Oxford study proves heat pumps triumph over fossil fuels in the cold

Comments

• marsokod@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  The Oxford study is really good. But I can’t say the same about this article.

  A COP of ~2 is not great for a heat pump, calling this a triumph is really weird. But from a journalist saying that a COP above 1 means the heat pump “creates energy”, I am not sure I should have expected more.

  But what’s great is that this COP of 2, while bad, is not catastrophic. That’s still in territory where gas boiler are more cost efficient that a heat pump, but unless you are living in a place that is consistently under -10C for several months, then a heat pump has lower running costs than a gas boiler. And you are starting to hit pretty northern territories with this.

  What’s important is also to be able to store heat during the day so that the heat pump runs at its most efficient time. But that can unfortunately coincide with the higher consumption time, so the timing needs to be adjusted properly to avoid using it during consumption peaks.

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  • CountVon@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    a journalist saying that a COP above 1 means the heat pump “creates energy” In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

    But what’s great is that this COP of 2, while bad, is not catastrophic. That’s still in territory where gas boilers are more cost efficient that a heat pump, but unless you are living in a place that is consistently under -10C for several months, then a heat pump has overall lower running costs than a gas boiler. And you are starting to hit pretty northern territories with this.

    I actually have a hybrid furnace/heat pump system, and I live in southern Ontario, Canada. The furnace is the auxiliary heat source and it only kicks in when the outdoor temp is below -6C. I’ve only had this system through one winter so far, but I think I could count the number of days the furnace ran without running out of fingers. My electricity bill went up some of course, but my winter gas bill went down a lot.

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    • CoolMatt@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I’m a 4th year AC/R mechanic born and raise in Southern Ontario, currently in BC.

      You mebtioned your hydro was up but gas was down. Out of curiosity, can you tell me how your total cost of heating changed before/after your first winter with your heatpump? Did you end up saving money?

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    • ikidd@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Was there are brand/seer rating restriction with the GHGrant? I just applied and will be going this route, but I don’t want to be paying $15000 for a specific brand or something if I can get similiar equipment that might not be on a list.

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  • p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Even the study could have used some better clarification on geothermal HVACs, which is the direction we should all be heading towards:

    Ground-source heat pumps typically provide a very high level of efficiency, even during cold weather. The reason is that soil temperature does not change significantly between seasons, resulting in a higher—and more constan—COP. In addition, ground-source heat pumps do not need to expend energy on defrosting.

    This commentary focuses on the performance of air-source heat pumps in mild European winters with average January temperatures above −10°C. We refer to these heating conditions as “mild cold climates”, whereas those with average temperatures below −10°C in the coldest month are designated “extreme cold climates”.

    No, why?! Gimme the COP on geothermal. Google tells me it’s 3 to 5, but I would have liked a better source.

    Regardless, while I understand that we should spread out our solutions, I don’t understand why we’re not talking more about geothermal HVAC systems. Household solar is all the rage, but my gas company is still charging me $25 a month just to have the gas on, never mind the winter costs.

    If we’re talking about $5K a hole to dig for geothermal, that seems like a hell of a lot more cost-effective solution than either gas-based HVACs, or these air-based heat pumps. If it’s an area with only mild winters, you probably only need the one hole, which will last for 100 years at least. At most, we’re talking about 3-4 holes for a large house in Canada, and that’s going to pay for itself in 10-15 years.

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    • alvvayson@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Geothermal has advantages, but air source is getting so good that it’s really becoming a niche.

      Spending $5K on insulation or heat recovery ventilation will be more effective than spending it on a hole.

      I saw an awesome home refurbishment in Montreal, they just went all-in on insulation. The heating was just done with a 500W resistive heating coil, just for the coldest days. They didn’t even have a heat pump, except for the heat pump boiler. The heat recovery ventilation did the rest.

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  • tony@lemmy.hoyle.me.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    That’s still in territory where gas boilers are more cost efficient that a heat pump… a heat pump has overall lower running costs than a gas boiler

    You just contradicted yourself… what did you mean here?

    Electricity is 3x the cost of gas, so unless the heat pump has the COP of 3 or above it is more expensive to run. Once you factor in the high cost of installation people aren’t installing these things to save money.

