No stupid questions time: This kind of lurks in the back of my mind and I sometimes find myself hesitating to use the term “female” to refer to female figures in any context. I don’t have to do that, right? Like, would “woman lawyer” be better than “female lawyer” in contexts where specifying gender might be relevant? I would conversely prefer the term “male lawyer” in the same context. Am I overthinking this?
At least Quark had some integrity.
Submitted 3 weeks ago by Pharmacokinetics@lemmy.world to [deleted]
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3226cc2b-00b2-44f3-b2f1-bdfd3d2b66b2.jpeg
Comments
Depress_Mode@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
MisterMoo@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Sorry but “woman” is not an adjective and its use that way is grating. You wouldn’t say “man teacher” and it sounds wrong. So does “woman lawyer” or “woman voter.”
The neckbeard/incel thing is using “female” when “woman” would be acceptable and more common, like “look at these females” or something. It doesn’t mean we have to abolish the word “female” entirely from the lexicon.
Depress_Mode@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Yeah, that seems to align nicely with the instincts I outlined in my comment. No need to apologize. Thanks!
ch00f@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
My personal rule is female adjective is okay, female noun is not.
Depress_Mode@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
From what I googled, it’s especially bad when you pair “man” and “female” together, which makes sense to me.
hangry@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
My personal take is to just use lawyer, when gender is irrelevant. This may get your audience confused when using “she” in the next sentence. But it could help weaken the stereotypes about genders if we did this more often IMHO.
If needed “female lawyer” or “lawyer who is a woman” are good otherwise.WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
I know, use the worst of all options, “lawyeress.” /s
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
They’re just called lawyers, unless they’re lawyering with their genitals and their sex is somehow relevant.
WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
There are obviously still contacts where the distinction is important.
DannyBoy@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
“70% of lawyers suffer discrimination in the workplace but only 30% of lawyers face discrimination.”
interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
“single female lawyer fighting for justice and also being single,”
echodot@feddit.uk 3 weeks ago
Best be safe and call them “girl lawyer”
InputZero@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Yes you’re over thinking this. A woman lawyer is just a lawyer. Same how a male lawyer is just a lawyer. Unless the gender of the person is important, leave it out of their job title. Use the word actor to describe both men and women who act. Flight attendant for men and women, or receptionist, or any other word. The vast majority of time you can leave their gender out of the description and it’s fine.
saltesc@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I work in statistics and we never use girl of woman, only female. The line is vastly different in age and meaning depending on culture, religion, law, or heritage. Even in western societ, 13, 16, 18, and 21 are all valid before tipping to 40, 50, 60, 65, 68, and 70 where the term can be prefixed with some form of adjective.
It’s old-fashioned. Just say female and every culture/society understands you without confusion or insult.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“Men and females.”
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Yes that’s the issue, if you use them inconsistently. Males, females. Men, women. Same for boys, girls actually. Saying boys and women or men and girls can seem belittling to the other.
Ziglin@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I consistently used males and females in some contexts but I’ve noticed that it often still comes across as weird when talking about humanoids.
MeatPilot@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“You let them wear clothes?”
jojowakaki@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Cool it over there. I look like that but I don’t call women females. That was very unwarranted.
Wilco@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Not fair to the military veterans.
They got “That’s not a woman, it’s a female soldier” drilled into them.
mle86@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
That may be but if they would shorten “female soldier”, wouldn’t they refer to her as “a soldier” and not “a female”?
Wilco@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Yes, we heard “that is just a soldier” as well. They just didn’t like the terms lady or woman, you had to use “female”.
1984@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Soldiers have a lot more than that drilled into them. Obeying authority, pushing down your own emotions, lots of shit.
I would never be a soldier.
Cocopanda@futurology.today 3 weeks ago
And from friends personal experiences. Your back and knees die in the service.
HappySkullsplitter@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
After having been in the military, it’s weird to hear people talk about the military who have never served.
Obeying authority? Sure, until ranking up and becoming the authority.
Pushing down emotions? More like learning to have control over our emotions, where those emotions do not control us.
Never be a soldier, but a fighter if needed?
That’s basically what I did. Most military jobs are non-combat that are trained to fight if needed but if they are needed than we’ve got way bigger problens than just fighting.
It will kill your soul? I for one certainly have regrets, but my soul feels intact.
Not everyone should join the military, it’s certainly not for everyone. Some people who thought it was all they ever wanted to do find out quickly that it’s not for them and leave. Whole other’s who thought they’d just join for 4 years for the college money and bail end up making a career of it and retire after 20 years.
