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Gut health is important, but the serotonin and dopamine from there won’t ever cross the blood–brain barrier, so the effects of the gut on mental health (which are very real) are mediated through other things.
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Submitted 3 days ago by Valiscian@lemmy.world to youshouldknow@lemmy.world
Comments
Novocirab@feddit.org 3 days ago
viscacha@feddit.org 3 days ago
How do drugs work then? Many are structurally similar to serotonin and are pretty effective when ingested (psilocybin, LSD, …).
FLP22012005@lemmy.world 3 days ago
They, or products of these drugs, do cross the BBB, and stimulate the same (sub)receptors as serotonin or dopamine.
olafurp@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Endorphin doesn’t cross the barrier but morphine does, we basically find ways to sneak stuff into the brain.
olafurp@lemmy.world 3 days ago
YSK that this is just plain wrong for serotonin at least. Serotonin can’t cross the blood brain barrier.
peopleproblems@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Most of the neurotransmitters can’t. That’s like one of the things the blood brain barrier does - keeps the chemicals IN the brain as well.
olafurp@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Fun exception is endocannabinoids, giving you a runners high when running.
fizzle@quokk.au 3 days ago
Im not a neuroscientist nor endocrinologist but i dont think it’s as simple as, your gut producing serotonin which travels to your brain and makes you happy.
I just googled this and found a pretty direct rebuttal:
The gut-brain axis is a bidirectional communication network that links the enteric and central nervous systems. This network is not only anatomical, but it extends to include endocrine, humoral, metabolic, and immune routes of communication as well. The autonomic nervous system, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, and nerves within the gastrointestinal tract, all link the gut and the brain, allowing the brain to influence intestinal activities, including activity of functional immune effector cells; and the gut to influence mood, cognition, and mental health.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6469458/
As i said, I dont really know anything about this. However, there seems to be a large body of research supporting this hypothesis.
olafurp@lemmy.world 3 days ago
That’s true, the gut and the brain are tightly linked and are in constant communication with each other, an obvious example is hunger for example.
I felt the need to comment this because serotonin and dopamine produced in the gut have completely different functions from the dopamine and serotonin in the brain. On top of that the body keeps those completely separate with the blood brain barrier so it can regulate those different functions individually.
The gut does play a part in tryptophan production and extraction which passes the blood brain barrier and the brain uses to make serotonin so the gut does affect serotonin levels. But that’s just “eat healthy, feel good” type of stuff.
I’m just not a fan of oversimplified version of this where people say “90-95% of serotonin is made in the gut, serotonin is the feel good hormone so gut affects happiness”. I mean, most people are aware that what you eat affects your mood but saying the gut is responsible for producing the hormones for the brain is just wrong when talking about dopamine and serotonin.
macaw_dean_settle@lemmy.world 3 days ago
You should use a better search like Bing or duckduckgo. googol sucks and was never any good.
scarabic@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Is serotonin only effective within the brain?
olafurp@lemmy.world 3 days ago
It works both inside and outside, it just does something completely different when not in the brain.
yesman@lemmy.world 3 days ago
YSK the idea that the “self” or “consciousness” is centered in the brain is called Duality and it’s a philosophical position, not a scientific one. It’s the same idea that “mind” and “body” are separate things and it’s most common iteration is the idea of the “soul”.
You probably can’t upload yourself to a computer or be preserved in a frozen brain.
Windex007@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Not exactly related, but I think the typical conception of self being centered around the head at all is maybe just because that’s where our eyes and ears are. Curious how deaf and blind people conceptualize the physical location of thier consciousness
EncryptKeeper@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Wouldn’t the typical conception of self being centered around the head be due to the fact that that’s where all of our memories are stored, bodily signals are sent to instructions to the body are sent from, where emotions are processed, and cognition is generated?
ngdev@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
if i cut my arm off am i still me? how many pieces of me can i remove and still be me? at what point do i remove too much and am no longer myself?
probably the point where i die from removing too much lol but assuming im kept alive somehow for that
Windex007@lemmy.world 3 days ago
I mean, there was that one guy where the mob cut off his entire body
Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Our whole nervous system is a big neural network that extends through the entire body. There’s additional networks at each of our organs and muscle groups. They are already known to contribute to finer control of the organs, eg the brain doesn’t need to send signals to each individual heart muscle for each beat, the heart’s “brain” can handle that on its own. Reflexes and muscle memory can be handled more locally, too. Same with stress level, your liver might decide you’re irritable because of all the alcohol it needs to process.