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    • marsokod@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      It’s not a contradiction if you put my whole sentence. When it is really cold, a heat pump will be more expensive than a gas boiler. But over a full winter (hence “overall”), the period where it is more efficient make up for it, especially since that when it is bad, it is not that bad.

      But you are right to mention the high cost of heat pumps. I would not advise anyone to get a heat pump with a goal of saving money, the return on investment is slow and rather small.

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• DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  They’re only two to three times more efficient if they aren’t frozen solid. Don’t know how it works in Canada, but my mini-split heat pump can’t handle a week of 10F let alone -20 C - sure it will put out some heat, but it absolutely needs to be supplemented with my wood stove. And I live in the South. Maybe there’s some new high tech heat pumps that cost a fortune and don’t freeze over in the insane temps of the great white north?

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  • alvvayson@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Your mini-split isn’t designed to function to serve as a heat pump at low temperature.

    In places like Sweden, they also use heatpumps that are designed for those conditions.

    In other news, don’t drive in a Swedish winter with summer tires.

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Excellent. Now I know that there are different classes of heat pump. Mine is not for prolonged crazy-low temps, others are. Thank you.

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    • Zink@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I have never seen so many winter tires, and studded winter tires, as I did on my trip to Sweden last winter.

      I think they are mandatory there.

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  • TooManyGames@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    My air heat pump has been ticking away happy for 15 years with no issues. It’s worked fine warming up the house when it’s -20°C in the winter and cooled nicely in the up to +30°C in the summer.

    I do supplement it using electric heating and a fireplace though.

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Thank you for responding and sharing your counter-experience. Greatly appreciated. What keeps your unit from icing over? Are they designed differently in northern climates?

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  • aircooledJenkins@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Yes, there are cold weather heat pumps that can thaw the coils to keep operating. There is a point where they just can’t continue to operate.

    When I design a heat pump system in cold climates, I always include a secondary hear source that kicks in if the heat pump gets overwhelmed. Might be a gas section in a furnace. Might be an electric heater in a fan coil. Might be electric baseboards or wall heaters.

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  • GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    You used two temp scales in the same sentence

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      [deleted]

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  • SoggyBread@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Theres different technology but there are some that can function to -32° F and they often have a feature that allows them to detect when theyre frozen up and defrost and then automatically switch back to heating

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Mine has a defrost cycle but it doesn’t work very well. But then again, it’s use case is primarily AC - it only gets frigid temps in my area every couple years.

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    • Windex007@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Many parts of Canada will regularly see colder than -40F, so I can sympathize easily with a view that solely relying on them might not be safe in that environment.

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  • lobut@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Oh I have no idea, I just got to this thread and see you’re at -6.

    It’s weird because I thought it was an informative post. Made me want to look more into it and if it was just a subsection of heat pumps that was affected.

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I think because I left open the possibility that there’s any utility at all to fossil fuel usage, they’re treating me like a whacko that’s hoarding incandescent light bulbs because I believe LED light bulbs are distributed computing nodes for mind control space lasers or something. I’m not - I was reacting to the article based on my experience with a mini-split heat pump that can’t handle a week of 15F weather without freezing into an iceberg, even with a defrost cycle.

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  • Bronzie@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Mind me asking what yours cost?

    Just got a Toshiba unit installed in Norway and it was $3500.
    Built in de froster.

    Price might be what makes yours strugle in colder temps.

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Mine has Toshiba guts. I don’t know what I paid for it - now it appears to be selling for $1100. Mine defrosts but its defrost cycle just turns on AC for a bit instead of heat.

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    • tony@lemmy.hoyle.me.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Hell that’s cheap.

      Cheapest quote I ever had was £15k, not including all the improvements to insulation required before the house is compatible…

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  • Lifecoach5000@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Man they pitchfork mob came out in full force for this one. I also live in the south and during the freeze of 2021 it was a struggle for it to deal with those low temps.

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    • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      That’s precisely the freeze that led me to experience the inability of my Senville mini-split heat pump to keep up. So glad I had a wood stove. Even then, my shower drain trap froze solid. I was living in a semi-insulated yurt at the time.

