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Hertz, showing the difference between science and engineering

⁨1383⁩ ⁨likes⁩

Submitted ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨science_memes@mander.xyz⁩

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3c4966d9-4d71-458a-a529-53303a03ed99.png

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Comments

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  • artifex@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    He probably would have figured it out had he had time to evolve into Megahertz.

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    • niktemadur@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      He might have won the very first Nobel Prize, had he not passed away just a few years prior, and much too young, wasn’t he in his late-30s or early-40s?

      In fact, I believe that had Hertz remained alive and won his prize, the Nobel Committee would not have felt obliged to give it to Marconi a few years later.

      Marconi was a back-stabbing asshole who became one of the wealthiest men in the world by abusing the gentlemanly trust of others, and coasting on someone else’s technology - particularly the way crystals oscillate, and some of them serve nicely as a sort of “translation point” between electromagnetic waves and the physical apparatus that transmits and/or receives the signal.

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      • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        He might have won the very first Nobel Prize, had he not passed away just a few years prior,

        Basically the same thing happened twenty years later with Henrietta Swan Leavitt, who made a discovery that’s essential to figuring distances in space. She noticed something while working as a computer at Harvard College Observatory that eventually became known as Leavitt’s Law. Her Nobel nomination was halted because she passed away and the award is not given posthumously. Hubble’s work heavily relied on hers.

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  • yesman@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    If you think about it, almost all computer-technology is radio. Wifi, bluetooth, GPS, radar, and cellular are literally radio. Meanwhile everything else runs on transistor tech developed and refined… for radios.

    Our modern economy couldn’t exist if people like Hertz and Maxwell didn’t get to toy with their useless hobbies. But we can’t rely on the curiosity of the leisure class anymore. Basic research is expensive, necessary, and a public good. I’m afraid that the Trump regime has already spoiled the secret sauce that makes America the technology leader of the world.

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    • zaphod@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Transistors were mostly developed for telephone systems (the ones with wires) as a replacement for tubes. And the modern tech used for radios is very different from that used for computers.

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      • m0darn@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Ithink you could be more charitable in your reply. Transistors were developed to replace tubes in telephone systems… Okay but the tubes had been developed to where they were because of their usefulness in radio.

        And while computers don’t inherently rely on radio, it’s radio communication that’s taken computers from one in every office to one in everyone’s pocket. Right? The main thrust of the previous commenter is true.

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    • markovs_gun@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Even more than that, just proving Maxwell was right was a key stepping stone to all of modern physics. Maxwell, not Einstein, was the first to show that the speed of light is invariant, and Einstein’s Relativity was a framework for explaining how tf physics works if that’s actually true. Prior to Einstein, physists all just kind of assumed there was some flaw in Maxwell’s theorems to lead to this crazy speed invariance, but as the evidence just kept piling up in favor of Maxwell, they started having to wrestle with the uncomfortable thought that this could actually be true. In this sense, Hertz can also be thought of as an important step to Einstein and beyond, and almost all of our modern technology.

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      • Randelung@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        It’s getting pretty drafty up here. Giants on shoulders of giants all the way down. I can’t even see the bottom anymore.

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    • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Two inventions:

      • Internet
      • Computers

      are independent of each other, but go together nicely.

      You could have an internet (sort of) without computers. Consider Teletypers, FM Radio broadcasts, or Telephone.

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      • ragas@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        an internet (sort of) without computers.

        Really? You mean like the … telephone network?

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  • shutz@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Faraday, after demonstrating how moving a magnet through a coiled wire induced a current in the wire was asked by a visiting statesman what was the use of this.

    Faraday responded, “In twenty years, you will be taxing it”

    Similarly, at a demonstration of hot air balloons in France, Benjamin Franklin was asked “Of what use is this?”

    Franklin replied, “Of what use is a newborn baby?”

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    • Landless2029@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Everything I’ve ever heard about Franklin makes him a boss. This is a new one.

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      • musubibreakfast@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Here’s a little known fact that is not true, which will bring some nuance to the previous anecdote, Benjamin Franklin ate babies.

