Teams’ invasive Wi‑Fi tracking sparks backlash as users say Microsoft crossed a line — “There must be a team at Microsoft tasked with making Teams worse”

Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨throws_lemy@reddthat.com⁩ to ⁨technology@lemmy.world⁩

https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/microsoft-teams/microsoft-teams-new-wi-fi-tracking-tool-feels-way-too-invasive-and-people-are-right-to-be-uneasy-there-must-be-a-team-at-microsoft-tasked-with-making-teams-worse

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twjolson@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Only one team working to make Teams worse???

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- justsomeguy@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  They have achieved higher productivity by not using teams themselves.
  
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  - TheTechnician27@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You’ve got it reversed. Switching to Teams greatly hastened development, as the team’s newfound vitriol and frustration could be channeled toward the end user in a neverending feedback loop.
    
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  - ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Literally! They were told to return to office to achieve higher productivity (it was circling the news around September?)
    
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- Dave@lemmy.nz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Just one team working on Teams, and they are doing their best to make it worse.
  
  I for one encourage them, it apparently needs to be even worse before my work will consider changing
  
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- RiceMunk@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  They’re asking Copilot for help, so have achieved 10x productivity.
  
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- darkmogool@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  yaeh… team Microsoft…
  
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lasta@piefed.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is what I gathered on the subject, feel free to correct if anything is wrong:

The WiFi tracking works by scanning for nearby WiFi networks, identifying which routers are nearby and their signal strengths, matching those against their database of known WiFi access points, and using that data to estimate your location.

For now the feature will be off by default, first has to be enabled by your company, and then the user has to opt in for it to be used.

For those who are required to use Microsoft products, it can by bypassed by using a wired Ethernet connection and not using Teams on any devices using a wireless connection.

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- nullPointer@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  same go for the web browser based teams, or is this just the “app”?
  
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  - FooBarrington@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The browser version shouldn’t be able to access this info.
    
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- lividweasel@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  That doesn’t at all match the documentation.
  
  The organization will configure a list of Wi-Fi SSIDs. When your device connects to one of those, the Teams location would be updated to “in the office”.
  
  That’s it. No complex triangulation, no pinpoint locating. Just “are you connected to the office network or not”.
  
  Also, if you don’t want to be tracked in this way, just don’t participate. If your organization sets a policy to opt you in automatically, click the option to opt out. If they give the offer to opt in, just don’t.
  
  I know it’s hip to hate on Microsoft, but we should at least discuss things based on the truth, not wild assumptions and misinformation.
  
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  - lasta@piefed.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Thanks for the clarification. I wrongly assumed Microsoft was using Wi-Fi positioning systems (which is used for geolocation, just not in this particular case) instead of reading their documentation.
    
    I’ll update the comment.
    
    I also don’t think most workplaces are going to punish you for opting out of this feature even if organizational policy requires it to be enabled.
    
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- blackbeans@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  So basically the same every Android phone does. Google had done this kind of tracking since 2007
  
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  - Rooster326@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes but now it reports to your employer.
    
    I don’t see the uproar for this.
    
    The issue is your employees trying to force RTO. Whether this goes through or is cancelled - your employer will still want to track your RTO.
    
    The only solution, if you are privileged enough, is to work somewhere else.
    
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  - foggenbooty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Windows itself already does this type of tracking to determine your time zone.
    
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- InFerNo@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Please add _nomap to the end of your SSID (the name of your wifi network) if you don’t want Google to use it in their tracking mechanisms.
  
  Please add _optout anywhere in your SSID if you don’t want Microsoft to use it in their tracking mechanisms.
  
  If your SSID is Network change it to Network_optout_nomap
  
  Ridiculous as fuck, but that’s what they came up with. I have no idea what other services use to block their Wifi collectors, but these 2 are very prominent anyway.
  
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- redsand@infosec.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I look forward to this feature being deployed in hospitals. It’s going to fail so hard and generate so many tickets.
  
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  - Rooster326@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Why?
    
    Is it important that their team’s location be up to date?
    
    Surely a hospital has better methods for tracking independently of teams
    
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lumettaria@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

“Tenant admins will decide whether to enable it and require end-users to opt-in.”

If you require someone to opt-in, they’re no longer “opting in”

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- WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  But you clicked the terms and conditions popup, so you are our slave now.
  
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BigTurkeyLove@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
So glad I only use Teams in a browser, fuck this bullshit.

Don’t install Teams.

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- webghost0101@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Teams comes pre installed with windows these days.
  
  I recommend KDE Plasma on any linux distribution that comes with it for people interested in recovering their digital sovereignty.
  
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  - QuandaleDingle@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    If people moved to Linux and used FOSS software, these privacy violations wouldn’t even be a problem.
    
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  - Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    There is a difference betwen the version for corporate (MS365 Business) and the consumer version.
    
    Yes, they have the same name.
    Yes, it’s confusing.
    