I’m indifferent, I just did my 4 years and got out.
moakley@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“Female” is fine as an adjective. It’s when it’s used as a noun that it becomes a problem. But that’s not a new rule or anything.
Consider when someone says “Black people” vs “the Blacks”.
Nasan@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
Knew a guy that got the one-two punch of being a soldier then being a cop. Would describe people like “male, Caucasian, average build” when we were out at bars.
Wilco@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
The language culture is probably the strangest part about the military, and probably the police force as well. I know the military lingo was hard to stop using, but I couldn’t imagine going from one institutional language to the next.
fyzzlefry@retrolemmy.com 3 weeks ago
There are a lot of things unfair to vets, we can add this to the pile
Allero@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Can we stop with this for once?
Men are male, women are female. These words are interchangeable, and whoever decided one should be somehow bad or derogatory is deranged. Claim the words for what they are. Use “male” and “female” in appropriate context.
Deathray5@lemmynsfw.com 3 weeks ago
Both male and female are supposed to be used as an adjective. For example “male model” and "female model’.
The problem is using female(s) as a noun. For example “I met 5 females in class today” which is just as weird as “I met 5 males in class today”.
This meme is almost certainly a criticism of the latter and as you much more concisely put it “Use “male” and “female” in its appropriate context”.
The reason this meme is phrased like this is because many incel groups use “female(s)” as a noun in a deliberately derogatory manor and people don’t do that for men.
Also clarifying the point like this would make the meme less snappy. Though I think they could put “as a noun” at the end
Allero@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
People do use them as nouns. For example, in statistical/scientific context: “Among males/females…”, or “I’m a male”
And I certainly saw the word “males” being commonly used, which is pretty much why I’m so baffled by the need to banish its counterpart.
Incels may call women whatever, but actively banishing the word because it was appropriated by some group of weirdos isn’t gonna help - rather, it will only deepen the flawed interpretation of a very regular and normal word, assigning context to where there was none.
I’m a proud male. Why can’t there be a proud female? This only means she is a woman, after all.
mienshao@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Sorry mate, not how language works. Men is a noun, male is usually an adjective, they aren’t interchangeable. Depending on the context, it can be weird/wrong to call groups of people by an adjective (exp. illegals, poors, disableds). Hearing men call women “females” sounds weird af dude, you’re proving OP’s point.
Allero@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Why?
One can call a group of men “males”, and no one bats an eye. But once anyone uses “female” to refer to a woman, it’s a shitshow.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Can’t help but notice you’re complaining about the post but never did what the post is complaining about.
Allero@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Not here in particular, but I have been called out several times for using the word “female” in an appropriate and normal context.
peregrin5@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Honestly, a handsome specimen of the Ferengi species. I hear he was even the Grand Nagus briefly. And look at those lobes.
Salvia@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Also does anyone find it odd how often society calls grown women girls while they stick to men when referring to men without a second thought? I still do it when I’m not paying attention.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Fun use of “boys” has been really popular for quite some time. Me and the boys. Boys will be boys.
WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Hell, a business or industry run primarily by men in their fifties and older can be referred to as “a boys club.”
Akasazh@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
‘Guys’ even tho the singular is used to mean a man, is really an a-gendered plural
Salvia@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Those are specific phrases but yeah I getcha. And you could argue, like some other replies said, sometimes “boys” is used in casual ways, “girls” is used as an equivalent to “guys”, it can mean “gals” too. Fair points but I do believe people have some kind of aversion to “woman/women” and won’t ever use if in a fun context. it’s just an uptight sounding word for some reason.
abfarid@startrek.website 3 weeks ago
Stereotypically, women always strive to look as young as possible, so calling one a girl can be seen as a compliment. While men, stereotypically strive to appear mature, hence calling one a boy can be considered an insult.
idiomaddict@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I don’t disagree with you that society does think that way, but I disagree with the sentiment so much.
I’m 33 and afab. I accepted being called a “girl” until I was about 23 (probably not a coincidence that that was the age at which I graduated college), but it started chafing at like 16, even though I didn’t have a good alternative at the time (because I agree that “female” as a noun feels gross). If someone called me a girl now I would correct them without hesitation in basically every scenario outside of a eulogy or wedding speech.