But at the end of the day, it’s just a massive self-learning neural net that can encode other things. If you play a music instrument, maybe your finger neurons store more of the memory of how to play specific songs than you’d expect. So if you’re an expert piano player and lose your hands but replace them with prosthetics that can easily outperform normal hands, you might not be able to play the songs you could expertly do before. Hell, maybe even foot tapping along with a beat means that part of the experience in hearing or remembering some or all songs involves neurons in your legs.
You’d still feel like you, but parts would be missing. It’s not very well understood to what extent, but it does look like there is an extent, and not just for the gut “brain”.
Rhaedas@fedia.io 3 days ago
What's the philosophical term for thinking that "you" are not in the brain either, but rather riding along the electrochemical signals and formations throughout the brain, and this would include the rest of the body in the sense of feeling and control of it and its feedbacks (which is the point of OP). It's not really duality or a soul, as its dependent on both body and mind to be functioning correctly and intermingled.
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
So are you saying it’s literally impossible even with future technology to put a medically preserved brain in a new body and have that be a person that can do stuff and you could talk to, or just that it wouldn’t be the same person or consciousness somehow?
The former seems pretty out there as an idea. There are people whose brains are cut off from the rest of their nervous system and are still alive. The other connection the brain has to the body is the bloodstream, but blood transfusions are a thing and doesn’t kill you.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 days ago
i remember reading something back in the 90s that something like that had been done on a primate (maybe it was a head transplant and not a brain transplant), and it only survived a few days or something. given that, not a lot of people were that excited about the prospect of getting new bodies every few days. maybe i’m misremembering.
Amir@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
What do you mean it’s not a scientific one, you can put someone’s head on a machine keeping them alive and they would still be the same consciousness…
scarabic@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Never have so many unrelated points been made so quickly, incisively, and fruitlessly!
anon_8675309@lemmy.world 3 days ago
How do you make happy guts?
scarabic@lemmy.world 3 days ago
“Dietary fiber” is carbohydrates that you can’t digest for food but which your gut bacteria can live on happily. Take psyllium husk capsules or eat foods with lots of dietary fiber.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
You want healthy gut flora. So probably probiotic stuff like yogurt (though who knows how many of those bacteria actually make it through the gauntlet of stomach acids).
Antibiotics can do the opposite and really fuck up your guy flora.
exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
Yogurt is interesting because it’s already acidic, and dairy contains proteins, salts, and acids that buffer pH. So the microbes that thrive in that environment are already able to handle more acidic environments generally, and then might not experience as acidic of an environment in the human stomach compared to some other foods.
A lot of probiotic foods don’t actually have more microbes in them, but have certain microbes that tend to be found in human guts. I wonder if there’s some kind of filter effect where only certain types of microbes are more likely to survive the stomach, and therefore our guts tend to consist of microbes that are hardy against those conditions.
Kolanaki@pawb.social 3 days ago
Personally?
Dildo.
altphoto@lemmy.today 3 days ago
Wait…how about a probiotic condom or lube or both!
This way you and your partner can be happierest! I know I would try it if my partner wasn’t a psycho non sexual antimaniac. (Dull as fuck).
MarieMarion@literature.cafe 2 days ago
Two years ago I started fermenting veg
elbarto777@lemmy.world 2 days ago
In what sense has the difference been striking?
And how do you safely ferment vegetables?
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 days ago
toum
whoisearth@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
I just bought this for the first time last week. It’s now done. Toum is like a spiritual awakening
SlurpingPus@lemmy.world 3 days ago
If you can eat whatever you want, be glad. Once gut microbiome is damaged, it’s pretty much irreparable without fecal transplants (and even that sounds like it only helps the intestines, not the stomach).
