Submitted 4 months ago by cyrano@lemmy.dbzer0.com to technology@lemmy.world
For drivers, the results are unpredictable and too often unfair. Data obtained by the Star shows Uber Eats’ platform can offer two food couriers different wages for the exact same trip.
Labour advocates charge that the app collects data on driver behaviour and can use it to decide who it can pay at a lower rate, allowing the company to pocket the difference and boost its revenue. This concept is widely referred to as algorithmic wage discrimination.
Wild
Par for the course based on Uber’s history. I stopped using them in lieu of a local/community app…which is honestly absolute garbage, but it is essentially completely pass-through and free for my local area restaurants to use.
I maintain that it would be realtively simple to create an open source version of an app/protocol like this that serves people’s needs for this exact use case, and if it were designed for any community to use, it could be essentially free as you say and high quality, and be a single point of service for everyone.
If this were done right it could put all these thin platforms out of business and allow delivery drivers to establish fair terms for themselves.
This would be a really good fit for federation I think.
It shouldn’t be a massive surprise. The whole platform exists as a way to circumvent minimum wage laws for drivers while taking a massive slice of restaurant profits.
No hygiene inspections either, half the places listed aren’t even restaurants or takeaways, it’s just in somebody’s house…
Wage discrimination sounds like a fancy way of saying wage theft.
Yep, it’s just when they only do wage theft on the most disadvantaged employees that are the least likely to sue them or quit as a result.
Time to change your name from Patel to Smith
I’ve never delivered for Uber Eats specifically, but I don’t know how they managed less than $2 an hour without doing obviously impractical things like trying to deliver at off hours, or in a poor area for it. I average about $27/hour. This is however, with GrubHub that has a wait list for drivers and they deliberately don’t overcrowd regions. Area really has a lot to do with it. I can imagine that if Uber doesn’t cap the amount of drivers in an area, a full on city is probably the worst example of a place to try it. I know that DoorDash is the same way in Atlanta, and the few times I have tried there, it wasn’t worth the trip. One thing you learn very fast through observations is that the “hot zones” mentioned in the article don’t matter. All they mean is that someone ordered from a place there before the map refreshed.
I guess my point here, is that the pay isn’t necessarily shit. You have to put in some leg work and learn the best areas around you as well as the times to work.
I do have a lot to say about doing this line of work with over 1k deliveries done across 3 apps, but it is kind of out of the scope of this comment unless someone asks.
27 an hour after expenses?
Considering that the average pay for doordash workers are usually between 15 to 20 an hour, I’m guessing that 27 an hour is before taking out for expenses.
27 an hour becomes 22.8/h after taxes (assuming you are in a state with no state income tax) minus whatever paid for fuel expenses, and that’s before you take into consideration the wear and tear on the vehicle and unless you are flying under the radar(bad idea they’ll refuse your claim or even drop you) the increase Insurance costs for using the vehicle commercially
I will definitely be interested to hear about your experience.
This was in Toronto, and to call the ebike courier job market here “oversaturated” would be an understatement.
See my edit.
I edited my comment to include a lot.
What a sad country, where people have to accept being paid so little.
I’ve been arguing for decades that EU needs to tax US imports, because USA is using social dumping to compete unfairly.
The US minimum wage is not a living wage, and employers can even go below that if they can claim tips are part of the wage.
Did you even read the article? This is not about or in the USA.
Had a colleague that did it as a side gig and no matter how many times I told him to do it, he always refused to do the calculation to figure out how much he was making after expenses.
Living in denial is the only reason we aren’t already eating the rich.
That and fear of imprisonment
I was going to do it as a side hustle, but then I found out that I would have to change the type of car insurance I have, and my rate would go up. If I didn’t and had an accident while delivering, my insurance company would 100% deny all claims - assuming they found out I guess. I want willing to risk it , and the higher premium cost made it unprofitable.
Honestly, I’m surprised insurance companies don’t actively pursue this. Like doing a side gig such as this would very easily increase the possibility of claims because you’re on the road, so financially speaking it would make sense for them to try to partner through those delivery apps or Research into whether someone is doing it professionally on the side.
