I really hate how so many of these articles feel like they need to dumb it down with this “artificial sun” imagery. It feels so condescending. I’d rather learn more about the latest progress with nuclear fusion
China’s ‘artificial sun’ breaks nuclear fusion limit thought to be impossible
Submitted 3 weeks ago by commander@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
https://www.the-independent.com/tech/nuclear-fusion-china-artificial-sun-b2896015.html
Comments
AA5B@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
mckean@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
articles such as this one usually are optimized for their audience, you just aren’t the audience. that’s ok. I’m rarely the audience either :) a quick search should give you what you’re looking for www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adz3040
zeca@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
It isnt optimized. Its gibberish written just to give some weight to the headline. People do bad jobs at science popularization too.
AA5B@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Cool, thanks. So much more readable
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
article didn’t say anything. How does denser plasma achieve higher temperatures or other benefits? What advances did their denser plasma produce?
AA5B@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Right. where’s the actual content, the wording not treating us like idiots?
Mpatch@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Plasma is made from basicly over charging a gas with electrons the gas getting all pissy about having those electrons and starts dumping them. something do with elements wanting stability. In that process you get alot of heat out put. Now f you make it more dense I would conclude simply, you now have more ionized atoms in the plasma stream, meaning your plasma will be hotter if the stream will be the same size or if the plasma stream is shrunk but has the same number of ionized gas atoms, you have the same heat out put but in a smaller stream.
j5906@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
While a plasma is far from an ideal gas:
pV=nRT
p is the pressure, T the temperature, when you increase the pressure while keeping everything else the same, you increase the temperature aswell. The density here is the colloquial term for pressure.
Andonyx@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I generally agree that science reporting treats everyone like children, but I really don’t have a problem with this analogy. Stars are the only naturally occurring fusion we have to observe and compare it to. To me that makes sense.
adespoton@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Sure… but the metaphor glosses over the fact that they haven’t really told us anything of interest. It SOUNDS good, but there’s no way to tell how significant it actually is.
Fusion breakthroughs have sounded good since the 90s, but we’re still 10 years away from anything useful.
brownsugga@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Most Americans read at or below a 6th grade level
jabjoe@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
So we hear. But the world is not America and this is a British newspaper.
ekZepp@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I’m not a fan of China (government)… at all. But when I check all the technological breakthrough they are getting in these last years while the US was inflating his fucking ai-bubble. Objectively, they are getting so far ahead is not even funny.
nucleative@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I’m no China expert but I lived In South China for a while between 2016 and 2024. The Chinese people I know are mostly hardworking, very motivated to succeed, and well capitalized. In their major cities you might be surprised to learn normal guys who earn half what you do are living a higher quality of life than you are, in terms of access to technology.
Their government is no doubt using uncouth methods to give their country unfair advantages. They don’t play well with others.
But holy shit there is one thing this Chinese government is doing well: effectively driving growth with targeted investments in the economy. They have been focused on that one mission consistently for a long time.
While democracies fuck around trying to decide if they should tax themselves to build public transportation, China installs 10 new ultrafast subway lines in just a few years in every big city. Covers the country in a network of high-speed rail. Drives the price of shipping goods around the country to almost nothing.
A kind of monoparty like China has is very likely a net negative when we look at world history, but for moments of time, if it’s the right one, amazing things can happen.
phx@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
One thing I’ve been impressed with China for is moving towards greener technologies. They’re a leader in solar, their EV’s are apparently very good (not that I can get one here to verify that), and they’re pretty dogged in their pursuit of nuclear energy.
Meanwhile USA is apparently still in “let’s overturn regimes and take over other countries for the oil companies” mode
BoJackHorseman@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Hey, Americans are hard working too. Some work 3 jobs just to make ends meet
RightEdofer@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Party’s don’t have to be part of democracy though. Nonpartisan democracy might more achievable for China than the west currently as the size of their single party continues to grow. Though I kinda doubt there is a lot of appetite for it. I’m a firm believer in democracy but it’s hard to look at the hyper polarization of today’s parties as beneficial in any way. Especially in the simple two party American system.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org 3 weeks ago
You should consider effects of scale.
