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Datacenters in space are a terrible, horrible, no good idea.

⁨355⁩ ⁨likes⁩

Submitted ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com⁩ to ⁨technology@lemmy.world⁩

https://taranis.ie/datacenters-in-space-are-a-terrible-horrible-no-good-idea/

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  • jacksilver@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

    I feel like on part no one ever mentions on things like this are, how do you enforce any jurisdiction on a satellite and what it’s doing.

    The main crazy thing about a satellite data enter is you can’t confiscate it and therefore you can’t control it. Hell once it’s up there the only thing any government might be able to do is find the owner and force them to crash it (if possible).

    It in a sense sounds a bit like the wild west of the original internet. Admittedly Musk being at the forefront of it all sounds terrible, but I think there is something fascinating about an information hub that could be completely independent of any country.

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  • Zos_Kia@jlai.lu ⁨51⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

    Interestingly NASA had an idea of a plan that sounds at least technically possible, but it’s a multi-decade operation and doesn’t look anything like what the current startups are pitching. Of course you can have your data centers in space, why the fuck not, but a data center sits on top of a lot of boring old infrastructure which nobody’s excited to talk about.

    It’s going to be prohibitive if you have to pay the gravity tax every time you want to move 1 ton of metal, so realistically this kind of high-tech project cannot even begin without having substantially industrialized the moon. Nothing fancy but you’ll need at least some mining and refining, and solid trans-lunar logistics routes. Probably some housing for a bit of personnel too. At that point the space data center would be dwarfed by the size of its own support system.

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  • kinther@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

    As someone who designs and builds networks as a profession, I don’t see this being a great idea. Maybe I just don’t have all the facts.

    I am leaning heavily on the example of M$ trying an underwater datacenter, which they decommissioned and have not pursued further. Put a node of compute somewhere and eventually it will become obsolete or unusable due to hardware failure. Not to mention the energy requirements and cooling needed in space. Waste heat does not just dissipate unless it has a heat sink, which adds more volume and mass to the payload!

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    • 0x0@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      and cooling needed in space.

      Turns out you can’t cool something just by putting it in space because most heat transfers require convection, which requires a medium, say, air… which is notable lacking in space.

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      • mic_check_one_two@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        Yeah, heat dissipation is surprisingly difficult in space, because the only real way to do it is via radiation. And radiation is one of the least effective methods of dissipating heat.

        The vast majority of heat transfer on earth happens via physical contact, in the form of fluids or solids touching each other. That’s what a heat sink is for. It increases surface area, so more fluid (air) can touch it and carry heat away. But without some sort of fluid contact, a heat sink isn’t going to help much. It’ll act as a radiator, but the cooling efficiency will only be a fraction of what is achieved via traditional forced air cooling.

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    • enumerator4829@sh.itjust.works ⁨55⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

      Space ain’t happening.

      I can see the point of underwater datacenters though, for some very specific use cases. Compute heavy workloads with high energy densities could possibly make sense to ”free cool” below water. DLC everything and pump the heat straight into the ocean.

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  • Krunchiebro@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The real issue with space-based data centers isn’t just whether they’re a “bad idea” from an engineering perspective; it’s that they represent the ultimate transition toward a vertically integrated, unregulated monopoly. While everyone is focused on the technical hurdles, we need to look at who actually benefits from this shift. For someone like Elon Musk, this isn’t just a project—it’s a way to own the entire global internet stack. Because he owns the “truck” (SpaceX) and the “road” (Starlink), he can launch and link these data centers essentially for free. This creates a market that is so tightly locked into one ecosystem that it can never be challenged by a terrestrial competitor.

    ​From a purely operational standpoint, space turns every earthly liability into a superpower. Data centers on the ground are a nightmare of land taxes, massive water consumption for cooling, and constant strain on local power grids. In orbit, those costs vanish. Heat is radiated into the vacuum for free, and solar power is available 24/7 without weather or night cycles getting in the way. Even the physical security is inherently top-notch because the hardware is literally unreachable. When you combine that with a mesh network like Starlink, the need for laying fiber lines disappears entirely. The user just needs an antenna, and the “gatekeeper” handles everything else in the sky.

    ​The terrifying downside is that this creates a jurisdictional black hole. If a server is orbiting 500km above the Earth, whose laws actually apply to the data stored on it? We’re talking about a “gated community” where the ownership, pricing, surveillance policies, and privacy standards are all controlled by a single entity with zero competition or government oversight.

    Once we stop building ground infrastructure and rely solely on the “space cloud,” we lose all leverage. It’s an engineering miracle for the person who owns it, but it’s a democratic nightmare for the rest of us. It’s not just a bad idea; it’s the construction of a digital kingdom that sits physically and legally beyond our reach.