That said, kefir helps a lot, but only short-term.
Nighed@feddit.uk 3 days ago
I’m not sure that’s true. How would it get there originally, other than through what you eat?
Obi@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
Wine, bread and cheese, personally.
Apytele@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Honestly your gut is more central to your existence than your brain. There’s plenty of organisms out there that are just a tube, and not all of them even have two ends!
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Well if you want to be more than a worm you really need the brain. There is a reason most of your senses are clustered in your head.
IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 2 days ago
we are just gastric tubes with appendages
curiousaur@reddthat.com 2 days ago
We’re Gundams.
Protoknuckles@lemmy.world 3 days ago
My wife had an overgrowth of candida bacteria in her stomach, and it caused irritability and exhaustion. When she starved it out, it was wild. If she had any sugars or yeast she would have almost stroke like symptoms. Like she had just drank a ton of alcohol that hit her all at once. She had 1 bite of ice cream (she had been good for months and wanted to try it), and she literally started slurring her words and getting dizzy. Our stomach colony has way more control over us than we think.
bassomitron@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Are you sure she’s not diabetic? My sister is Type 1, so she’s had diabetes her whole life. Whenever her blood sugar was out of whack, she’d become drunk-like and also have seizures in really bad instances.
Protoknuckles@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Yeah, they tested her for that. It took a long time to diagnose, but once this was found, everything else sorted itself out. Thus was also, like, 5 years ago? Now she’s fine due to a mix of killing off the candida through diet, and then her whole gut biome completely changing when she got pregnant. The human body is bizarre and wonderful, and way more complex than we understand.
Godric@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Oh yeah? I give my gut all the vodka and fast food it wants, and I’m still not happy! Checkmate, liberals!
avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 3 days ago
It’s the shots of liberal tears that bring the real gut happiness.
xep@discuss.online 3 days ago
In all seriousness, alcohol tends to kills bacteria so I would expect that it would make them sad. But we know so little about our gut microflora, either way.
Godric@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Ah, so screwdrivers for the Orange juice and more candy bars, gotcha!
D_C@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
Did you tip the vodka into the fast food? If not then that’s your issue!!
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Neurotransmitters in the gut cannot reach the brain due to the blood brain barrier (or very limited at best). Reuptake proteins and breakdown enzymes also prevent outside neurotransmitters from interfering. Your gut already produces large amounts of serotonin and it was first identified in the gut. 90% of the serotonin in the body is made in the lining of the stomach where it modulates smooth muscle contractions. About 50% of the dopamine is produced in the gut also.
However, microbes could affect gut behavior and that could effect mood simply by feeling poorly or well. There is also the matter of inflammatory responses and signaling (i.e. cytokines) that could affect one’s general sense of health. The small intestine is packed with immune cells that will also react to changes in the gut biome.
Finally there is the vagus nerve, a highway running from the gut, lungs and heart straight to the hindbrain, bypassing the spine.. More here. We are still learning about how much this ancient nerve controls and influences. I’ve even wondered if it is related to dementia and Parkinson’s because of its physical proximity to locations such as the substantia nigra (Parkinson’s) and areas that show the first signs of dementia, possible due to influences traveling up the nerve similar to the way rabies viruses travel.
pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
jfc
DEA is used in industrial, agricultural, and consumer products.
“We knew that micropollutants can be incorporated into fatty molecules in the body, but we didn’t know how this occurs or what happens next,” Clardy said. “DEA’s metabolism into an immune signal was completely unexpected.”
The team proposes that DEA could be added to the growing list of biomarkers used to detect some cases of major depressive disorder.
The study also strengthens arguments that major depressive disorder, or a subset of cases, could be considered an autoinflammatory or autoimmune disease and be successfully treated with immune modulator drugs, Clardy said.
xep@discuss.online 3 days ago
I was curious about what it’s in, so I looked up Wikipedia:
Diethanolamine is widely used in the preparation of diethanolamides and diethanolamine salts of long-chain fatty acids that are formulated into soaps and surfactants used in liquid laundry and dishwashing detergents, cosmetics, shampoos and hair conditioners.[5] In oil refineries, a DEA in water solution is commonly used to remove hydrogen sulfide from sour gas. It has an advantage over a similar amine, ethanolamine, in that a higher concentration may be used for the same corrosion potential. This allows refiners to scrub hydrogen sulfide at a lower circulating amine rate with less overall energy usage.