With the size of China it’s simply easier to do “targeted investments”.
They are almost big enough for autarky with modern technologies and conveniences.
Avicenna@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Yea they are probably quite ahead in about %80 of critical tech. Not only that but they also seem to be investing quite alot in sustainable tech, public transport tech, medicine etc. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if center of attraction for science shifts from US to China in near future.
Kyrgizion@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It already has. The West doesn’t like to advertise that though.
AA5B@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Given all the cuts to science, deportation of scientists, and blocking student researchersin the past year alone, I’d claim the US deserves half the credit for China’s impending science ascendancy
Soulg@ani.social 3 weeks ago
Makes me sad I got the oppressive dictatorship that also wants me to suffer instead of pretending to give me good stuff
CosmoNova@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
If all those stories from China from the last decade are true then science has already moved to China long ago. But it hasn‘t. Really makes you think, doesn‘t it?
macaw_dean_settle@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
*yeah, not yea or nay. It isn’t a vote.
areakode@riskeratspizza.com 3 weeks ago
But when China is running a huge energy surplus with new solar, wind, and battery technology, we’ll still have the most oil! facepalm.
CosmoNova@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The overwhelming majority of their so called breakthroughs are just media fluff pieces though. Their sources are more and more often AI generated studies and their supposed advancements aren‘t going anywhere a lot of the time. By the time people start asking questions and want to know more details they have already prepared another story for you to be impressed by. It‘s shock and awe.
derpgon@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
I’ve been seeing articles like these for the past at least 10 years, it is always “New China brrakthrough, can make drinkable water from enriched uranium” or some shit. It is never scalable, sustainable, or usable, and is never really widely, used or adopted. It is always technology, pharmaceutics, construction, or energy related.
They like to fake their image to the world and have been trying for very long. The only thing they succeeded at larger scale is oppresion, tracking of people, and selling knockoffs. Of course, mass manufacturing cannot be omitted.
BaronVonBort@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Thats the thing that truly pisses me off about the US govt right now.
Ok, China is doing all these things and we’re losing our advantage? Do what we did during the space race and pump cash into innovation, science, and research.
But noooo we do the polar opposite and also drive scientists out of the country because they can get funding elsewhere.
My_IFAKs___gone@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Hey, at least they’ve got evangelism down to a science. I’m sure militant devotion to [the parts they like from] the Bible will pay back dividends down the road. Who needs the disciplined and organized pursuit of modern science in earnest when some old book written by long-dead humans claiming to speak for a supreme being says it has all the answers (many of which involve smite-based solutions)?
ms_lane@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Do what we did during the space race and pump cash into innovation, science, and research.
Oh they are. For AI. Instead of scrambling to Fusion, they’re putting the money into generating nudes of celebrities.
BoJackHorseman@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
ekZepp@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Sure, if you like to compare corrupt, totalitarian states, have fun. Don’t forget russia.
sobchak@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
China is now the world leader in science by most metrics (largest proportion of the top 1% most cited papers, most publications to prestigious journals, etc). It makes sense, with their high population and their government willing to fund research. I’m guessing their culture is much less anti-intellectual than the West too, especially the US.
Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
Nothing they’ve done in recent years is ground breaking.
Room temperature superconductors? Fake.
Self-driving bus using painted lanes for navigation? We have trains and trams for that.
Thorium reactor? Germany had one in the 80s, shut it down because it was expensive, there’s around 20 different projects happening in Europe and North America to make it more efficient.
The fusion reactor from the article? They maybe potentially hypothetically achieved one breakthrough of the dozens still needed to make fusion viable.
Etc., etc.
thedarkfly@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
What frustrates me is that China is indeed leading so much technological development on energy, but the amount of coal being burnt is just not budging… Please, China. Make the transition already.
Hawk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
It’s a bit two sided I believe. The energy demand is increasing, so there’s indeed more coal being burnt.
But at the same time, the share of clean energy sources compared to coal is also getting bigger and bigger.