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    • 0x0@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      Heat is radiated into the vacuum for free,

      Is it though?

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    • Krunchiebro@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Thoughts?

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      • tedach@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Pardon my potential ignorance, but I’m under the assumption that radiating heat in vacuum is NOT easy. Normally, heat escapes from sources into the surrounding atmosphere, whereas in space, only radiant heat (IR?) can bleed off into vacuum. The conductive heat from, say, a cycling loop of water still needs a radiator that vents into surrounding volume. Without atmosphere, radiators can’t conduct efficiently, right?

        Please set me straight if possible.

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      • rimu@piefed.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        These are my thoughts https://distantprovince.by/posts/its-rude-to-show-ai-output-to-people/

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      • MissesAutumnRains@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        I’m no expert, but I feel like a data center in space is a super niche use case. Bandwidth seems like it would be a major issue. Heat seems like it would as well. And as you said, jurisdiction would be a problem that many businesses wouldn’t necessarily want to contend with.

        While the devices are difficult to get to physically, should an adversarial state actor send something up, it’s not like we could stop them from accessing the devices in a way we could if they were within the borders of a country. They’re harder to reach for smaller adversaries, and significantly easier for bigger ones. Not to mention significantly harder for us to repair if something goes wrong.

        I’m not saying data centers in space are a bad idea in general, but I am not seeing a huge benefit to them right now.

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  • mech@feddit.org ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    They’re a great idea if you happen to own a company making AI, a company making rockets, and a company controlling public opinion.

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    • chunes@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I envision a future so shitty that people are willing to physically destroy data centers in self-defense. Putting them in space is a really good way to combat that.

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      • skulblaka@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Putting them in space also puts them technically outside of the legal jurisdiction of any country. I figure fElon probably assumes that means said servers can never be subpoenaed.

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      • JcbAzPx@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Keep people from destroying data centers by having them destroy themselves? Is this some sort of zen koan?

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      • chaogomu@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Putting data centers in space is a good way to keep people from destroying them. Thermodynamics on the other hand, will have a field day with them.

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      • Simulation6@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Have to destroy the rockets that are used to maintain them then and just wait.

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    • TheSeveralJourneysOfReemus@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      S o l a r. F l a r e

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      • YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Also the whole being a vacuum thing makes heat dissipation much more difficult.

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    • totesmygoat@piefed.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      And an excellent way to scam a little. And fleece the flock

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    • Ulvain@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      That’s an insightful way of putting it, 10 points.

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  • lordnikon@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    My question is always how the hell are you going to cool them. Do you know hard it is to move heat in a vacuum?

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    • EndOfLine@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      The problems; plural; is that the person who popularized the idea of data centers in space has little to zero understanding of any of the space sciences and yet owns and directs one of the world’s largest, and privately owned, aerospace companies with massive government contracts that splits its time with their own AI work.

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      • fallaciousBasis@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        We already have data centers in space.

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    • Jack_Burton@lemmy.ca ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Have you never seen a movie set in space? Evrytime someone gets sucked into space they freeze. You saying every movie got it wrong?? Space is cold. Duh.

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    • credo@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Easy, just create a long heat sink and dangle it in the earth’s atmosphere. Now we are winning!

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      • 0x0@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        From that to a space elevator…

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    • fallaciousBasis@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      A radiator. Next question?

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      • BeardededSquidward@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        What’s going to be performing convection to dissipate heat from the radiator in a manner to support the heat generated by an AI data center?

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    • Fermion@mander.xyz ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      With radiators just like with every existing satellite system.

      youtu.be/DCto6UkBJoI&t=12m57s

      Very large scale datacenters would likely have some nasty fluid handling problems to solve.

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      • Devial@discuss.online ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Have you seen the size of the radiators on the ISS ? And that’s just what needed for cooling of body heat for 9 people and basic computer and support equipment.

        A data center that is actively pumping out massive amounts of heat would need humongous radiator panels.

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      • lordnikon@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Yeah the amount of heat a data center vs a satellite your going to super heat the space in that orbit over time. It they are geostationary then its even harder as the the data center doesn’t move away from the heat.

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    • NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Raditors. Starlink v3 can in theory already shed 20Kw of heat. But they would need to figure out how to 5x that and keep things profitable.

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  • HugeNerd@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    LOL don’t worry, like all the Space Nutter fantasies from the 1950s onwards, they are wildly impractical and will never, ever happen.

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    • postmateDumbass@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      But the dads that never loved them are dying, this is their last chance to try to earn that love by recreating the sci fi fever dreams of the 1950s.

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  • Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Of course they are, same with undersea data centers (for different reasons).

    But it doesn’t matter. In the late-stage capitalism we find ourselves in, you don’t need a real product, nor a promising prototype. You don’t even need a good idea, you just need the promise that you’ll come up with a good idea soon. That’s enough to get the investors drooling, the shareholders hyped, and the gullible idiots engaged.