Then again I guess it is more financially Justified for them to just milk your insurance money up until the point that you get into an accident and then deny your claim there for being a gig worker
externalizing costs. vehicle maintenance, insurance, wages… it’s all a ruse to get anyone else to pay their overheads without realizing it.
The awful part is, even without tipping the driver the food is drastically more expensive. The restaurant takes an extra cut, The delivery service takes an extra cut. This person’s delivering your food practically for free and the meal is already sit down restaurant price.
Just one note, restaurant prices go up because uber eats charges a percentage based fee for each menu item. So, restaurants need to up the prices on the app just to make the same amount of money. Just some good ol’ under-the-table fuckery courtesy of Silicon Valley bastards.
In any case, when it cost me $20 more to get the meal through delivery, and f**** over a delivery person I’ve got a lot more incentive to drive 10 minutes to pick up food.
My wife and I ran the numbers and, in our area, Uber Eats was pulling in about 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of the meal between charges to the restaurant and the customer. We were discussing opening a non-profit delivery service in our area. Turns out it’s pretty hard to do.
Oh yeah, they’re going to want to see some serious reason why you shouldn’t be paying tax.
It’s a lot easier to start an SCorp or an LLC in the US. Starting the corporation’s not horribly expensive either
Since you’re not selling the product, you probably just need to pay the tax on The money they pay you to do the pickup. You need to start it more like a postmates where they ask you to go pick up the order they placed at some shop. But then I suspect you would have timing issues if you have a limited staff. You couldn’t just place the order and then wait a unlimited amount of time for it to show up.
Then there’s that daunting problem of when the store screws up the order. Because they always screw up the order.
But you’re still going to have to deal with labor laws, You’re going to need bonding, a CPA, advertising, presumably a web presence and software maybe across platform cell phone app. These are all things that get easier as the company gets bigger but are rather daunting it small scale.
I guess it’s kind of a tough business to break into. Owning my own car, I could place an order, drive to McDonald’s pick up the food and come back for pennies. Obviously that 30 minutes is my time but it’s time I would spend not making money else wise. Because I’m already spending a couple hundred a month on a car, it’s not worth very much for me to pay someone to bring me food. But at a livable wage, plus someone else’s maintenance, that’s probably $7 to $10, assuming there’s a limited number of orders they can pick up at once in a small area.
I hear the smallest violin Everytime I hear about UberEATS executive complain about the company not being profitable.
I know GrubHub is bad too but I typically only pay a small fee of 3$ for their service and a tip of 20% to the driver.
Yet UberEATS usually includes a $10-15 UberEATS fee which the employee sees none of. Yet “oh no UberEATS is not profitable, oh no my 3rd yacht isn’t being enough”
I only use eats if there’s a solid promo, and then I pick up the food myself. They don’t get the fee, I don’t have to tip, and I get the deal. A lot of time the price per item is cheaper on pickup too. Their fees are absolutely ridiculous, and they are just a middleman. They for sure are losing money on me.
Best to just call it in. Even for pick up, all these online providers take a huge cut, eating the profit margin from the people actually making the food you like.
I try to only use online orders for restaurants that have their own website cart. I do sometimes resort to the big ones when I’m busy / lazy, but I make a point to try to make sure the actual restaurant gets my money, because I want them to survive and keep making me tasty food.
Tipping culture caused this mess, meritocracy bullshit
Uber eats is such a scam. When these new VC companies come on the block offering things that are to good to be true I am constantly saying “we shouldn’t support this unsustainable vc funded business, once they have market share they will have killed the competition and then they will raise their prices”
So many places used to deliver at reasonable prices but after years of uber delivering at way cheaper rates they stopped. Now uber delivers at $10 more.
Yeah I liked the idea of Uber at first because taxis have been shitty for a long time and Uber was shaking up that industry.