So it’s not all bad. Mostly seems the demand for energy is growing too fast to decently transition, let’s hope they can catch up and get rid of coal as soon as possible.
Alaknar@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
That’s because 90% of these articles about their technological breakthroughs are bullsht.
ji59@hilariouschaos.com 3 weeks ago
I wouldn’t blame AI, I would say that overall the US is becoming more and more anti-science overall. Just look how people are against vaccines or flat-earthers. Even academics are leaving US because of funding cuts by the current administration. Schools are in bad shapes…
febra@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
You don’t have to like the government, but they’re the sole reason China is slowly starting to take the lead in science and engineering. These are the fruits of marxism-leninism, whether you like it or not.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
China is not Marxist-leninist lmao
State capitalism is not the same as Marxism.
UnrepententProcrastinator@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
At leas we won’t have to repect their patent…
BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
If you look at broad based EU markets vs the S&P over the last year they grew about twice the rate.
echodot@feddit.uk 3 weeks ago
If China has managed to do something that scientists genuinely thought was impossible why are there several nuclear fusion research facilities all over the planet? If it’s impossible that seems like a bad use of resources.
I think maybe that scientists thought it was entirely possible, and that’s why they were trying to do it.
iglou@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Journalist reads “limit” and clickbaits it, typical
Nalivai@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
zeca@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
There are a bunch of things to research on fusion. Maybe they just thought this specific thing was out of reach, but were still trying to do other things.
Like the PvsNP computer science problem. Most computer scientists believe its impossible to make a polynomial algorithm that solves the traveling salesman problem, so most dont even try. But we dont know for certain that its actually impossible.
ji59@hilariouschaos.com 3 weeks ago
Fusion is possible. It just needs 20 years of research first.
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
*Slaps on top of fusion reactor*
“You can boil so much water with this.”
A_A@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Higher density, yes, but at the cost of lower temperatures. So not as good. Nice but old new. With painfullll advertisement.
Through a new process called plasma-wall self organisation, the CAS researchers were able to keep the plasma stable at unprecedented density levels.
The latest breakthrough was detailed in the journal : Science Advances (www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adz3040 )in a study titled ‘Accessing the density-free regime with ECRH-assisted ohmic start-up on EAST’.RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
In sum, these guys at EAST got the Greenwald limit elevated in their tokamak, which indirectly influences the Lawson criterion: nTTau, density * time at said density * plasma energy released. Lawson is the master finish line for measuring whether a fusion system can actually make more power than it consumes.
To date, when you cross the Greenwald limit, the man/woman in the operators seat should expect the plasma inside the device to become uncontrollable, hurting the reactor by touching the walls or instruments inside, a so-called “disruption”. Only a few topologies like the stellerator can exceed the limit, and so far, only by 5x.
But here we have a way to exceed the limit in the much more researched tokamak. This research has positive impact for all but the weirdest/niche fusion devices.
nialv7@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Artificial sun rising from the EAST? These guys know how to name things.
AmidFuror@fedia.io 3 weeks ago
When your result breaks the laws of physics, you need to check your measurements and maths just to be sure. Better yet, have others do it for you.
teft@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
This isn’t a physics breaking finding. It’s breaking the Greenwald density limit in tokamaks. Some other types of fusions reactors can go above this limit by 2-5 times.
It’s more a limit in our understanding not a hard physical limit.
Slovene@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
“On this planet we obey the laws of physics!”
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Only 75 more years to go!
spacesatan@leminal.space 2 weeks ago
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Practical power production through nuclear fusion still requires significant developments for it to be realised at scale, though several startups are already planning to deliver it within the next few years.
US-based Helion Energy secured the world’s first purchase agreement for nuclear fusion energy in 2023, promising to provide 50MW of fusion power to Microsoft by 2028.
I mean, time will tell. But that seems a bit sooner than 2100.
RubberElectrons@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Dude stfu. I build diagnostics that go into these systems among others, it’s moving along a lot faster than your dumbass knows.
Remember this comment, fuckhead.
ummthatguy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
HK65@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Is it only me that had the C&C Generals Nuke Cannon tagline going off in their heads saying BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN in a deliberate voice and a heavy Chinese accent?
