Submitted 2 weeks ago by JustJack23@slrpnk.net to showerthoughts@lemmy.world
False equivalence is a logical fallacy where two subjects are incorrectly compared as if they are equal, despite significant differences between them. This often leads to misleading conclusions, as it oversimplifies complex issues by ignoring important factors.
I think what you meant to say was “boo cars!”
Except both are polluting and take up unnecessary space. A bicycle or public transit is much better.
I think “metaphor” fits better. Media literacy, y’know.
“I don’t want to discuss or address any complex issues, so I will double down on the false equivalence”. - this guy 👆 is very smart.
While this captures some important similarities between the two, I think you missed the most important that makes OP’s thought valid.
Both are individualistic approaches, unlike centralized energy generation or public transit, which are collectivist approaches. While the former grants greater independence to wealthy enough individuals, the latter is much more efficient and grants liberty regardless of personal wealth. For the individual in a fragmented and individualistic society, the former makes a lot more sense (especially since they cannot build a big energy plant or rail line). As a society, it’s several orders of magnitude more meaningful to push for the latter.
Lol, human energy pollutes the most.
I live in rural place and both aggregate and car is pretty necessary things.
Only because public transit is shit in rural areas due to the coal, oil, and gas lobby.
In countries like Switzerland, it’s available even in rural areas. A big country like China can build them aplenty. And the US used to have a much denser network of public transit.
We have basic public transit, and id say long distance transport is excelent, but it does not serve me at all when i need to drive because of my work from farm to farm, or i want to pick mushrooms or berries from random forest plots.
Lmao.
Bruh I was in Switzerland last year, their rural areas are like 20min from their urban areas. You can literally fit 26 countries of Switzerlands into a single province of Ontario.
Public transit is great, but you’re acting like public transit can cover all the edge cases of country living and it just fundamentally cannot.
Aggregate? It shouldn’t be necessary these days, care to elaborate?
Last winter snow pressed trees against the power line and it rook 36 hours for electric company get it fixed.
If you live in a densely packed city. You’re absolutely right
if like birdwing says that switzerland can do it in rural areas too, then others can do so too
And then someone else actually living there says, yeah, that’s not actually true nor practical day to day.
this is exactly it. We really need more affordability with density. As many folks as the city has if money was not an object there are a ton of people living in the burbs who would be living in hi rises. I really like the idea of car free. I would sorta like city center to be car free and have it expand slowly outward.
The car isn’t bound to any schedule, isn’t limited by any predetermined bus stops, and can carry the TV you just bought.
I hate carrying my new tv everyday twice a day on random times, but I do what I must
I don’t have a car, but sometimes I envy those who do. They can just look for furniture on second hand listings online and then just go and buy it.
If I need to do the same I need to do some serious planning ahead.
OP is kinda advocating for a sensible public transport where schedules don’t matter due to frequent intervals and with a dense network of stops that are walkable. Possibly supplemented by car sharing or cargo bike sharing for the rare occasions someone has to transport something bigger than a week’s groceries.
The car is a crutch we need while society and politics fail to achieve okay public transit.
The car isn’t a crutch, it’s more like someone injures you, then gives you a crutch without fixing up the leg
Yeah, but in the communist bubble people like OP live in, you don’t need a schedule because nobody has to be anywhere at any specific time, you can walk to the bus stop, and that TV you just bought is OUR TV, so, thank you!
I’ve said similar things in anti-car communities, and I have never gotten (or seen) a good answer. They just dogpile on the downvotes hoping it gets pushed to the bottom and that too many people aren’t hiding vote counts/weights and just sorting by all/new.
You’d think a person would want to address the most logical challenges to the argument, but that’s not how the Internet works. I don’t think it’s ever worked that way. If you find a place where it does, drop me a line.
Frequent tranist. Missing a tram is no big deal if another is coming in 5 minutes. It needs to be a tram with priority tracks and signals so it stays on schedule.
Missing a tram and losing 5 minutes is the same as hitting a couple extra red lights or being delayed due to construction or a collision. Planning to arrive a few minutes early fixes any issues you would have from possible delays.
For the low low price of your kidney and the environment and all the car deaths, great deal I think. /s
You should probably look into the environmental costs of trains and bused before spouting such nonsense.
The public transit isn’t bound to any road rage, isn’t limited by parking spots, and can carry the TV you just bought.
Hahahaha, all you got is “road rage”?
Go ride a bus in NY, LA, Chicago, Philly (I have).
Fuck that.
I’d say it’s more like, wanting a car is like wanting your own septic tank rather than a connection to municipal sewers. In an urban area it would be an insane waste of space to have individual septic tanks. But in the country the cost of building and maintaining infrastructure for just one household would be incredibly wasteful.
Yeah this is a much better analogy, if you think cars are useless you probably don’t have relatives in places where the bus goes maybe twice a day if there is a bus going at all.
And if you think that commuting to your job within the city where there should be well built out public transport is acceptable then you are also mistaken
Cars are only rendered “useful” by deprivation of public transit as a common good from the people.
