With how shitty some Christians are, you really have to wonder if Lucifer or Satan is truly "evil"

Submitted ⁨⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Grimreaper@sopuli.xyz⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

When I was a teenager, I went to church, and almost every ‘Christian’ there was a complete asshole. What makes it worse is that they try to justify it. This honestly made me think that if God and Satan were real, I’d want to know Lucifer’s story. Maybe he’s not actually ‘evil.’

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halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Lucifer’s crime was daring to question his father.

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- ICCrawler@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  And then there’s the book of Job, the entirety of which is a story where God and Satan make a bet over a guy named Job. Satan says Job is only faithful because of the wealth God has granted him. God says Job is genuinely faithful, and tells Satan he can put Job to the test. So Satan has the entire guy’s family killed by bandits, he loses all his material possessions, and winds up plagued and homeless. Job mostly keeps his faith, yet he is persecuted by his friends (just verbally) who believe his sudden punishments are happening because he must have done something wrong and his faith must be false. Still, he holds out, mostly. Then, when he finally starts to actually crack, God shows up as a fucking whirlwind and goes on a long-ass ramble about how great he is, to which Job humbles himself. God’s response to this is to praise Job. He then chews out Job’s friends who persecuted him and demands they sacrifice 7 bulls and 7 rams and have Job pray for him because God is only gonna listen to Job, nevermind it was all a bet between God and Satan that led to this misunderstanding. Then Job is gifted twice what he had, 14000 sheep, 6000 camels, 1000 yoke of oxen, and 1000 female donkeys. A new family, with seven sons and three daughters, and of course the daughters are just the most beautiful daughters in the whole land. Then Job lived another 140 years.
  
  Something something reading the Bible is the greatest proof you can ever need that it’s bullocks.
  
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  - captainlezbian@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Children are fungible of course
    
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- Bgugi@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  If everybody you meet is an asshole…
  
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- ProbablyBaysean@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  No, I think his crime was that he wanted to take away the whole purpose of life aka living with choice between good and evil. Then the icing was that he wanted God’s glory to be given to him.
  
  My understanding of the purpose of life is that we have no memory of before, we are faced with plausible good and evil choices, and finally we get some hardware that lasts (physical body). There is some irony that the option for evil comes first from lucifer.
  
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- Pudutr0n@feddit.cl ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  If you have come to understand lucifer as good and god as bad aren’t you just… ermm… nvm.
  
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  - halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    I mean… God literally commits genocide multiple times, and that’s just from the stories that they chose to actually include. Satan/Lucifer mostly tempts people to do things they want to do anyway.
    
    Seems pretty cut and dry honestly.
    
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justsquigglez@leminal.space ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
As a man who works in retail, Lucifer was an employee who thought he deserved a raise, and maybe even take over as manager one day, but the current manager didn’t like that so he sent Lucy to burn at the customer service desk (hell) for eternity.

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- DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago
  Well, there’s also Lucifer’s questionable scheme to genocide and enslave all the customers, though that part is debated.
  
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mycodesucks@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Image

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- JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago
  You ever read the three little pigs, from the perspective of the wolf?
  
  The Bible is one side of a story.
  
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- captainlezbian@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago
  Cognito ergo Diablo
  
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Fandangalo@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I feel like many Christians in America are completely disconnected from actual values exposed by Jesus in the Bible. Republican (many of the Christians) policy is diametrically opposed to Matthew 25:31. No one quotes John 13:34 because they rather quote Old Testament BS about what’s an abomination. Why not focus on the love for others, including enemies? Why not focus on helping the poor, the sick, the homeless? Why not help the immigrant? The Bible specifically calls this out as a marker of getting into heaven.

Most of these people don’t even read the book. They like the sense of community at a church, but it feels like it’s formed into a total in:out group mentality. We can’t be a Christian nation as long as there are poor & people struggling.

Then the Utah governor says something like, “We can’t have people camping wherever they want.” my emphasis. Bud, they don’t WANT to be homeless. The lack of empathy is so apparent.

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- ordnance_qf_17_pounder@reddthat.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  I see those kinds of Christians as revisionist Christians. US evangelical Christianity is like it’s own religion that does not follow the teachings of the Bible or Christ. Their religion is guided by their political dogma, not the other way around.
  
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  - snooggums@piefed.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Yeah, totally different than Cathlocism which never did that kind of thing. Or any of the other sects of Christianity which never did that kind of thing.
    