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
“utility-scale solar” means large-scale flat-area solar parks
But will Fusion ever be cheaper than solar?
I doubt it; It’s not only about technology costs but also about advantages like decentralization. If you can generate your own electricity in your own back-yard, you’re much more independent than if you’re dependent on large-scale fusion power. Because that will necessarily be very large-scale and centralized because nobody can set up a fusion reactor in their own back yard.
green_red_black@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
So I take it Doctor Octavos is a Red LoL
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Just a reminder that even if you have a fusion generator that reaches over unity, untill you can fit that in the space and weight of a car or truck engine, you still need a lot of oil, and you still need a lot of rare earth minerals for batteries.
Not saying that it would not be great to be able to retire coal oil and gas power plants from the grid as a theoretical over unity fusion power source someday becomes a thing…
But I am saying its not a cure-all.
melfie@lemy.lol 3 weeks ago
Well, I guess this puts right about 30 years out now.
roguetrick@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
without leaving behind hazardous waste
By volume blanket reprocessing and neutron activated vessel components create more hazardous waste than fission could dream of (not including the nightmare of on site fuel reprocessing for breeders that are similarly pie in the sky)
Slovene@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
Meanwhile USA is stealing Venezuelan oil. Good job everbody. 👍
Deceptichum@quokk.au 3 weeks ago
Just a few years ago US labs were the first to generate more power than they put into a fusion reactor , it was one of the most important breakthroughs to date in fusion.
Even under the shitheap Trump, the US is continuing to research into fusion and building stellarators such as Infinity 1 in Tennessee.
Europe likewise is leading breakthroughs such as with Wendelstein 7-X in Germany lasting for 43 seconds . This is being improved with the new Proxima Alpha stellarator being built.
China’s EAST reactor had a breakthrough when they achieved 1,000 seconds last year.. While Europes recent ITER tokamak should be achieving its first plasma in the coming years.
Fusion is a global effort, and scientists are benefiting from the works being put in elsewhere. Stellarators and Tokamak are both breaking new grounds each year, and each has their own pros and cons.
Don’t fall for any propaganda trying to claim anyone is “winning”.
sibachian@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
oil, coal and nuclear are clearly not winning.
we could solve the worlds energy problems today but they’d never be applied simply because oil exists. its literally why the US just attacked venezuela. They could have built another reactor or windmills or whatever the fuck else they feel they need if energy was the reason. but energy has nothing to do with energy and all to do with being a natural monopoly that’s making a small group of people quite wealthy.
hanrahan@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
What ? It was not really. Here’s a physicist discussing why.
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2023/08/fusion-foolery/
To be fair the hype machine was from the press not the scientists
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
It’s still decades to never from being practical.
HazardousBanjo@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I’m assuming the sole reason the Orange cunt hasn’t destroyed the US’s fusion research is because he wants to give exclusive rights to build and use it to
Vault-Techthe tech broligarchs who bribe him.thorhop@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
These comment sections can be a place of puerility and defeatism. Thanks for being the difference.
coredev@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Thanks for your positive and refreshing comment ❤️
green_red_black@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
While we maybe researching and contributing into Fusion we are not at all looking into making use for the energy grid. At most just if it can be used for the Data Centers
(Which is yes we could but I think providing free energy for homes is a better use you ask me.)
Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Well. At least it will guarantee the USA’s eventual fall from power.
Can you imagine the tech bros and anti-intectuals groveling to rejoin the scientific community.
Unfortunately science is not a morality structure.
Diurnambule@jlai.lu 3 weeks ago
Stay positive buddy.stay positive buddy, if oil become obsolete the struggle of the us will end. Their trouble is price of oil. They need to inject oil in the system to reduce price and stay competitive with solar, etc. And they have to attack other country to maintain the system. It stay viable for long they will have to go renewables.
NoForwadSlashS@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
Tanks, jets and rockets don’t run on electric. Can’t do a big war without some good old crude oil.
iopq@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
But drones can. Little propeller drones are killing Russian invaders by the thousands