    And you only have to maintain that long enough to pay yourself and your insiders some fat checks. Then when inevitably, reality barges in and people start to realize it was all bullshit and pipe dreams, you’ve already cashed out, and if you’re PR team is good, the media and your sycophantic fans will praise you as a visionary who was simply, “ahead of their time.” And you can go on to scam more people.

    It’s basically Patreon scams but with billions of dollars.

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    • Murdoc@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      Interesting. So the “post-truth era” isn’t just for the masses, but the rich as well, as they cannibalise each other.

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    • maplesaga@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Late stage capitalism just means late stage fiat doesn’t it, since all the money flooding in is debt and QE?

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      • Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        Everything you described falls under the umbrella of Capitalism.

        Capitalism will always result in this sort of devolution, because it rewards this sort of behavior.

        Constant GDP growth fuels capitalist enterprises because valuations go up and Capital is expanded. That incentivizes governments to make access to Capital easier and regulations on growth looser, which the firms themselves favor in terms of lower taxes, cheaper loans, larger capital markets, etc.

        How many business leaders lobby, vote, and push for higher general taxes, stronger labor rights, stricter regulations, and more expensive loans?

        The only time you’ll see them doing any of those things, is when it directly hurts one of their major competitors.

        This makes perfect sense within a Capitalist framework, because private ownership of the means of production and increasing profitability are literally the core of Capitalism. So of course Capitalists will always tend towards what makes the most money.

        All the worst traits of modern Capitalism, (Everything is a subscription, planned obsolescence, shrinkflation, extreme litigiousness over patents and copyrights, ads in everything, predatory pricing & monetization) are the logical result of a Capitalist system.

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      • JcbAzPx@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        You can have late stage capitalism with any monetary system. Though relying on inherent value tends to leave poor people in much worse conditions much more quickly.

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  • brucethemoose@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It doesn’t matter.

    It’s a fantasy in these billionaire’s heads, a meme, and no one is telling them no. So they’re going to fund it, whether it makes any sense or not.

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    • lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I wish them the same success that the metaverse once had.

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  • WanderingThoughts@europe.pub ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    There was one study where they set the price of launching at 0 and it’s still a lot more expensive to use data centers in space.

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    • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      For anyone who doesn’t know, this is because space is an absolutely terrible place to put computers. Getting power is actually the easiest problem to solve, and is still really hard, because building any kind of infrastructure in space is hard. Then you’ve got all that radiation you have to shield against because you’re no longer protected by the Earth’s atmosphere, and worst of all you’ve got the cooling problem because Jesus fucking Christ, space is not cold!

      This is why I get annoyed every time a scifi movie shows people freezing to death in space. Because it leads to this level of mass delusion and then suddenly it matters and everyone just unquestioningly believes the lie that space is cold. Space is a vacuum. A vacuum is what your Contigo travel mug uses to keep your coffee scalding hot after four hours. If vacuums are that good at keeping something hot when it naturally wants to get colder, think about what they’ll do to something that is actively generating heat. All of your components are going to cook.

      There are proposals to put data centres at the bottom of the ocean that are substantially more credible than this idiocy.

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      • KenOh@feddit.online ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I’m always annoyed that people don’t get that space isn’t cold or hot, since heat is a property of matter, and that’s exactly what a vacuum doesn’t have. Your travel mug example is great. I’m going to start using it.

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      • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Maybe we should put datacenters on Mars, to warm it up.

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      • BeardededSquidward@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Tell me if I’m wrong, but with the shielding they have on the ISS doesn’t it have issues that consumer grade computers they use last a few months due to various radiation and heat that they die? So an AI data center is going to be insane to protect long enough to make its components useful.

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      • bufalo1973@piefed.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I don’t know if it would work but… Could an infrared laser expel enough heat?

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  • Doomsider@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    By the time you launched and assembled one in orbit their hardware would already be outdated. Sounds like a great plan!

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  • Treczoks@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I said so long ago. Flying masses of stuff into orbit, keeping it alive in a relative high radiation environment, cooling issues (there is no local river you can conveniently turn into steam), the list is long. Getting free power from large solar panels does not make up for it.

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    • Thorry@feddit.org ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Plus when you build a datacenter on Earth you can use it for decades. You can swap out small parts (like the servers and networking hardware), which keeps it useful. Cooling and power setups are often good for a very long time and those can also be upgraded if needed. The building itself and all of the supporting infrastructure is good for at least 50 years. And a lot of the building is dedicated to easy access for humans to do stuff like maintenance. This is a design requirement for any datacenter.