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chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
My interpretation of Book of Job is God and Satan are in a toxic relationship where they egg each other on to fuck with people so you shouldn’t trust either of them.

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kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
You mean the god that prioritizes fealty and “love” for him alone over virtue, righteousness and good works? One who will give entrance to heaven to a life long sadistic, violent, and self-centered man who repents in his death bed, but will eternally condemn a man who has fed and clothed millions, who saved lives, who reformed bigots and criminals but questioned the existence of God or worshipped another. Compared to Satan, an angel that wished to overthrow this selfish god. Who values knowledge and choice in humanity. Who rewards ambition and creative joy. Who is stuck in hell with the rest of those condemned by the Almighty. I mean, is really no wonder many Christians are how they are.

If you haven’t, read Horns by Joe Hill (skip the movie, it’s not the same). It plays a lot with this dynamic. The protagonist isn’t a hero, isn’t “the good guy”, but has a righteous cause and when God fails him, the Devil steps up.

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Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I mean, Lucifer is an angel who questioned the system. We know that statistically, there is a chance he is right and everyone else is wrong. Based on my observations of humanity, the chance of the minority being right is higher.

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- TheFogan@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Honestly to me the whole concept of Lucifer as written in the bible to me, makes me question the whole thing.
  
  like 5 year old me was like “OK wait so how is this guy so stupid that he thinks that he went to battle against god, is he really stupid, everyone knows god is 100% perfectly all powerful”, then you think further and realize literally lucifer was supposedly like the closest angel to god, if anyone has a solid view on gods power, it’s him. Which honestly points to the idea that god… isn’t immortal, isn’t all powerful etc… he just uses that lie as a crux to prevent people from threatening him.
  
  Honestly the story of the tower of babel cements that even more. Now first of all if you’ve heard this story from christians… get rid of the pre-conception because usually preachers etc remove a lot of what is actually in the text, and add things that aren’t there. The story is not about stupid men trying to build a stairway to heaven.
  
  The story as written, in short, man was amazingly unified, world peace was achieved. They were building the tower as an enormous landmark so basically people could see their city from wherever they were, as well as just a testament to what they could accomplish when they worked together.
  
  God looks down at it and says "wow, look at these humans, when they work together, they can accomplish anything they set their mind to. They keep this up and they would be as powerful as gods. To which, god saw that as a credible threat, and so he smashed the tower, spread them all out, and made them speak different languages. Ensuring that they would be too busy fighting eachother rather then becoming a potential threat to him later.
  
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  - Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    "can be" vs. "should be". But yes, the god of the Torah is a jealous god. I mean, he flat-out says, "you shall have no other gods before me". Not, "no other gods exist", or "you can't respect other gods". Just, none before him. Which says that while he might be omniscient and omnipotent, he's not the only god who is so.
    
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Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Much like how the president is lying about Chicago and Portland being cringe filled dens of sin to keep people from finding out how cool of a city they are.

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- LMurch@thelemmy.club ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Portland seems so cool, based on all the live videos they have shared.
  
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fleebleneeble@reddthat.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Look into Gnosticism

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- Maeve@kbin.earth ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  I wish I'd started with the parent religion, but aspects of gnosticism and hermeticism actually prepared me to begin to understand it, lol. It's a new journey.
  
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reluctant_squidd@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I got really stoned one time as teenager and thought I had come to the very real and imminent discovery that Christianity is and was always the work of deep evil to silence and quell all other true religions. The crusades, the burning of the library at Alexandria, Pope John Paul III sitting on his throne of pure gold, It all made perfect sense. Don’t question it, just have faith.

I more or less fell headlong into atheism of a sort shortly thereafter, so part of me must really believe that on some level I guess?

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- Tracaine@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Seth Ian gnosticism. You beheld the demiurge and stopped short before seeing the light of the pleroma. You’re not wrong, but there’s a few more steps on the path yet.
  
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  - deacon@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    You’re getting downvoted but I believe you’re principally correct. Except it’s Sethian.
    
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PunnyName@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Satan was the good guy.

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DMCMNFIBFFF@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason

When we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest every thing that is cruel.

Examination of the Old Testament
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Pudutr0n@feddit.cl ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I hear that. Catholic school kid here.

Lucifer ain’t that bad on my book tbh.