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- Anafabula@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You can’t even install it on Linux, they killed the native app years ago and now tell you to use the browser version
  
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  - Squizzy@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    And then every link asks if you want to open in app, three extra clicks but worth it
    
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  - zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The Linux client never worked in my experience anyway. In no coincidence, their Teams in browser never seemed to work in Linux either until a little after they killed the native app. I wonder if there were enough important clients that needed support for it and they caved and made it work.
    
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- artyom@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I don’t install anything that’s not FOSS anymore. Pretty much all of it is spyware at this point, because they can monetize it, and because users don’t give a fuck.
  
  Good news is, most of the time, you don’t have to.
  
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- pHr34kY@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’m glad my work PC only operates in flight mode.
  
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Prove_your_argument@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I swear people do not understand the point of what microsoft does.

There isn’t a team tasked with making teams worse. They’re tasked with extracting all possible value out of their product. Part of that value is infromation like where you are, what you’re doing, what you’re talking about, what you search for, what you actually do for your job, who is around you, what they talk about, where they are, what they are doing, what they search for, and what they do for their job and how everyone spends their money.

All of this is incredibly valuable data to governments, businesses and private individuals that want to advertise, suppress dissenting political voices, enhance useful dissenting political voices, and otherwise manipulate global influence.

They just don’t want you to think about declining any permissions, triggering regulatory action, or switching to another platform.

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- badgermurphy@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  That’s true. Their mission is not explicitly to make it worse, but to continually maximize value at all costs. Eventually, software usability has to be one of the costs.
  
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  - enumerator4829@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    ”Eventually”
    
    As if Teams was ever a usable product.
    
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  - ToTheGraveMyLove@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Same thing with extra steps.
    
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- Prove_your_argument@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The various news sites out there that want to spread their own version of influence and generate their own revenue take this kind of information and use it to see how you click on things, what drives your engagement, what you will go on to share with others, and how you talk about all of it. It’s all tied together.
  
  Big money interests run basically everything in this world. We are just cattle, we will always be just cattle. I’m in countless databases like all of you, and we’re all fucked by the system we think we might some day to cheat our way above the other rats. The noose is tied tight though… there’s not much room left to struggle. It’s too late to escape it. Palantir and Flock are here to close the loop and they aren’t going anywhere, even if the street cameras are likely to be hidden in the future and more tamper proof rather than obvious to the public. Doesn’t matter if the laws change to ban it or you can convince local government to not get involved with it - it’s way too easy to hide cameras with modern technology. Just give it time and your credit score and auto insurance will incorporate flock data ;)
  
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  - ivanafterall@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Insurance is already pushing in-car monitoring for discounts.
    
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- NewNewAugustEast@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Which is what LinkedIn is for by the way.
  
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  - SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I thought LinkedIn was for 50 year old middle managers to post their opinions on the evils of socialism.
    
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HugeNerd@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
God damn it, at work they pay us to put that stuff on our personal phones… maybe I’ve been a bit too lenient on that, maybe I should get a work phone.

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- Enekk@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Never, ever, cross the personal/work barrier. I have seen so much abuse when those lines cross.
  
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  - BanMe@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I agree, but some places there’s simply no option. I have a state job, they will under no circumstances provide a phone, but you must have Authenticator. If you won’t or can’t use a smartphone, you simply don’t have a job.
    
    State jobs are interesting. 3/4 the pay of a regular job, but job security like none other, and you barely have to do anything. I spend most of my time doing my moonlighting job to supplement my income.
    
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  - bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    What if its on your phone work account? That’s totally sandboxed
    
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Evotech@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is illegal in Norway :)

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- flying_sheep@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  And Germany.
  
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thatsnothowyoudoit@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I worked on a large(ish) contract (tens of millions) with one of Microsoft’s engineering teams where they were implementing an Azure managed version of software we produced. I would regularly refuse to install teams at the meetings, using teams in-browser only.

It also ensured that the technical project manager had to be the one to transcribe anything in our notes into whatever tools Microsoft was using.

While it was never said, the Microsoft engineers seemed to completely understand and never pushed back against my refusal to a) install crapware and b) not take on work that wasn’t mine.

Not using teams: win win.

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- Sabata11792@ani.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  I would regularly refuse to install teams at the meetings, using teams in-browser only. I tried to do this for a safety meeting, Teams is also broken in browsers. I’m not sure if intentional or incompetence.
  
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  - bluesheep@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    How about intentional incompetence
    
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  - zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Teams in browser is the only way that I use it either, and it isn’t “broken” like it used to be, but you need to use a Chromium based browser. This is typical Microsoft bullshit with only truly supporting “their”, luckily they don’t actually make an actual browser anymore so you can use any of the better Chromium browsers.
    
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LedgeDrop@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Having Teams remind you that, during session recordings, your video and what you say can be used by Microsoft for what purpose they want, including (but not limited to) training AI.

This wasn’t the line that was crossed? Seeing/hearing your likeness in the next generated AI / copilot commercial, because you needed to consent in order to work. This is “fine” /s

… but having Microsoft know that you’re answering Teams messages while on the toilet… yeah, that’s where “the line gets crossed” (eyeroll)

We need to wake-up and drop this technological cancer.