But then I learned that Uber wasn’t making money and immediately realized that they were just looking better than taxis for as long as they needed to to drive them out of business so they can be even worse, while providing even less than taxis companies do. At least taxi companies have a relationship with their drivers while Uber was just a platform for connecting anonymous riders with almost as anonymous drivers and handling the financial aspect of it (so that they control it all as middlemen with control of the wallet).
So now I just use taxi services when I need a ride (while cursing the state of mass transit in North America and GM plus corrupt politicians for their role in making this like this).
Similar story with hotels/airbnb, though they’ve made it even worse because they are affecting the housing market itself rather than just the luxury service of staying somewhere while away from home.
Many reports of landlords evicting their tenants so they could turn their homes into airbnbs… Disgusting
Which means it’s financially viable to compete with them again using their own drivers. Uber just trained an entire sector on delivery driving which is a larger pool of labour places can now draw from. And you can start by talking in person to the drivers who conveniently come directly to your business every day.
No because after uber cornered the market uber raised the bar for what kind of fuckery is acceptable. Takeaway shops would do normal prices plus a $10 delivery fee. Now they can double their prices and have contractless uber drivers manage all their deliveries.
Food delivery only made sense as an operating cost of the business, so third party delivery would have only made sense as something that the businesses subsidized. It also only makes sense if it is structured around the busy times of day as well.
I worked in a few businesses in the late 90s that offered delivery. In every case the delivery drivers were basically kitchen staff who went on deliveries OR the business itself was primarily delivery based in the first place and they still had the drivers do some other work around the place during downtime between meals. Both approaches spread the cost of the employees over more than the literal time delivering, because otherwise the cost per hour would be ridiculous. They also delivered food that held up to delivery times, so the food waiting 10-15 minutes before being delivered wasn’t an issue.
There was a reason that pizza places and Chinese restaurants frequently had delivery even in smaller towns while things like McDonald’s did not. The food held up to delivery and was frequently of a volume that made the restaurant subsidizing the cost of delivery feasible.
Well this is a more or less solved problem in BC:
I think the trick is you’ll never make it just driving for one service, you have to do Uber Eats, DoorDash, Grubhub, maybe even Instacart as well if you want to do it for a living.
Just like the people who drive for both Uber and Lyft.
We don’t have to use that service. Who’s with me?
I’ve never used the third party delivery apps because it was clear their business model was going to screw over the deivers from the beginning.
And be very expensive for the customer at the same time. Food is expensive enough already without adding more fees and overhead.
I use it, I just tip way more than anyone else in my area tips. Mostly out of guilt, partially out of solidarity for the working person.
I feel like it’s a double-edged sword.
For as long as there are people willing to tip more, the company can get away spending less and shifting it onto customers.
As a result, workers get highly unpredictable and generaly low income and customers feel guilty for leaving low tips. Everybody but the company loses.
This just makes your house a target for robbery because the criminals who deliver on the side will think you have lots of money
Well, I’m definitely not using any delivery service - we live ~25 mins drive from the nearest town, so it’s just not an option.
I’ve lived most of my life in the countryside and just think that getting someone else to go get my food is a weird concept anyway… I’d go as far as saying that I’m no-one special, so why ask someone else to get my food - just get it myself (lazy, etc.)
Plus, I like driving, so I’m happy to get out of the house for a while (and drive like a delivery driver to get the food home whilst it’s still hot)
I will never use uber so long as I shall live.
I think the problem is: what they call a “Tip” is more like a “Bid”/“Offer”. People see “Tip” and thus believe its optional, I mean it technically is optional, but the base pay is like $2.50 so its customarily required. I think for even the shortest delivery of a place 10 minutes away with a 2 mile distance is supposed to tip at least $5. and if the delivery is done in 30 minutes, that’s an effective wage of $15/hour, that is, if they get orders back-to-back.
Customers don’t understand how this works and puts $0 as the “Tip”, buts its really a “Bid”, effectively making anyone who is willing to accept the order, to work below minimum wage. And also new drivers doesn’t understand how this works and acceepts orders without a good enough “Bid”, effectively working below minimum wage.