It’s funny cause… when you’re a small kid it’s very common to want to be a good boy/girl/other. Many of us, at an early age, wanted the approval and validation from those that knew and understood how things worked (in our eyes), but most importantly, had power over us. Lots of us wanted to be seen as good by them. You know, like lots of people (the ones that actually try) want to be seen as good by god.

Lucifer is a symbolic representation of… well… whatever it is one associates to them. However, most people associate the satanic impulse to that of individuation, of blazing our own trails and rejecting the established (maybe divine?) order. You know, like teenagers. Teenagers basically want to understand how much of what they were told and warned of was not true and how much power they have to change the things they were told could not be changed.

When many of us become adults, we realize that the people telling us how things worked when we were small children were pretty clueless, and many of the things they taught us were mistaken, but it doesn’t matter if they were or they weren’t. What matters is some of those people looked after or cared about us and did the best they could with the hand they got dealt. And you know… passing that down is a nice thing. No one’s gonna send you to hell if you don’t, ofc. You’ll just feel better if you do.

And even if they go completely against everything we tried to convey at some point, that’s just how people learn and grow (or transcend what was previously thought possible) so it’s all part of the game.

Oh and yeah, Christians can be really shitty. Satanists can be shitty. The church can be shitty. Everyone and everything can feel really shitty at times. You know what isn’t shitty though? When you make things better for other people. idk about you but it makes me feel good.

And about lucifer? Following the image of him or any other representation of what we aspire to have or become is pretty much the same as following any other aspiration. Like… whatever a deity represents to you or even rational stuff like love of knowledge. If you dedicate yourself to its pursuit and worship it through your actions more than anything else, you will see it everywhere and it will become the most important thing… until it fails you in a time of deep existential crisis and then you’ll look for the next thing.

That’s just how it goes. Now please excuse me while I go to keep dedicating my worldly existence to the big Great Pudu in the Sky.

Have a good one. :)

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watson387@sopuli.xyz ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I will choose the path that’s clear.

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- kelpie_returns@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Such a lovely poem to that one, and it is perhaps more important now than ever before.
  
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Rhaedas@fedia.io ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Heinlein wrote about this very topic in "Job: A Comedy of Justice".

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- captainlezbian@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago
  Fuck I read that as a kid but didn’t realize it was Heinlein. Weirdly enough it was one of my very catholic father’s books
  
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Asidonhopo@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
You might be interested in Dr. Ammon Hillman, his doctorate is in classical philology and he has a masters in immunology as well, he’s been reading and translating Ancient Greek for 35 years, including a lot of neglected medical texts. He asserts that both the Old and New testaments of the Bible were originally written in Greek, within a couple hundred years of each other. He has a lot of praise for Satan and the figure’s apparent origins in Greek culture (Diana Lucifera and other mentions), and talks about Satan predating both Judaism and Christianity.

Hes also got plenty of scorn for Jesus, who according to his seemingly rigorous translation of the Greek bible was on a lot of drugs throughout his life and during his death, and was sexually exploiting and trafficking minors (the Apostles apparently ranged in age from 10-19)

He did some decent interviews on the Danny Jones show and on Hamilton Morris’s podcast, and Ammon hosts a live stream a couple times a week at Lady Babylon on youtube. The name of his channel comes from Medea, a “sorceress” from Scythia who became queen of Babylon at one point. She was Hecate’s daughter and sister to Circe from the Odyssey, and apparently was the first named person in history referred to as a “Christ”, a term that he has showed at length refers to the use of drugs in antiquity. We get the word “medicine” from Medea.

Pretty outlandish if you’re not familiar with him but despite his sometimes abrasive and eccentric presentation style I feel like the picture he paints of the ancient Greek world during the few centuries around the time of Jesus makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate that his channel is non-monetized and he doesnt accept donations for what he does sharing what he’s found in half a lifetime of studying Greek source texts.

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- Quexotic@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  10-19… I guess he’d really fit in with his followers.
  
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Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Have you ever read Paradise Lost?

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MourningDove@lemmy.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
“some”?

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Reality_Suit@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I like the approach of - there is no tue good or evil, but acts of nature. Life feeds on life.

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- ICCrawler@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  A head monk asks his disciples to describe a pitcher of water without calling it a pitcher of water. Some monks say what it isn’t. Some monks describe what it can do at length. One monk says nothing, instead, he simply kicks the pitcher over with his foot; he is declared the winner.
  
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- Maeve@kbin.earth ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  And on death and decay.
  
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