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  • bamboo@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Yes, most installations do require a backup heat source in the event outside temperature is too low for optimal heat pump usage. On my ecobee thermostat, you can set what this temperature threshold is (i.e. 20F) and then if the outside temperature falls below this value, the heat pump is stopped and the natural gas in my case kicks in. Granted, this doesn’t happen often where I live, but for those few weeks in the winter, it is not something I even have to think about. And the rest of the time, I am saving money using the heat pump and not natural gas.

    I doubt there can ever be high tech heat pumps which can operate at -25 C or less, because there’s so little heat energy outside and the heat pump would probably spend a majority of the time running in reverse to dethaw the unit to prevent it freezing over.

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    • orclev@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I doubt there can ever be high tech heat pumps which can operate at -25 C or less, because there’s so little heat energy outside and the heat pump would probably spend a majority of the time running in reverse to dethaw the unit to prevent it freezing over.

      It could probably be done, but then it wouldn’t operate at higher temperatures. Realistically you’d probably need two heat pumps, a low temperature pump and a high temperature pump and switch between them as the temperature rises or falls. It’s double the cost and double the points of failure, and for a situation that rarely happens probably not worth it.

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  • ahal@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    There absolutely have been new heat pumps hitting the market in the past year or two that are blowing away the previous generation.

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• NatakuNox@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Heat pumps are A/C in reverse. It makes total sense instead of using fire to heat air.

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  • QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    brb putting in my window unit from the outside

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    • __dev@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      You’d need to collect the condensate, but that would actually work quite well.

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    • Gordon@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      You think you are being a smartass but that’s exactly what heat pumps do. The only functionality difference between an AC unit and a heat pump is a reversing valve.

      But without a reversing valve you could put your AC unit in backwards and heat your house in the winter.

      The whole premise of an AC unit is to take the heat from inside the house and put it outside, leaving you with cooler air inside.

      So in the winter a heat pump simply reverses the flow of the freon and moves the heat from outside to inside. Yes. You are “cooling the whole neighborhood” when you run a heat pump.

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• Leviathan@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  WELL FUCKING OBVI-

  Oh right, I forgot some people are really pulling for this fossil fuel think to pull through.

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• psycho_driver@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  A/C guy who’s the son of an A/C guy here. Heat pumps lose efficiency the colder it gets. I wouldn’t bother with one if you’re in a northern climate. Lower midwest, you might be able to save money with a heat pump over natural gas, but it will depend heavily on the cost of the respective energy. For me, in the central US, we have great prices on gas and somewhat crappy prices on electricity (vs most surrounding regions) and it’s definitely cheaper for me to stick with gas heat.

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  • atempuser23@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    So this is exactly what the article is about and up to -4 f heat pumps are more efficient.

    If your the son of an hvac guy maybe your information is based on older installed units. I had a heat pump installed in my fathers home in the northeast ( non coastal) and I was shocked it ran well all year. I had heard the some rumor that you had.

    Technology advanced and facts change.

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  • yata@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Your information is outdated. It is even clearly mentioned in the one-sentence summary in the OP:

    Oxford study proves heat pumps triumph over fossil fuels in the cold::Published Monday in the scientific journal Joule, the research found that heat pumps are two to three times more efficient than their oil and gas counterparts, specifically in temperatures ranging from 10 C to -20 C.

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    • BirdyBoogleBop@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      That doesn’t say anything about gas prices.

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  • QuarterSwede@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    This is the correct take for a conventional heat pump. However, there are relatively new geothermal heat pumps that can heat down to -30°C (-22°F) and are much more efficient.

    www.cbc.ca/news/science/heat-pump-faq-1.6824634

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    • lud@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Geothermal heat pumps are amazing and are the cheapest and most efficient way to heat homes in Sweden.

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  • joshhsoj1902@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Thankfully heatpunlsbhave gotten better since your father’s day. And natural gas is only going to keep getting more expensive. For a price of equipment that will last you 15-25 years it’s becoming harder to justify gas heating.

    For new builds ground source heat pumps should become more standard, they cost more, but they’ll save a lot in the long run.

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  • Mr_Dr_Oink@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    But its all irrelevant because the most effective way to keep warm is to continue with global warming. Soon we wont have a cold season to worry about. 😜

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    • TWeaK@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I know you’re joking but the reality is we’ll probably get worse cold weather alongside the warmer weather - the weather will be more extreme at either end.

