Submitted 1 day ago by kip5608@retrolemmy.com to games@lemmy.world
https://www.polygon.com/video-game-romances-need-to-grow-up/
Archived version: web.archive.org/…/video-game-romances-need-to-gro…
They make good points until this bullshit:
But if video games are ever going to be taken seriously as an artistic medium, they have to grow up, and that means learning how to love authentically.
No. That take is horseshit. They don’t have to do anything to be taken seriously as art. They already are. If you can’t see it because it doesn’t tick some of your boxes that’s a you issue.
Some games are art. Some are money grabs or outright scams.
And that’s true for any “artistic” medium as well
I would actually agree with him in some level. Art should always be evolving, and it should be looking past its comfort zones, even past areas many others have failed, to do so.
It doesn’t need to be a form of “disqualification” as he says, but there IS value in applying change even just for its own sake.
BG3 romances seem shallow and kind of transactional because it is a mix of characters who don’t know each other having a whirlwind romance in a relatively short period of time. They are easily comparable to the majority of romances in movies and books with similar circumstances.
The other thing that is always going to make romances in games difficult to do in more detail is a lack of real world senses that play a huge part in attraction. Smells, tone of voice, flirting based on what is cutrently happening are either impossible or extremely time consuming to implement in a computer game. Like you could luck into picking the right cologne for a character or something, but that is along the same lines as picking the right voice lines.
Not saying it is literally impossible to do, but it really is a monumental task to implement relationships that don’t seem forced or obviously mechanical in a video game. If they did implement one perfectly, the randomness of real life would make it nearly impossible to have a romance as there are so many things that can easily derail a relationship forming including just not being in the mood to reciprocate affection because of some completely unrelated event!
I think it also makes them feel more shallow because the characters are all “player-sexual” to use an industry term. Basically every character is into you if you want them to be.
I’d love to see more games have characters with preset likes and dislikes and how you’ve built and played your character will determine who will be interested (and who will shoot you down!)
The game already works this way I believe.
Some games in the past were like this but people complained because “I want the goth baddie but I am not an 80 year old man with a white beard names Santa Claus, this game’s romance system sucks.”
Part of me thinks the devs should just be more settled about having more relationships that don’t involve the player. You get 5 supporting characters, and character A, in their “relationship event” with you, admits that they have feelings for character C and want your advice because they don’t know how to express it.
Shallow and rushed, since it has to develop in a few dozen hours of gameplay with a limited number of NPCs!
There’s genres of games that are supposed to be relationship sims and nothing else. The relationships and characters are still hollow and would only draw in the loneliest people.
It’s kinda sorta not a game in many ways but dispatch did a decent job I thought.
This is a really weird way to argue a weird point. I think, the main issue is, most games are closer to boardgames than movies and the author places them too close to movies.
And you can build boardgames for romance, sure. But, unless the romance is part of the core game loop, it’s something that breaks the flow of the game. So it gets abstracted away, or the romance is expressed in terms of the core game mechanics. Which, in video games often are reaching the next scene, dialog trees or gaining stat points.
And, even if you think they’re closer to movies, then most video games are closest to action movies. And here the word romance isn’t used. It’s just renamed love interest and is often just the price for saving the world, but the core ‘mechanics’ are the same.
And most romances will start as fun flings full of hope, not with the nitty-gritty logistics. The logistics will come later, sure. But most Video-Games are set romantically in a few weeks of summer camp, so there is no need to figure out logistics, yet.
Open-World games, that have a character that travels around and meets people as part of their daily lives, sure.
But this argument would apply to games like the Elder Scrolls series. Not Cyberpunk 2077 in which the main character is dying and has only weeks left to live.
But, I do concede that most romances do fall flat once you’ve reached the top. You had your sex-scene and you may have your kisses, your hugs, the new greetings in dialogue, and the characters return to being cardboard in the background.
Romance isn’t the most logical thing, and a video game lives in a computer and kinda has to be logical.
So it’s either going to be some scripted events written by a human which the player doesn’t have control over, or it’ll be along the lines give item X to character Y, select dialog option B and now she loves you. The first doesn’t fit the medium and the second is a really terrible way to portray a relationship.