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    • davidgro@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Sounds like Faraday understood the… potential.

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      • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Funnily enough, Faraday seemingly also understood that the Electric Field only possesses a potential in the absence of changing magnetic fields. Because only in the absence of changing magnetic fields, the rotation of the Electric Field is zero, and only then it has a potential.

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    • Anti_Face_Weapon@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      That’s a really cool Franklin quote. Visionary.

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    • GraniteM@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      “Mr. Franklin, of what use is this hot air balloon contraption?”

      “You can take ladies up in it with a bottle of wine and a blanket and you know, they can’t refuse, because of the implication. Think about it. She’s floating up in the middle of the sky with some dude she barely knows. You know, she looks around, and what does she see? Nothing but open air. 'Ahhhh! There’s nowhere for me to run. What am I gonna do, say ‘no?’”

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    • Reddfugee42@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      That last bit is me when dealing with people who “aren’t impressed” by today’s AI.

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      • Saleh@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        The problem isn’t the “AI”. It is people praising its babbling as the solution for everything.

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      • ameancow@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        I’m not impressed by today’s AI and I also fully understand that the tech is going to completely upend society and will eventually be a part of our picture of utopia, or our picture of actual hell on Earth.

        The people who are screaming it’s wild wonders and benefits are at least as closed-minded as the people who think we’re going to be able to put the toothpaste back in the tube. The actual direction this tech moves is going to be far more like the discovery of radio, in that at the time of it’s discovery and early implementation, the people then had no idea the implications down the road and we’re at the same point. Except the big difference and why this is contentious is that radio was far less dangerous to society broadly.

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      • frezik@midwest.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        I’m unimpressed by the people who use it.

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  • Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I mean, it would be some 25 years until the radio was invented. And Hertz’ machine required a 30kV spark on a 2.5m meter long antenna with 2 solid 30cm zinc spheres, and his transmission range was something like “barely down the hall”.

    Not the most practical method.

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    • con_fig@programming.dev ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I’m sure someone thinks it’s perfect for their use case, semi relevant xkcd:

      Image

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      • ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        At least physics will never get patched. The spark device with zinc spheres will always do that thing.

        FCC: And get you arrested

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    • General_Effort@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Fun fact: The german word for using a radio is “funken”; literally “to spark”. A radioman is, or was, a “Funker”. When you are talking over the radio, you are doing it “Über Funk”.

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      • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        ooh i always guessed the word “Funk” comes from function, i.e. the radio is a useful tool that has a function to whoever is using it.

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    • jaybone@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      So like Bluetooth?

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      • dustyData@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        But somehow more reliable.

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      • Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Yes, except you need to buy each bit in a big glass jar

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    • Crankenstein@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Those practical methods would never have existed if not for Hertz’ experiments. Those were 25 years of other scientists, having seen that this new concept exists, refining his contraption into what eventually would become the machine that we know as a radio.

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  • ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I feel like I hear about this guy once every second

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    • Hupf@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Whatever you do, love Hertz

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    • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      which is about the frequency that the heart (german Herz) is beating with.

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  • expatriado@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    this type of science-discovery to usefulness-realization latency is the norm, pretty sure Curie didn’t envision nuclear power plants

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    • mmmm@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I suppose it’s like asking a biologist what type of dishes would they do with a plant species they just discovered

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    • ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      She didn’t envision a lot of things

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  • lobut@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    There’s a good NPR podcast in the same vein as this: www.npr.org/…/episode-779-shrimp-fight-club

    It’s about congressman talking about government waste and targeting the sciences. It’s like, you don’t get the “cool” applications without the “weird” research. I’m doing a horrible job describing it, but I thought it was a good listen.

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    • hobovision@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Planet Money has some really good episodes. Unfortunately, a lot of filler as well.

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    • jollyrogue@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Oh yeah. No one appreciates blue sky research. We don’t know where the question will take us, which is why governments fund the research. They can take on the 0.1% chance something useful is created 20 years later.