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    • JuliusSeizure@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Continue? You can’t stop it even if you wanted to, unless you pervert the natural climate cycles somehow. We are exiting a cold period and it has nothing whatsoever to do with using gas or come farts.

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  • Pipoca@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    If you’re on propane, it’s more likely to be cheaper.

    But yeah, this study wasn’t looking at cost per therm but just raw COP, which is a pointless metric. It doesn’t even compare the number of watts of heat from burning natural gas in a furnace vs in a modern power plant that supplies a heat pump. Although since we don’t have a carbon tax, that’s only a theoretically interesting comparison.

    Heat pumps work fine for most people in the north. Mitsubishi’s cold climate heat pumps supply 85% of their rated heat at -13F. Buffalo is a city known for its winters, and the last time Buffalo’s lowest temperature was below that was 1982. They’re just going to be a more expensive option for most people.

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  • Honytawk@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Well, some people don’t put money higher than the ability of humanity to survive.

    So the cost is less relevant than the pollution.

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  • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    If you posted that earlier today you would have gotten a spanking for saying anything critical about heat pumps. Or people just don’t like me in particular. Hard to tell.

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    • Honytawk@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Maybe your information was just not factual?

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  • CoriolisSTORM88@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Ditto. At least with gas I’m not paying Alabama Power’s rates.

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  • plantedworld@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    My father in law went to a heat pump instead of propane this year. No natural gas where he lives.

    But he also dropped 20k on a solar system to power it.

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    • Acters@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      How long would the return on cost savings take for it to pay itself off?

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• usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Maybe someone can help me answer this question as I’ll be replacing my old furnace in the near future and am curious about the heat pump systems.

  Studies like this are only looking at efficiency and not total energy usage or heating capacity so how do you compare apples to apples? A high efficiency forced-air furnace using natural gas is something like 95% efficient, and a heat pump can be something like 150%-200% (because you’re moving the heat instead of creating it), but the total output capacity matters as well as the efficiency of generating and transmitting the electricity. Also, I don’t think the power needed to run the fans gets factored in from what I can tell and I expect a heat pump system to need fans running far more often and for longer. Since heat is constantly being lost to outside then whichever can work faster might have an advantage keeping ahead of that entropy too…

  I’m living in a climate considered “extreme cold” in this study btw. Best I’ve been able to figure out, a gas furnace is still much cheaper to install/operate (it’s pretty cheap here) but is also still be better for the environment as my electricity tends to be generated primarily from natural gas and coal (at an efficiency lower than a natural gas furnace does).

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  • alvvayson@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Under the conditions you describe, a hybrid setup will work best.

    In a hybrid setup, the heat pump is providing most heat when it isn’t very cold, while the traditional heat source is providing heat on really cold days.

    A few years ago, the temperature where the system would switch was 5 C. Nowadays it’s more like -10 C. As heat pumps get better, hybrid loses territory, so you could also just wait a few years and then switch.

    Hybrid gives best of both worlds at the cost of added complexity.

    If you have A/C then the cheap way to do hybrid is to keep the traditional heating system but use the A/C in heating mode on mild days.

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  • luk3th3dud3@feddit.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    If you are comparing gas to heat pump efficiency it is more like 85-90% vs 350-500% efficiency.

    Because in the gas furnace efficiency they only calculate the efficiency of burning gas but muss to include the auxiliary electricity that is needed to run the system.

    In a heat pump system everything (running fans etc.) is included in the efficiency calculation. The efficiency itself is depending on the source of the heat pump. In a really harsh climate a ground / geo thermal source might make sense. But usually the average temperature is higher than you might think.

    And for the environmental effect: modern gas power plants run at 50-60% efficiency so with a heat pump you are always burning less gas even if the gas plant is less efficient then the gas furnace.

    It would be interesting to know what extrem cold means.

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    • usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      That’s a good point about the furnace fan!

      This commentary focuses on the performance of air-source heat pumps in mild European winters with average January temperatures above −10°C. We refer to these heating conditions as “mild cold climates”, whereas those with average temperatures below −10°C in the coldest month are designated “extreme cold climates”.