I really wish there was a better option. I don’t really like “woman,” but it’s better than gal, lady, dudette, chick, or girl imo. I’m perfectly fine with guy or dude, especially in plural, but I’m probably an egg, so that colors my perspective for the singular use a little.
Salvia@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Same as the other reply, I don’t disagree. Do I think there’s mal intent? Nah. But I’m sure this has an unconscious effect on how we perceive women. Besides lots of women look young without even trying, I think with the improvement of medicine and public health, people in general are just looking younger nowadays so we should nip this habit in the butt.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
I just view it as a quirk of the language. “Guys and girls” or “guys and gals” are paired words. Guy is a casual way to refer to men, so I think people use girl as a casual way to refer to women because it’s sort of the pair to guy. Lady feels too formal.
mienshao@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
As a man, this has legit always bugged me. We use “girls” in contexts that we would NEVER use “boys” in, even when they’re the same age.
AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
I have to keep reminding myself of this. I’m in my late 20s and I still slip up when referring to myself sometimes.
Thcdenton@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Anecdotal but most people I hear using ‘female’ are women.
Shardikprime@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
If they have big ears they are either the big bag wolf, or ferengi in disguise
arotrios@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
andros_rex@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Gotta love how “”””radfems”””” love the term “adult human female” too.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Trans women are adult human females.
andros_rex@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
True. It’s just a slogan in the same way that “being White is all right” is or “All Lives Matter” is. It’s not supposed to mean what it means. It’s a code.
Like - once, 4chan (/pol/ and /b/ primarily, early mid 2010s) that it would be funny to make drinking milk a racist thing. It was explicitly discussed how this would make people upset about people drinking milk, and how this would be funny. The alt right weirdos in on the joke get the joke, leftists are befuddled and outraged, the stupid conservative weirdos are laughing at the dumb liberals and their cancel culture getting worked up about milk. Same thing with that pinched thumb and index finger “okay” symbol. 14 and 88 have lost their plausible deniability in most spaces at least.
Very similarly, the idea of MAPS was a /pol/ operation that was carried out to delegitimize the LGBT movement. The idea of people identifying with a sexual orientation based on being exclusively attracted to children, to the point of creating a pride flag, was mostly a /pol/ op. This is not to say that there aren’t creeps who did actually identify as such as a consequence of this movement, but it wasn’t a natural movement of creeps.
Language games. The limits of my language are the limits of my world. The means something entirely different even in just human there.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Obviously the exclusionary group is going to exclude the people they don’t like with their slogans though. Trans exclusionary radical feminists don’t believe trans women are women. The “adult human female” shit across from them “defining woman” or something to that effect.
IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I recently watched The Orville, and immediately think of the Moclans and their Ultra-Misogyny
smiletolerantly@awful.systems 2 weeks ago
Clyden!!!
Jean_le_Flambeur@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Honest question from a non native: what is wrong with the term female?
And what word could you use for the sex girls and women are part of?
xx3rawr@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Non-native as well but for me, “female” is an adjective and only used as a noun in technical setting. If used in regular conversation setting, it’s condescending and dehumanizing.
Good:
- There are fifteen females in the survey.
- The female is more aggressive, typical of hyenas.
- You bought the wrong USB cable, this one is a female.
Bad:
- This female is not very good at her job.
- You females need to tone it down.
Jean_le_Flambeur@discuss.tchncs.de 1 week ago
Also interesting because in German progressive/queer femeist groups use the term
“Weiblich gelesen” (literal: read female, meaning: assumed to be female)
If we want to refer to someone who looks like a women by conservative standards but about whom we don’t know if they actually identify as a women.
“Weib” (degrading term for women derived from the word “weiblich” (female)) on the other hand is considered very rude and only used by conservative/sexist people.
Just find it interesting which words are differently connotated in which language.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Female is still an acceptable term in some context: eg, when referring to the social group on a societal level, female can be fine, also for identifying someone’s genetic/biological sex as “female” for medical/official contexts, that’s still okay in most cases.
Where it’s not okay is to use it on an individual level or to refer to a small group of ladies. The term is seem as cold, clinical, and in some cases, dehumanizing. It comes off as boiling down a person to their function in reproduction and nothing more. “You are the female and you carry children.” Kind of thing. Like women are some kind of bakery for your crotch goblins, and not people worthy of respect.
But something like “the female population of the country” is fairly okay, since you’re referring to the entirely of the people who identify as female, not an individual or small group of individuals.
At least, that’s my take. I’m just some guy. If any women want to correct me, I defer to your judgement and opinion, and happily retract any contradictory statements I may have made. I am always happy to be corrected.