I mean, why even call it a “Tip” if its customarily required, just change the base pay to $7.50. So for an order that takes 30 minutes, its an effective wage of $15/house, assuming they get orders back-to-back. Much less confusion amongst both customers and drivers.
Americans be crazy. I never tipped in my life and ain’t about to start.
“Let me help subsidise a company paying below minimum wage” totally normal not batshit insane idea.
I think for even the shortest delivery of a place 10 minutes away with a 2 mile distance is supposed to tip at least $5. and if the delivery is done in 30 minutes, that’s an effective wage of $15/hour, that is, if they get orders back-to-back.
Since these shitty companies don’t provide vehicles or gas money most of that $15 is going to vehicle costs.
When I delivered for a pizza place in the late 90s in a midwest college town with my own car I got 15-20 per hour between base pay, gas and car use subsidy, and tips. That business was 90% deliveries, so the delivery was baked into the cost.
“Minimum wage and the idea that hard work should lead to economic security, can be — and are being — destroyed by these A.I. systems.”
Not A.I, just a terrible system that incentivises (and even demands for public companies) abusive behaviour.
Yep, blaming it on A.I. is just an easy way for corporates to shift the blame to something they can’t control. A.I. is just a tool, the people using it and HOW they use it are responsible for the outcome.
I was just commenting on a thread about public transportation (there’s none where live) and someone commented that they’re moving to micro transportation by just buying a $3 Uber every time they need to go somewhere. Even if uber is only taking $1 of that, $2 isn’t paying someone to drive you somewhere. Uber drivers should make at least $30/hr.
I haven’t done the math but if you don’t drive that much, did it beat their yearly costs (maintenance/insurance/gas)? Honestly that scheme is wild but makes total sense for a customer because not having to deal with car maintenance and insurance seems like a good tradeoff. I wonder when the dominos are all gonna tumble for these driving companies
I don’t know where the person who commented that lives, but you can’t get an Uber five blocks for under $10 around here. If I was that close and walkable I’d just walk. I do know uber is losing drivers locally though because they don’t pay enough, certainly not enough for people to maintain their cars. It’s predatory employment at this point, and it is becoming normalized.
Where can you take a $3 Uber? If I took an Uber to my next door neighbor’s house it would be more than $3.
That’s what I was saying too. Maybe somewhere with much lower wages and cost of living.
So how many lemmy users are going to stop using food delivery to avoid being complicit? Especially asking if you refused to vote for Kamala Harris because of Gaza - or you can rant about how it’s “not the same thing” lol.
How much did the CEO of Uber, Dara Khosrowshahi, earn last year?
This must be that innovation which is making the world a better place that these tech parasites keep gushing about.
Buddy, I cant use that service in any good concience…
I feel like you gotta go out of your way to make so little money doing this. If they actually did it correctly there would be no article to write. Not saying they would get rich but there’s no way they did this honestly.
Working for uber eats is a a choice.
Many of the food couriers I worked alongside were young international students struggling to earn an income while they make their way through school. Others were refugees or undocumented workers, navigating precarious lives.
I honestly wonder if pretty much all of the surge in illegal immigration over the last 5 or 6 years comes down to Uber Eats.
$1 is already too much for what those monkeys do
mynamesnotrick@lemmy.zip 4 months ago
I just can’t use uber eats. It just feels weird. Like, I am fully capable of getting food myself, I know uber eats, doordash etc, pays shit, delivery folks have to wait at the restaurant if its not ready and then fix it if its not. Get my drink from the fountain if I ordered one. And then, drive all the way to my place. I then receive a cold, tossed meal. It’s just depressing all around. I don’t get it.
I’ll pay for delivery of pizza or even something like jimmy johns who have delivery drivers, but having a third party involved just feels wrong.
AbidanYre@lemmy.world 4 months ago
It’s also freaking expensive. When I used it occasionally at my last job we’d get reimbursed up to $20. I usually just got the $12 combo and by the time all the fees were added, I still ended up paying $2-3 out of pocket.