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  • snek_boi@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    This post tickles a fond memory of mine. I was talking to a right-wing libertarian, and he said there should be no research done ever if it couldn’t prove beforehand its practical applications. I laughed out loud because I knew how incredibly ignorant and ridiculous that statement was. He clearly had never picked up a book on the history of science, on the history of

    • electromagnetism (it would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn’t have a generator nearby when his eyes were being operated on with LASIK; generators are a technology built by basic research that didn’t have practical applications in mind)
    • quantum mechanics (it would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn’t have semiconductors in his phone, or if he didn’t have access to lasers for his LASIK surgery, both of which are technologies built by basic research that didn’t have practical applications in mind)
    • superconductivity (it would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn’t have superconductors for an MRI if he ever needs it, a technology built by basic research that didn’t have practical applications in mind)
    • radio waves (it would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn’t have radio waves for his phone and computer’s wifi and bluetooth to run his digital business, technologies built by basic research that didn’t have practical applications in mind)
    • X-rays (it would be a shame if the poor libertarian didn’t have x-rays to check the inside of his body in case something went wrong, a technology built by basic research that didn’t have practical applications in mind)
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    • jsomae@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      When talking with libertarians you should keep in mind they have completely different axiomatic values. It is often the case that they understand a certain policy would be on net bad for everyone, they simply don’t care. They are rarely utilitarian about those issues.

      I get along much better with libertarians who justify libertarianism with values extrinsic to just “muh freedom” – they are usually much more willing to yield ground in places where I can convince them that a libertarian policy would be net negative, and they have also moved me to be more open minded about some things I thought I would never agree with.

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      • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        and they have also moved me to be more open minded about some things I thought I would never agree with.

        Such as? I’m curious.

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      • InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Those are much rarevin my opinion.

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    • MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Bullshit. Lasers have been intended to gain interplanetary superiority since the dawn of time. We just didnt know they could also be used to read music from a circle

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  • P00ptart@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Was he the guy that started that rental car company?

    /s

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    • The_Picard_Maneuver@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      His customers lamented that driving was so boring and they wished there was some magical way for the cars to play music.

      Oh well. Nothing to be done there.

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      • P00ptart@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Just straight lazy… Shame.

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  • ByteJunk@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I feel like this is a very “scientisty” thing - the theoretical aspect is so fascinating and being able to fit all the pieces into a model that is mathematically accurate is the reward.

    Considering the practical application of the model and how it can benefit society (or in other words, be marketed for profit) takes a different set of skills.

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    • Crankenstein@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I absolutely detest the equivocation of “benefits society” and “marked for profit”.

      Plenty of things have been discovered to have practical applications which can benefit society yet are shelved or have its implementation frustrated because it cannot be exploited for profit or threatens the profits of a preexisting application which it would replace.

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  • gedaliyah@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    This may be an even better example than the positron. Originally a theoretical antimatter form of the common electron, with no practical application.

    Turned out to be a vital tool for medical imaging. If you or someone you know has ever had a PET scan, now you know what the P stands for.

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    • thefartographer@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I always thought it stood for “pepperoni.” So, you’re saying “PET” stands for “Positrons, Endives, and Tomatoes”?

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      • peoplebeproblems@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        No it stands for animals you keep at home.

        PET scan, its powered by hamsters.

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  • Anti_Face_Weapon@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    We stand on the shoulders of giants etc etc. But it seems odd to me that they wouldn’t think about using this for communication at least.

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    • Ronno@feddit.nl ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      It’s not always immediately obvious to what end you can use a new innovation. For instance, the Romans discovered and built a steam engine. But nobody connected the dots that it could be used to power a train.

      To me, it showcases the main reason why we need to collaborate. Only together, we can exponentially increase the potential of everything we build.

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      • Obi@sopuli.xyz ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Imagine industrial revolution Roman Empire, thank fuck they didn’t connect the dots.

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      • Kornblumenratte@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Herons steam “engine” had no power whatsoever and was not scalable. And even if it would have been scalable, they had had no fuel to drive it.