Jean_le_Flambeur@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Okay I understand.
So “books with female protagonists” would be okay (because large group referenced) “Bus with female passengers” would be considered rude, because small group referenced, you would rather say Bus with women and girls as passenger"?
MECHAGODZILLA2@midwest.social 2 weeks ago
I’ll be real here: no one irl cares, we’re so careless with our language people understand what you mean more by vibes than vocabulary. I’ve not heard a single person take umbrage with female outside of the internet.
Warl0k3@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Short answer: It’s a turn of phrase the Incel movement popularized as a dehumanizing dogwhistle.
Long answer: In current American English, “Female” and “Females” are highly formal terms and really are only commonly used in situations like law and clinical literature (this is true of “male” and “males” as well, though there’s much less cultural baggage associated with those terms). People who use them in casual conversation instead of the much more common “Women” (or the diminutive, “Girls”) tend to be the kind of person that uses formal language to emphasize their own superiority over the common masses. Almost invariably this takes the form of explanations about why nobody wants to have sex with them, and it all goes downhill from there.
Acinonyx@lemmy.sdf.org 3 weeks ago
haha yeah imagine being ugly lol
Flemmy@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
I refer to them as laaaaydeeeees
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
You’re just encouraging me to refer to women as “females” with this.
someacnt@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Why do you post my appearance like that? Honestly, it’s derogatory to relate my kind of people with the assholes.
bennypr0fane@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Very similar to those who refer to women as “uterus-havers”. Pretty much the same.
myrrh@ttrpg.network 3 weeks ago
…it’s how you imagine people look or it’s what you imagine people look like, but not both…
tehn00bi@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
What the guys behind closed doors at the Republican Party leadership look like when they take their mask off.
AidsKitty@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
No matter what you say there will be complaints.
RabbitBBQ@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
They are all just from the rib of a man or whatever it was anyway, right?
seeigel@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
Just tells you how easily the media can seed prejudices. One good story is enough.
Shape4985@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Iv said it so much ironically that its now part of my vocabulary
motor_spirit@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Pinklink@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
I was once explaining to someone how a group of my family is part of a “religion” which is really a cult. I was saying how females (being inclusive of the adult women and young girls) in this cult have no body autonomy and how fucked up it is. I was interrupted to be informed that the term female should not be used. They interrupted my explanation of how my fucking family member is being forced to get pregnant over and over, how the girls are being treated like property or pets, because correcting my use of the word female was more important. I will never forget or forgive this moment. I hope this anecdote highlights priorities for everyone that has such a strong opinion about this. Also, I imagine if I wasn’t male, this would have been a nonissue. I don’t know about anyone else, but I actually do want equality. Double standards are outdated.
Bunnylux@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Context is important. In your case, you’re using female to designate a biological characteristic - aka, a reproductive ability that the cult is specifically exploiting. Some men, especially online, use “female” in a way where normally someone would use the term “woman”, in an attempt to dehumanize women. It’s unfortunate that the person you were talking to couldn’t tell the difference, but as for never forgiving them, maybe a gentle correction could be more warranted?
chuckleslord@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“Hey, bigots say this and it makes people sound like bigots when they say it”
“I used that word correctly and was told that it made me sound like a bigot. Maybe think about that?”
Cool, maybe get mad at the bigots who ruined the word for people rather than the people saying the word was ruined by bigots.
It’s like when people get mad at the r-slur being a slur now. Like, no, it was always intended as an insult based on medical language. It was always going to become a slur.
Now people are using the word female to both alienate and other women in their language and to “sound smarter” when showing bigotry. Also, you were probably told to not say it because they knew you were better than the assholes who say it in a demeaning way. Maybe… think about that?
Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
How about we just stop letting bigots have every fucking word and don’t assume negative qualities about people from an insignificant distinction, cultures are different and just assuming someone is a bigot because they used the word female in a proper context is absolutely idiotic and counter productive to actually fighting real bigotry
Skullgrid@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: “I am sorry, but I couldn’t help myself. It’s my character.”
good luck getting the bigots to change.
brbposting@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
(emphasis mine) Moments where someone’s heart was in the right place are the most forgivable for me
If I could choose my reaction it mighttttttt be akin to….
“LOL did you just knee jerk reaction b/c ‘female’ is word of the week on fascist social media? Well thanks for caring but this will derail us for a thirty-second language & comprehension lesson…”