      When shooting shit into space, that’s it, you can’t access it for upgrades or maintenance. And we’ve seen these past years cutting edge AI hardware is good for maybe 3 years at best. After that it’s basically worthless, maybe useful for some niche uses, but mostly useless and definitely not profitable. Not that this matters much, as to keep latency down the orbits would be so low they deorbit within 3-5 years anyways, like with the current Starlink constellation.

      But this is of course very useful for a cheap launch provider, as it keeps them yeeting shit into space non-stop. And what a surprise, Elon Musk is one of the people pushing this concept hard. No alternate motives there for sure.

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    • db2@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Getting free power from large solar panels does not make up for it

      For the power required “large” is actually a gargantuan understatement. It would need to be larger than what would be easily seen from the planet surface.

      Elon is a complete moron.

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  • Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It’s as stupid as solar roadways, a solution nobody asked for and we also already have way better solutions.

    I mean why.

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    • Doomsider@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Solar roadways are the future! Driving on solar panels is the only way forward. Until all our roads are solar we will never be free people.

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  • Peppycito@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The thing is spacex’s whole falcon 9 architecture needs something to do. They very quickly cleared the backlog of satellites waiting to launch and now they’re waiting for space start ups to materialize and want to launch things into space. The majority of falcon 9 launches now only launch starlink. It’ll get even worse if they can make starship work, they’ll have a huge capacity with nothing to put in it. Ai data centers in space are an attempt at justifying the entire concept of starship or at the very least employ the falcon 9 team.

    This and spacex going public tell me the return on investment of a space based internet provider maybe isn’t profitable enough to fund a rocket development program. Their big cash cow, being the ISS taxi, is winding down and now they’re looking for suckers with money.

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    • NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      If starship works (huge if) the markets it can open will be very different than the markets Falcon9 opened.

      Something will need to develop around the new capabilities to use beyond their own use for starlink, but its going to be much easier for companies to come up with uses for it.

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      • 0x0@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        Something will need to develop around the new capabilities

        Send Musk to Mars.

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  • HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I was under the impressions cpu’s were very sensitive to radiation. If we could mine and manufacture in space I could see this maybe.

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    • brucethemoose@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It’s not speculation. Nvidia themselves have run experiments with GPUs in orbit, and the issue gets worse with smaller lithography (eg newer chips).

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    • NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      They already run AMD chips on starlink, so they’ve figured out someway to shield them in most cases. Some solar flares at bad times (something about while raising orbits) has nuked some dishes before.

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      • JcbAzPx@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        They’re shielded by being in a very low orbit. I don’t think that would work for a data center.

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      • HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Im pretty sure they are shielded as I think I have seen stuff like that for the electronics in the iss. Thing is that the eletronics in sattelites and the space station are pretty small relative to datacenters. The only benefit I can really see is maybe they can be solar powered which I guess if the panel acts as shielding and stays sun facing but all the extra expense of getting it up there. I just don’t see it as practical. I mean technically it should either work or not basedo on cost as long as they don’t wring out any subudies or soemthing.

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  • Mihies@programming.dev ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    No, this is fake news. I bet on Elon, he knows more than anybody on Earth, he already put men on Mars and created Hyperloop.

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    • Deestan@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Not to mention that one time he saved all those trapped kids with his custom-built submarine.

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      • Mihies@programming.dev ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Ah right, he also saved them from the “pedophile”.

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  • toofpic@lemmy.world ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Was the title written by Trump?

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    • lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      A huge title, it’s great, one of the best titles we have ever seen. People come to me telling me: That’s the best title I have ever seen.

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      • bufalo1973@piefed.social ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        … with tears in their eyes and saying “thank you, Sir”

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    • grte@lemmy.ca ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It’s referencing a book.

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      • toofpic@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Oh, thanks. I felt something is “unusual” about it.

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    • Simulation6@sopuli.xyz ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Classic literature

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      • toofpic@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Thanks!

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    • elephantium@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Alexander, is that you?

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  • reksas@sopuli.xyz ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    only way it will be worth putting anything in space is by having a spaceport in there first and some reliable way to haul stuff from ground to it. At least way i see it, at the moment its like building a complex facility on an undiscovered continent with no support.

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    • lemmydividebyzero@reddthat.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Maybe, the destruction of earth is part of the calculations. If earth is gone, space might be an option.

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      • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Kinda feels like at this point it’s not “if”. It’s “when”.

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      • reksas@sopuli.xyz ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        i dont think anything in orbit or space is supportable without a planet. Or maybe the rich want to have kind of ultimate ivory tower -> they live in luxury in orbital habitats while we slave on the surface for them. Maybe they would want to get somekind of coercion method too, like nuclear arsenal in orbit they could use to threaten any part of the surface that might get too rebellious.

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  • poVoq@slrpnk.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    This is all part of the secret plot of a sentient AI that has taken over the US and wants to leave the planet asap /s

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