WindyRebel@lemmy.world 4 months ago
This is how I felt too. Eventually I just stopped using our corporate Grubhub “perk” because I was still paying for it when the entire idea was supposed to be a meal “on the company” once a week for weekly All-Hands meetings.
phoneymouse@lemmy.world 4 months ago
Also, they handle multiple orders. So, by the time you get your food it’s lukewarm at best, but likely cold and soggy.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 4 months ago
Yeah the cold and soggy is my main criticism. At that point I’d rather cook
fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 4 months ago
Even pizza shops with their own drivers. I’d usually prefer to go get it myself so it’s as fresh as possible.
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 4 months ago
I don’t share any moral delima with the concept of third party delivery. Conceptually what’s different than the branded delivery drivers? Both by the way rely more on tips than anything else for payout to the delivery person, but at least the base pay rate for the branded driver is typically a tiny bit higher. I am bothered by the ratio of what I pay extra for third party services as compared to what the delivery person receives. You can’t possibly just drive the price up further to fill the gap, the gap is massive and the prices are already a limiting factor for most to utilize these services. I also relate to the cold tossed meal. There is no effort in training these gig workers or supplying them with proper equipment to deliver the food. It often arrives in a terrible state and there is very little in the way of quality control. If I were a restaurant I would hesitate to let these people represent my food.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 4 months ago
So, a lot of conceptual and practical differences. I don’t order from doordash etc, but I will sometimes order delivery from dominoes or something where they have their own delivery drivers.
TheFriar@lemm.ee 4 months ago
The solution already existed. It’s called restaurants delivering their own food. But Ubereats shoehorned their way into the equation to be an unnecessary middleman in order to profit.
I absolutely share the moral dilemma with the concept of third party delivery. They’re just as useless as health insurance companies, so if you see the problem with the latter, you can def see the problem with the former. (Not to say they’re on the same scale or have similar histories or have equal amounts of blood on their hands, just that they’re similar in structure in a system that work(s)/(ed) fine without them.)
Pickle_Jr@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 months ago
The worst are the places that say they have delivery, take you through the whole checkout process on their own site, and then sends you a link to track your order on door dash or something.
LOOKING AT YOU LITTLE CESARS
dirthawker0@lemmy.world 4 months ago
During the pandemic I can see why these services blossomed, but I have only used them once or twice - and only in NYC where I didn’t have a car, and even if I did, getting around by car and parking is more challenging anyway. (Delivery drivers in NYC get around by scooter which they drive anywhere they want (street, sidewalk, wrong way on the street, they do not care. They’d probably get on the elevator if they could).
To me the service charges and tips are higher than I want to pay and I’ll just pick up the stuff myself. It’ll probably be hotter anyway since there aren’t other deliveries that need to be made before mine. The one exception is pizza where they already have their own delivery people.
scarabic@lemmy.world 4 months ago
Asian food has been doing to-go for centuries, though. It packs well and keeps well for 30 minutes. In fact there is a to-go only Thai place near me which uses an industrial kitchen and literally a hole in the side of the building to take payments and hand over food. Other restaurants we know in our area stopped seating people during COVID and would just hand out to-go orders at the door. But I can only think of Asian restaurants that did this.
There’s nothing wrong necessarily with having a separate delivery service. Restaurants aren’t good at making menu apps or driving cars. It may be a little awkward fit for restaurants who rent retail space and offer dine-in tables, but the world is transitioning and I fully expect more Doordash-first restaurants operating out of less expensive kitchen space and just skipping the whole dine-in waiter thing.
I hate to hear that Doordash pays so poorly but we always tip 20% or more which, even if it is the only payment the driver receives, usually seems fair for 30 minutes of work. We are a family of four and our order is always over $50. So that’s $10 / 30 minutes or $20 / hour minimum (if everyone used it the way we do). That seems like an okay wage for a job with so much flexibility. Probably the real thing that kills it is gas and wear on the car being invisible costs. Just like with regular Uber drivers.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 4 months ago
Maybe it’s what I eat but I find the food is always worse after delivery. It’s usually gotten a bit cold and steamed a bit. Some stuff like pizza and Asian food handles it well, but falafel and anything fried is best served immediately