      I’m using what the study calls extreme cold, which would account for about 3 months of the heating season where I live, and that’s where I got the lower efficiency numbers from too as they state the COP is around 2.75 (roughly 3 months of the year here) in the “mild cold” and only around 2 at best in the colder months.

      We have a bit of an unusual climate here with fewer people so most of the info I find tends to focus on where more people live and the climate is different so it’s tough to figure out. There’s a good three months where no heating is required at all (and increasingly, ac units are in demand). A couple of years ago we had close to an 85°C temperature swing from the end of February to mid June!

      Natural gas is plentiful and cheap so it’s used for central heat and hot water here, sometimes clothing dryers too but that’s less common. I still end up paying a gas bill in the summer months essentially just for admin fees and such, so the temptation is to go fully electric (would have to change the HWH) with a heat pump system and resistive backup heat. The problem is from what I can tell, the additional cost isn’t quite worth it yet (the system might not even save any money and is more expensive to install/maintain), and the emissions difference is tough to calculate when a third of the power comes from coal and over half from natural gas…

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  • Im14abeer@midwest.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    For sure look into any subsidies available to you and see if they make a dual fuel system feasible. In your situation if you buy a high efficiency furnace, it may never make economic sense to run the heat pump, but things could always change and it’s a simple enough task to find your break even (economic balance) point when fuel prices change. My current break even point is well beyond the temperature you would consider running heat, but I still run my heat pump in the shoulder seasons to exercise it.

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• vector_zero@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  That’s great, but fossil fuels are often available in the event of a power outage, and that can save lives during a winter storm. Availability is just as important as efficiency, and until we can make our power grid more resilient, we need to factor that in.

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  • hellothere@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    The vast majority of gas boilers use electronics to function. In a powercut they are also dead.

    Now if you’re talking diesel generator back ups, then far enough.

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    • Rocketpoweredgorilla@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      If you have a generator, you can easily run the heat pump off of them as well.

      I live in Canada where it’s commonly -30c or colder in the winter. heat pumps work fine around here and quite a few places have them, from houses to factories. The only problem is the initial set up costs, because the plumbing has to get buried below the frost line (6-8 feet down). After that it’s smooth sailing for the most part.

      Even in power outages, heated floors can retain their heat for much longer than conventional means, sometimes up to a day or two.

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    • coffeebiscuit@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Even gas stoves won’t work when the power is down, for the same reason.

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    • ThePantser@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      There are tons of non electronic gas heaters. I have one in my basement just for power outages so we can stay alive in the winter if we don’t have power. But I do think for majority of heating and cooling I would love to rip out my central furnace and replace with heat pumps but the cost is too great ATM. I have two heat pumps now, one in my garage and one in my top floor where the furnace could never reach.

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    • carl_dungeon@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I have propane heat- a small generator will power the fans while the propane provides the actual heat. The generator wouldn’t be able to handle a whole heat pump though. I do lose power a lot and lost it for 4 days straight last Jan. This situation isn’t without merit.

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    • bamboo@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      If it’s just control systems though, they may be able to run off of a UPS for a day or so.

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  • NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    We’re also going to run out of oil in the next 40-45 years, so we should factor that in.

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  • DarthBueller@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    I wonder who the fuck is downvoting these comments. LOL - “NO FOSSIL FUELS, YOU MUST DIE IN A POWER OUTAGE!”

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    • Incandemon@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Maybe its not because of assholes? Maybe its because the comment is objectively wrong?

      Neither my gas water heater, or gas furnace work during a power outage. As another commenter said they both have electronic controls.

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  • Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    If you live in an area where power outages are common enough that you need a backup generator: Sure. but also learn how to properly install that (an improperly installed backup generator can injure or kill the utility workers trying to fix an outage) and how to safely operate it (carbon monoxide, yo). Although, there are also arguments for solar power and the associated battery storage in those cases. Similarly, vehicle to load which turns a car into a battery in the event of isolated blackouts.

    But if there is a power outage, the grid is already not “resilient”. So…

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• pHr34kY@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  create energy

  Ummm… that’s not how it works.

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• DennisMFaucher@infosec.pub ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Here in Massachusetts, the belief is that heat pumps do not heat well when the temperatures reach 0F

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• SillyNakedIce@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Not in January in Central New Hampshire.

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