer relationship boils down to a transaction where you want to be the one who has the advantage on the transaction. Sellers want to sell their products for more than they’re worth while the consumers want to buy those products at a discount of their perceived value. The seller’s entire job is to manipulate the consumer into perceiving more value in their products than the base material value of the product to generate a revenue that exceeds the cost of its production to generate profit. That’s like the basis of advertising and marketing.

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• Pencilnoob@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I disagree, other than a few notable counter examples most times folks are only successful when they build reliable business relationships. Most relationships will dissolve if one party is playing games.

  On average it’s more effective to follow “The No Assholes Rule”. There’s plenty of studies (referenced in the book Good To Great) that indicate that humble business leaders produce build more stable and long term profitable companies.

  Lying manipulators can sometimes get ahead but just as often they get found out and blackballed.

  I think it might be like a game theory type situation where if everyone is honest, then the first liar might get ahead a lot (although I suspect in that situation they’d immediately be shunned by all honest folk if found out). If everyone is a liar then honest folk have nothing to hide and probably will just be really defensive in their dealings.

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  • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Business relationships are almost always purely transactional. When you stop being able to supply someone with what they want or at a good price then they will find someone else. The average CEO is not a friendly selfless person, which is why sociopaths find success in the business world.

    Do you believe that the majority of people who hold power and influence are genuine philanthropists?

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    • Duckworthy@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I think power and money corrupts people. Plenty of people who started out as honest business people turn into monsters.
      As you move up the ladder, less and less people are honest with you. Some are climbing the ladder because they are unhappy and that definitely makes things worse, they think money or power will make them feel better, when actually I’ve found living with less and doing things yourself is ultimately more satisfying.

      Anecdotally, I personally felt how wealth corrupted me - when my economy car was totaled and my insurance rental gave me a Mercedes because they were out of reasonable models . After a week of driving it I started feeling like I was better than other people on the road. Luckily I got a replacement crappy hatchback and became a normal person again.

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    • Nomad@infosec.pub ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Business owner here, even if not a very good one. These kinds of CEOs exist, but there are far from the norm. And they usually act that way because the owners of the company expect them to lead that way. There is a crowd mechanic of many people owning some of the stock of a company. It leads to some psychopathy as nobody feels responsible and everybody wants to earn some extra Money. Look into a documentary called “cooperation”.

      Most business people, especially the more successful ones are the classic boys club people. They get good deals by being friends and knowing people that give them access. It leads to a culture where what you earn has more or less nothing to so with what or how good you work. If you know the show billions, watch it and look for the making of episodes. There is a lot of real world experience in the writing.

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• SalamenceFury@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Maybe, but it also means that you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or cammaradie, and that by itself will consume you.

  There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don’t have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that’s not a bearable existence.

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  • garbagebagel@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah it really depends on what you consider success. For a lot of people, money & power isn’t necessarily the marker for success, and finding meaning and joy in life is more important. And I know that sounds like capitalist “money doesn’t buy you happiness” bs, but striving towards money and power consistently is the most capitalist thing you can do.

    I think people who are able to attain a good amount of money to survive and still maintain their morals and find joy, that’s success.

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  • GraniteM@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    via SMBC:

    Image

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  • Artisian@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You can be selective with this power; works well for a lot of folks. Have a smallish in group where you’re always upstanding, enjoy all the benefits that our tribal brain craves, and also enjoy the material benefits.

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    • Bob_Robertson_IX@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Hey, you just described church!

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  • HappySkullsplitter@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That doesn’t seem to bother the kind of people being described

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    • Saleh@feddit.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Does Muskrat seem like a happy and balanced individual to you? What about Coked up Bezos or AI Zuckerberg?

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  • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.

    I AM a morally decent person who makes efforts to do the right thing. And that last part is STILL true!

    I just don’t like most people.

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Most people are selfish and amoral. When people like that encounter a decent person they will do what they can to silence them so they aren’t given the ability to expose corruption.

      You probably don’t like most people because most people are walking sacks of shit who would throw you under the bus if it means benefiting themselves

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  • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There are plenty of corrupt people who are never caught, or even caught and let go with little to no consequences due to their influence and money. As much as I want to live in a world where karma exists and assholes get what they deserve, that is unfortunately not the reality we live in.

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