With buses that run multiple times an hour everywhere, the car is rendered useless. People will move to where there are connections.
The country is part of the area, though. Without urban areas, there’s no meaningful distinction. The ‘country’ depends on urban areas, e.g. for medicals, shopping, and so on.
I’m not sure I understand? The country depends on urban infrastructure for sure. But population density plays a big role in how necessary services are provided. You have to be very remote and rural in most western countries to not have electricity, because it’s easier to connect wires than be fully self-sufficient in energy generation. But waste pipes are harder to scale over distances, and septic tanks provide an affordable local solution. I’d love for the local council to install and maintain pumped pipes for all waste, but it would be a huge and unnecessary expense for the community.
Similarly, wherever people cluster, you can make efficient transport solutions that serve the. But if someone lives hours away from the next habitation, it’s hard to create a soloution that’s more efficient than them driving to the nearest transport hub. And if we could get rid of 99.9% of cars owned by people not in that situation, I don’t think we need to worry to much about the few farmers who still need them.
Where are bikes in that analogy? Because they’d work amazingly in rural areas were it not for cars
I’d say, they’re like digging your on latrine. A totally effective solution, as long as your physically able and your needs aren’t exceptional.
According to Google maps the nearest grocery store is 34 minutes away by bike with a 600ft elevation change, almost all of which is in my neighborhood. Going to work would be an 80 minute ride with 950ft of elevation change. I also live where it snows in the winter and my neighborhood sometimes doesn’t get plowed at all. Furthermore even if I wanted to ride a bike I would have to get onto a highway to get anywhere.
There is no public transit near me. None. At all.
Stop pretending that everyone should just live in a dense city and be happy with 30 neighbors.
As a big car-hater myself, I can agree with most of what you’re saying here (the “but it snows” argument is baseless though, see Denmark).
I think that if you’ve chosen to live in sparsely populated areas, then being car-dependent is your choice and you should be able to have that… but you don’t get to drive your car into the city.
Cars ruin cities. They’re loud, dangerous, dirty, and they kill millions. If you’re happy to live like that, then that’s on you, but you (I’m using the “motorist demographic” here rather then the personal “you”) can’t insist on having wide, multi-lane, high speed roads and plenty of free parking where most of the world’s population actually lives. You park at the periphery and take transit or a bike into town.
Can only agree. Cars don’t belong in the city. They’re loud, polluting, take up unnecessary space, kill walkers and bicyclists, and so on.
Lol looking at a few different sources online, Denmark average snow fall is around 20-30inch (50-76cm) per year.
In the US average between states range from 0 to 645 (1640cm). 34 states are above 40in(101cm) and 23 states are over 100in(254cm).
en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_snowiest_places_in_the…
Good luck biking through a foot (30cm) of snow when it gets dumped overnight and keeps going for another foot during the day.
I live near artic circle and snow is really a problem im rural areas. If the roads have not been cleared its very straining to cycle. Wet snow is even worse and in late autum and late spring there can be ice hidden under the snow and even spicked tires wont help with that. Ebikes help with that, but most ebikes arent designed to subzero temperatures and low to middle price bikes emty the batteries much faster. Especially if the battery is fixed to the frame and you need to leave it outside during work or when going to shop.
On the other hand i lived in “winter cycling capital” of the world and you cant compare the well maintenanced bike lanes to rural roads.
(Also i laugh at the notion that Denmark knows anything about winter)
I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to bike up a snow covered road at a 30 degree incline but I certainly don’t want to try it. Last winter me and half my neighborhood couldn’t drive up the only entrance road for several days after a heavy afternoon snow.
If parking and transit from the periphery of a city into the core actually existed and were usable then I’d like that but that’s not the world we live in now. One of my biggest gripes when traveling to a new city is trying to find parking for any of the big tourist locations. More often than not there is very limited street parking and no parking garages for several miles, nor any obvious transit locations. I often ended up just not going to the place I wanted to see because I can’t find a good way to get there.
I don’t mind walking a couple blocks to go somewhere. I do mind having to walk 30 minutes to see the one shop or restaurant I was interested in.
If you don’t already live in the heart of a big city they absolutely suck to get around in. Even more so lately with the advent of apps for parking or transit that you have to sign up for beforehand and that don’t have cash or card readers for non locals. I absolutely LOATHE creating accounts for more garbage apps and services I need to use a single time.
You had me until the 30 neighbors bit.
Do you not have apartment complexes where you live? You can easily hit that number in your building ALONE depending on how many units there are. Then you have buildings around you because apartments aren’t just a one off.
Let’s say you live on a city block with 8 houses on each side and there’s an average of 2 people living in each house, that’s still 32 people.
I live 20 miles from the nearest place where I can spend money.
Without personal vehicles, no one in my area could survive.
We also pretty much all have diesel generators. Power outages are frequent and winters are cold enough to kill.
Your argument makes no sense.
Have you ever lived somewhere else, you can see how good life is when you have both proper electrification and good public transportation
P. S. I am not telling you to move, I am wondering does my argument make no sense to you because you don’t know anything better.