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    • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_radio

      By August 1895, Marconi was field testing his system but even with improvements he was only able to transmit signals up to one-half mile, a distance Oliver Lodge had predicted in 1894 as the maximum transmission distance for radio waves.

      I suppose beyond the engineering know how required they were looking at possible transmission ranges and thinking it simply wasn’t practical, square law and all that.

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      • squaresinger@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        This.

        There are often actual limits to what can be done, and there are practical limits. Especially in the early days of a technology it’s really hard to understand which limits are actual limits, practical limits or only short-term limits.

        For example, in the 1800s, people thought that going faster than 30km/h would pose permanent health risks and wouldn’t be practical at all. We now know that 30km/h isn’t fast at all, but we do know that 1300km/h is pretty much the hard speed limit for land travel and that 200-300km/h is the practical limit for land travel (above that it becomes so power-inefficient and so dangerous that there’s hardly a point).

        So when looking at the technology in an early state, it’s really hard to know what kind of limit you have hit.

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  • iAvicenna@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Imagine if he had to apply for funding

    “these waves have the potential to transform how we communicate and will likely find world wide usage”

    He would actually be right unlike all the other funding applications which are largely oversold.

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    • echodot@feddit.uk ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I mean it’s kind of bizarre that he couldn’t think of a practical application. We literally use invisible waves to communicate already, these ones move at light speed, how could that not be useful?

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  • fossilesque@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I LOVE SIGNAL PROCESSING

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    • ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Half of the field is viable thanks to a single algorithm: FFT

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      • Hugin@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        FFT was a DARPA project. It alone probably makes all their funding worth it.

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    • PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      ME TOO!

      I feel like the signal processing community is really passionate about their work. It comes out in their books. I know I can talk for hours and hours and hours about signal processing. And my DSP professor was like that too. That was such a fun class.

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      • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        i would like to hear about it :)

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    • Justas@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I had that during my second year of master’s. I barely understood it and the rest of the class couldn’t understand it at all. I wrote my exam and forgot 99% of it a week later.

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  • pastel_de_airfryer@lemmy.eco.br ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    And this is why science shouldn’t be beheld to the whims of politicians and capitalists

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  • manxu@piefed.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I mean, why would a guy that started a car rental company know anything about radio waves?

    Gotcha!

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    • WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I thought he was a baker. When I was a kid people would always be talking about “Hertz donuts”. Then they’d punch me. I never knew why.

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  • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Hilariously, light is an electromagnetic wave.

    So, yes, we can see electromagnetic waves… Just, only a very small segment of them.

    How wrong he was. Now we use EM daily for everything… Communicating via Wi-Fi, listening to music in the car (FM broadcast), or via Bluetooth and using LTE… Even heating our food. Not to mention medical applications like X-rays…

    There’s a shitload of stuff we use EM for without even thinking. It’s all around us, all the time, like the matrix. I love EM science.

    This goes to show you that, just because someone discovered a thing, doesn’t mean that they have any idea what to do with that discovery, or that the discoveries end there…

    Before, reality was just what humans could touch, smell, see, and hear, but after the publication of the charged electromagnetic spectrum, we now know that what we can touch, smell, see, and hear, is less than one-millionth.

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  • psx_crab@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Aperture Science! We do what we must because we can!

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  • bier@feddit.nl ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    If only he knew his discovery would lead to the worst car rental company he problem wouldn’t have published

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  • Naz@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    TIL: I’m just like Hertz

    Nothing, I guess

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  • Allemaniac@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    The germans are really something else, what innovation hasn’t sprung from their imagination?

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  • latenightnoir@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Did it Hertz when he realised the opposite, or did that happen after his time?

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  • burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Dr Venture type science

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  • barsoap@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You don’t understand that’s just Hanseatic understatement.

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  • Bronstein_Tardigrade@lemmygrad.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It’s why Michael Faraday will always be my fave; a blue collar genius. He designed, created, and built the equipment that eggheads used to test their hypothesis and mathematical equations.

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