Maybe some LLM algorithms might portray romance better? But I don’t feel good about that. Don’t want to burn crazy amounts of electricity talking to a LLM character in a video game and the game would have to be online only, which means it cold be shut down at any time.
Even if we have the tech to have an LLM kind of algorithm that wouldn’t use too much power and could run locally, it would really suck if you couldn’t progress in a game because the LLM decided they don’t like you. So it would still be a side thing, and not important to the main story of a game.
Oh, I do think that romance is logical. After all its purpose is to ensure the survival of the genes. It’s just that the romance algorithms and the hardware they’re running on have been hotfixed for millions of years so there are insane amounts of technical debt, that make the algorithm hard to figure out.
And in romance movies there is always a pursuer and a pursued party. And, as audience, we can clearly identify the correct behavior for the pursuer. But, if you identify with the pursued party, then these romance movies will feel like it’s all chance, because the pursued often has very little agency.
A scoring system just formalizes this behaviour. And in video games, you as a main character have all the in-game agency. A romance, that would move the agency to an NPC will feel like the “OMG it’s you, the grand champion” guy from Oblivion, or like a courier desperately trying to talk to you no matter where you are.
And I generally don’t have an issue with local LLMs in video games, but I really don’t think there is a way to make them work. Dialog trees are a really good way to give a player some control, while not overwhelming them with choice. They might work best for allowing characters to acknowledge things you have done outside their own little storylines.
And, sure, I can type in my question. But this will be clunky and imo break the flow of the game. And I really don’t want to sit infront of a computer and be talking out loud to some NPCs.
I just ignore all romance in games because even at its best; it’s cringy and makes me feel weird and uncomfortable.
Nice, just like in real life
No. Because you see, and may not quite understand, real life is totally different than what is depicted in games. This is primarily because video games aren’t real, and therefore cannot reciprocate affection.
On the other hand, romance in the real world is life affirming. It is among the most beautiful things human beings are capable of. It is a gift and one I have been able to share with my partner for over 18 years.
You should try it.
Romances are stupid shallow fluff that serve no purpose except to draw in lonely people. They’re idiotic and predatory.
Guilty as charged
and horny! sometimes its not enough that they are naked!
For me, romances are just so they can carry shit that I find.
Pack mule romance. Love it.
One of my favorite video game romances takes place in the Legend of Heroes: Trails series. When first described on paper in a quick summary, it’s something some people might roll their eyes at, but it’s built very well.
Something that had to be nailed down early about it was, it really couldn’t be optional, based on “relationship score”, or even happen on its own time. One of the best scenes in this duology centers around a huge character reveal, which puts forward the confession of love all at the same time; while that relationship had been a slow tease through individual scenes, it suddenly became a huge, very important part of this large conflict.
I definitely think for better relationships in games, we need a lot more focus on characters, and we need to stop viewing the relationships as rewards; sadly I don’t have many further ideas than railroaded stories, but I think there’s probably more options out there.
Trails in The Sky are so good. The franchise lost me mid-Cold Steel, unfortunately it became something else and I wasn’t the target audience.
You mean a dense protagonist harem anime?
You listen to Shadowheart’s story in Baldur’s Gate 3 and, since you pass no judgment, fall in love.
Not that different than a lot of the relationships I had when I was young to be honest.
There is of course more to it, but this is was actually a key factor in my own marriage lol
“I’m horny and they’re hot” leads to a lot of shallow “understanding” of someone’s shitty behavior.
We need videogame romances where you are both so enanored every answer is stupid and cringe but to them it’s the most romantic thing ever. Also the sex is silly and awkward and kinda gross, but they both have fun laugh and enjoy it.
Gamers aren’t ready for that level of realism.
Dialog wheel: “You are cuter!”
“No! You are cute” -----> “You are the cutest!”
"You are my cutie pie!"
Party rolls a D20 to avoid dying of cringe
There comes a point where it is too real, and when the loading screen comes up and you see yourself in the reflection of the screen, that’s going to create a really negative experience for a lot of people, not just gamers.
Which is why everyone should just play on anti-glare screens! They aren’t reflective enough for that to happen!