I have lived in major cities.
This is way better and would not trade it for anything.
Genuinely fuck your assumption. Have you ever lived rurally where the only sound you hear is your own fucking waterfalls?
Fuck off. Your opinion is shit.
Have you lived anywhere else
Oh, the irony. YOU need to look in a mirror and ask yourself the same question.
You’ve just decreed that everyone else is doing it wrong, yet you have no idea what it’s like anywhere else.
P. S. I am not telling you to move
If that’s not your point, I can’t figure out what it is.
you don’t know anything better.
See that sounds very much like classism. People live in rural areas for a variety of reasons. Rural living has one set of problems, urban living has a different set. One is not better than the other. If I got you wrong here, I apologize.
It’s a chicken and eggs problem, without cars the nearest place to spend money wouldn’t be 20 miles away.
What if my home is powered by solar and a home battery, and my car is an EV? I basically have a personal generator and it’s fantastic, it’s just not Diesel, same for the car.
That is better, but the best would be a bicycle and public transit.
Bad weather and payload capacity wants a word with you.
I’m going to sound like a carnivore on a Vegan sub now, but genuinely I’m disabled and not easily able to use the bike/transport options.
Apparently 36 minutes walk away from my nearest train station if I walk on a grass verge on a 60mph road with no pavement, there is a bus but that is 28 minutes to the train station with a change of bus and 9 minute walk.
I could probably manage the 2nd option, but not a lot else for the rest of the morning.
That is not exactly the point, the point I was making is that utility like electric is a public utility provided for use, just as public transportation can be. But we are stuck in thinking about the car in that private mindset that if we apply to utility like electric is like having a diesel generator powering your home.
I just joined c/fuckcars and this is deep
I feel like that community is just a honey trap for pedophiles. Where else would you find so many naiive children?
yikes
In some places with unreliable power it is. It’s not a third world problem either. I have worked in parts of Australia where power is unreliable because you are in the middle of nowhere and you are the end of the power line.
Can’t you manage it with a battery and wind/solar?
Too many trees around sadly and it was part of a national forest so we couldn’t make a clearing.
I’m 14 and this is deep.
Good lord this is a SIMP.
Trains can’t do burnouts.
But they can do multi-track drifting. Checkmate, conservatives!
Look up wheel slipping, I assure you they can do burnouts and the amount of power behind them is scary AF haha
I like the idea of train nascar
Sorry you live in an undeveloped country.
It is extremely common for people in the country to have massive propane tanks for heating and backup diesel generators, here in Canada.
Yep.
OP knows fuck all. Diesel has storage issues, so u less you’re using it continuously it’s not a good choice.
What about … an electric car?
They’re mostly to save cars. Does it reduce pollution? Yeah, but in the long end, bicycles and public transit are much better. They take up less space and are more comfortable.
The electric car is the solution to save cars, not the environment. It still makes roads bigger than they would otherwise be and divides cities
Seriously depends on what you are doing with that car.
I would not expect my plumber or electrician come by bike, even a cargo bike.
There are people who have to commute to work, and who don’t live in city centers. Public transport is either bad or nearly non-existent.
Arguing against a car comes from the narrowmindedness of living in a city center with short ways and buses every five minutes.
ITT: butthurt carcels who try to invent every excuse possible to not go by train/bus or bike.
I don’t even have a drivers license, and I recognize there are limitations with public transport / bicycles.
Lmao, no bro. Just people who understand how public transit doesn’t extend everywhere. Do we need to bring up a map and highlight the routes covered by public transit and the ones covered by roads so that you can see the difference?
I disagree, they are indeed useful BUT their infrastructure shouldn’t have more care than public transports, it should be on the same level
Make public transport, cheap and frequent through the country, along with a cheap reliable car share/hire scheme… and you’d see the need for cars dwindle.
It’s easy for certain types of people to claim the high ground, when they have no idea what it’s like for everyone else… they live in gilded cages in cities with cheap and easy to access public transport… so they have no need for a car… and thus no one has a need for car either… they’re so blinkered, they might as well be blind… and the ignorance that goes with the preachy mentality is even worse.
So when I can walk to the end of my road and catch a bus to the next town over… without it taking over 2hrs to travel 6 miles… via a 16 mile trip in the opposite direction and changing buses that means sitting around in the freezing cold for 40 mins… I’ll consider giving up the car… But the chances of that happening are ZERO because ‘capitalism’ dictates we must CONSUME, CONSUME, CONSUME… there is no will with govts or the rich to do a damn thing… and the rich account for around 49% of ALL individuals emissions.
So take the preachy bullshit and shove it somewhere dark and stinky.
You got this from your hippie great-grandma’s diary when she wrote it 50 years ago.
Engywuck@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Not everything is black or white, my friend. Some people don’t have a car, some have a car and use it unnecessarily, some other use it moderately and so on…
JustJack23@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
What is your point?
krox@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Probably that you are being very hyperbolic