In things found at home it appears to be mainly soaps and cosmetics. These substances in particular:
Some of the most commonly used diethanolamides include:
- Cocamide DEA - DEA-Cetyl Phosphate - DEA Oleth-3 Phosphate - Lauramide DEA - Myristamide DEA - Oleamide DEA
pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Here is a more rounded out description. I think it’s from a company that sells a related product:
It is a high-production chemical commonly found in metalworking fluids, pesticides, antifreeze, pharmaceuticals, and various personal care products like lotions and shampoos. DEA is also used in the manufacturing of fatty acid derivatives such as cocamide DEA and lauramide DEA, which serve as emulsifiers and foaming agents.
PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 3 days ago
“Bacteria” is already plural
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 2 days ago
Are there efforts to genetically engineer superior gut biomes? Like a set of microbes that digest better, more efficient, filter out more toxins, produce vitamins, ignore too much carbs or fat, destroy harmful foreign bacteria or microbes etc?
It seems a relatively easy way to genetically improve homo sapiens. Can we do stuff like that already with the advances in AI for e.g. protein folding?
BanMe@lemmy.world 2 days ago
The gut biome isn’t well understood - there are tons (well, pounds) of bacteria we don’t understand well, how they interplay, how they eat and digest and how the body is affected. We’re just now at the point of having biome capsules that can be swallowed instead of fecal transplants, which is an improvement, but we don’t really know what we’re doing. They might take a family member and use their bacteria to treat someone’s GERD for instance - but only in studies and private labs, not at your doctor’s office yet. Now that they know how beneficial it is, they’re hauling ass (hehe) on it.
We only recently figured out that natural births do better than caesarians in terms of immunity and overall health, because well, women often defecate while they give birth and apparently that’s a good thing for the baby, as well as bacteria in her vagina. There’s sort of an instant bacterial infusion that happens.
Give it 20 years and there’ll probably be bespoke treatments available for the masses, so I won’t have to listen to my boss give his daily update on his IBS.
Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
You would think that we should have caught on sooner considering how there are plenty of mammals, like rabbits, that need to eat their moms poop to get the proper bacteria in their own guts in order to survive. Otherwise they simply die.
rumba@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
I went for a colonoscopy a couple of months ago. Ever since completing the prep, I’ve experienced a significant reduction in hunger. My appetite has always been horrid. I had to be starving constantly to lose any weight. Now, it’s not like i’m never hungry, but I can eat a portion of food and feel satiated. The scale shows me slowly dropping down toward a safe weight.
AlteredEgo@lemmy.ml 1 day ago
Interesting anecdote. Maybe that is the point of all those cleanses or fasting stuff, to sort of “reset” an out of balance gut biome.
IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 2 days ago
that would be in the field of synthetic biology. although genetically engineering ecoli up produce more serotonin might be harder than using artificial selection to make happy ecoli.
about being better at digesting or making proteins, same thing, except that they already have natural selection pushing then to suggest as efficiently as possible.
in fact if you made a super strain, it’ll eventually die out as it’s replaced with the natural ecoli (or lose those traits) because they are less optimised than your original ecoli
pdxfed@lemmy.world 3 days ago
That food heart was 100% created by a Zelda fan.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
Important to note: fast food and sweets are NOT what make your gut bacteria happy even if you think you are happier by eating them.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 days ago
what if my sweets are made out of probiotic yoghurts and garlics
jaredt@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
Click here to find out the ONE TRICK vampires hate!
ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 2 days ago
It is if your gut is filled with the gut bacteria that desire those foods and signal to the brain to give it more… the rest of you does suffer as a result though. These bacteria are not your friends, even if they make you eat chocolate.