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- tourist@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  “It’s okay, because it’s Microsoft” is management’s response when I raise a concern at work.
  
  Heaven forbid you use an open source tool that isn’t on the software whitelist yet
  
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  - WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    “It’s okay, because it’s Microsoft”
    
    "You mean the mass surveillance corporation now under the control of the nazis?
    
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TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Microsoft: Our product is not our software. It’s you!

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- generic_computers@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’m their software?
  
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  - jaennaet@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    No no, you’re the wetware
    
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Fokeu@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
They’ve crossed the line a long long time ago. All microslop products are straight up unusable.

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jj4211@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The users aren’t the customers. The customers are the users’ bosses.

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- Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  And or some random dude in procurement.
  
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Zink@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
My employer has the usual setup of M365 enterprise shit running on Dell laptops.

Fortunately we devs are able to “dual boot” to run Linux on our machines, since our product is an embedded Linux system. (has anybody seen my Windows partition btw? I can’t even find anything NTFS formatted, whoopsie!)

All that background info is just so I can pay Microsoft a compliment, even if it has asterisks all over it:

The entire Microsoft suite works just fine in a browser, and in LibreWolf too! I do typically add some permissions for those sites for convenience, since librewolf is privacy/tracking hardened (firefox fork) out of the box. I use Teams and Outlook every day, and occasionally will drop a file into OneDrive or edit something in MS Office. I don’t write many office-format documents though, so I’m more likely to be in LibreOffice or a PDF viewer just reading a doc.

You know how in media streaming and gaming there’s that balance of whether it is more convenient to be a paying customer versus pirate everything?

Microsoft’s stuff is literally better to use in Linux. Even if I need to test the Windows build of something, a VM is SO much more convenient. And I’m not even logged into the microsoft shit on that. If I need something from OneDrive, I go to the browser there too.

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xenomor@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Honestly, I would screen potential employers by whether they are a Microsoft shop or not. Fuck ‘em.

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- cole@lemdro.id ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  nice to have that sort of freedom, since the majority of companies use some Microsoft products
  
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- acosmichippo@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  i thought the same, but now working at a place using google/slack isn’t much better.
  
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  - dubyakay@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Literally zero problems with slack and goog (at corpo). Security opted out of AI shit and that was it.
    
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- artyom@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  That’s a luxury that not everyone enjoys.
  
  They all use some form of spyware, if only for email.
  
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deltaspawn0040@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
They are called stakeholders.

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Ghostie@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I wonder if the team that is tasked with making teams worse has team meetings with the whole team on teams.

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- toynbee@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yesterday I read on here that Microsoft doesn’t let their teams use Teams.
  
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TimeNaan@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Of course there is, this guy leads it

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MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Teams can be worse?

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- dansel@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You’re doubting Microsoft’s ability to make a product worse?
  
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  - MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    No, experience shows they are capable of the impossible if it comes to making things worse.
    
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Solrac@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
And is why we don’t use Microsoft products.

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devolution@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Probably the same pick me they put in charge of Xbox.

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jaybone@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
There have been teams at Microsoft making everything worse since 1998. Why is this news?

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artyom@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Employees arent the ones paying for Teams, so why would they care? Teams could openly market itself as remote work surveillance for employers and they’d gobble that shit up.

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Brkdncr@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
So many other apps do this already, including the OS. This is changing your Teams status for you, so coworkers can see if you’re in the office or not.

If your hybrid wfh office has any sort of reservation system then this is likely already happening.

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masta_chief@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I was gonna use teams for a few groups of people, but fuck this noise. What are the best alternatives? Something like slack or discord but those have their issues too

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- WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Try Stoat, or Matrix.
  
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- HereIAm@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There are tons of alternatives. As for how good they are I have no idea. It feels like every other day a new discord alternative is highlighted here. But as of now I don’t believe there’s any drop in replacement for discord/teams, but that is not to say you shouldn’t seek out something that is good enough.
  
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  - aphonefriend@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The closest drop in replacement for discord is fluxxer, when his servers aren’t being overwhelmed that is.
    
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mesamunefire@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Microslop

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hefty4871@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Before Teams when Evilcorp was using Skype for business the app would update our location within the building.

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Sprocketfree@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This feel like 1 office shooting away from a huge settlement…

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4shtonButcher@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is their promo video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Upf_B9RLQ

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sturmblast@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
To be fair, this is barely a feature. If you are on WIFI anyone that really cares knows where you are already

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- explodicle@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Exactly. I already don’t use the work wifi because they don’t need to know how much I use Lemmy while at work.
  
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  - WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    you could use a VPN though. protonvpn has measures to work around network restrictions, or set up a wireguard at home, and if they would block it, tell them you need it for work. your own notes related to the trade and your task planning tool stored on your homeserver, or something like that
    
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Retail4068@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Corporations have done this for decades. Literally.

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