I heard about a very silly, cartoony game that applies this as a basis: Buster Jam. The two leads are in a relationship, but it doesn’t affect their lazy heroic dynamic in any way. Funny to have a villain remark “…you and your GIRLFRIEND…” and not get corrected.
May I recommend Haven then
Haven Gonna check it out!
This brings me to an interesting question, only briefly touched upon in the article (and with too few examples): which is the best video game romance so far?
I liked Haven’s romance, because it’s the only game that actually bothers to have two protagonists already in love, and the entire story is their marriage life.
Too many games show romance as a slow burn which eventually culminates in a kiss at the very end of the game (and then roll credits), or a checklist that eventually ends with the two characters mimicking sexual intercourse within the boundaries of video game physics, and then… Nothing, because the sex scene is the “reward” for going through the checklist, not the beginning of an actual relationship.
Haven begins when the two characters are already in love. They flee to some deserted planet and live their happy life. They joke, they play, they have sex, they argue and talk and annoy each other. It’s one of the most convincing relationships I’ve seen in a video game.
My wife and I played Haven back before we got married, and never got around to finishing it. Really ought to dust that game off again. Playing it as a couple was really fun, and actually helped us to learn things about each other.
If you don’t mind sharing, what are the differences in how sex is portrayed in this game vs how you don’t like it?
Huh, had no idea that game existed but that does look pretty different from what we usually see.
I’d probably argue games that ‘can’ do this well is JRPGs because they tend to be a slow burn and have a lot of small side conversations that are not directly plot related, which allows the characters and relationships to get fleshed out.
The ones that immediately come to mind are FF 8/9/10 but I’m certain there are others.
In games where the romance is like a mechanic and not a part of the story? Hmm that’s a tougher question because I think mechanics/gameification tend to ruin the human part of relationship building.
You know what’s wild? The answer that immediately comes to mind is Warframe.
Genuinely, I’m not remotely joking, Warframe has some of the best video games romance I’ve ever encountered.
Two things really stand out to me about the conversations in Warframe.
First, the things they learn about you are often just as important as the things you learn about them. The article talks about the process of two people figuring out how they fit into each other’s lives, and that’s exactly what you get with Warframe. You need to actually show that you can be someone they can love, as well as simply showing interest in them.
Secondly, and I think maybe more importantly; most of the conversations in Warframe don’t feel “important.” They all are. But most of them are about comparatively trivial things. A lot of it is literally just people sharing shower thoughts, or jokes, or talking about dumb shit, or getting things off their brains.
Also, the way the characters interact feels distinct and different. Amir, the most obvious case of ADHD in the universe, writes five messages for every one of yours (these conversations all happen through “Not MSN Messenger”), and most of the time what he needs is for you to just listen while he unloads all the chaotic shit in his brain. Eleanor, the journalist, writes long, carefully formed sentences with correct punctuation and grammar. She poses questions, prods and pries, tries to dig secrets out of you. Aoi will sometimes just send you a string of emojis, and will be delighted if you reply the same way. She likes to be silly, but more importantly she needs to just know that you’re there and you cared enough to reply. It’s the written equivalent of squeezing someone’s hand. Some characters will pester you, others are more likely to wait for you to talk first. There’s a unique dynamic with each of them.
Ngl, it’s not my kind of game but this sounds very cute and exactly how a healthy relationship should work.
DayZ. The warming embrace of the games player base envelops you like a warm blanket.
I agree with the other comment about Haven, but I’ll also plug in Potionomics. It’s more gamified in terms of giving gifts to the chosen NPC you wanna court, but the voice lines and the way the love interest acts feels fairly natural in my opinion. And nothing ends after kissing, it just becomes deeper.
Buuuut that’s just, like, my opinion, man.
Ellie and Dina in The Last of Us 2 maybe?
Not sure if this qualifies, but I found the (past) relationship between Kratos and Faye in the new God of War games really touching.
As every generation ends up saying, romance is dead.
Jax@sh.itjust.works 43 minutes ago
I think that romance in video games is… well it’s just like romance in any other medium. It exists to paint a picture in your head of what love looks like, because that’s something they can sell to you.
If you want a game with natural feeling, organic romance then that’s going to be the game. Full stop, simply having a cast of 10 characters already makes this very complicated.