Capitalism is all about competition unless it’s not.
Why Americans Can’t Buy the World’s Best Electric Car
Submitted 8 months ago by Davriellelouna@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Wolf@lemmy.today 8 months ago
Capitalism isn’t about anything other than keeping the ruling class rich and in power. How it chooses to do that has varied throughout time. During the 20th Century the lie was that “American Style” capitalism was fair because the capitalists would promote Laissez-faire style economics (“Free Trade”) out of their mouths, while actually building monopolies.
With the rise of Trump-style ‘conservatives’ Republicans have adopted a new strategy, Mercantilism. Mercantilism doesn’t even pretend to be fair or free. The word ‘Competition’ doesn’t even appear anywhere in that article because competition is bad for Capitalists and they see no reason to continue to lie about that. They actively oppose free trade.
Even if ‘Capitalists’ possessed the ability to feel shame for being hypocrites (which they certainly do not), calling them out for not following along with the principles of ‘the free market’ does no good since they have abandoned advocating for that a while ago.
kebab@endlesstalk.org 8 months ago
Would be great if the competition was not about stealing others’ technologies
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 8 months ago
<Page Not Found> on your link. But yeah it sounds like that would be great.
Zetta@mander.xyz 8 months ago
I’d argue that a critical piece of competition for all nations has always been stealing knowledge and technology.
thatradomguy@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Bill Gates has entered the chat.
network_switch@lemmy.ml 8 months ago
Tariffs be damned, I will not buy an American brand car. They’ve been mediocre my whole life and it’s always been easier to source parts for Hondas and Toyotas. I’m not sure how repairable any EV is, but I doubt American brands will top the charts of value in repairability in my lifetime
kfox@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
Got a subaru as my first non-american car. The old CVT torque converter is wearing out after 120k miles, but she survived being lightly t-boned with just a door repair
Psythik@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Manual swap time
sturmblast@lemmy.world 8 months ago
After 25 years of other brands I finally went Honda and I can’t believe how happy I am with it. I never have problems.
network_switch@lemmy.ml 8 months ago
Over the years I think Honda and Toyota are the two brands I most commonly see an old guy managing to keep running well for 30+ years and hyper focused on wanting to break 500k miles or dreaming of hitting 1 million miles someday
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I’m not sure how repairable EVs are either, since my 2013 Leaf never needed repairs in 12 years. Just tires and wiper blades.
ThePrivacyPolicy@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Yeah that’s a good point in a sense. Mechanically I think they’re a lot less repairable (or at least a lot less at home repairable), but from the angle of needing repairs, they also need less repairs because most of what tends to fail on ICE vehicles is all the mechanical stuff attached to the engine. Even on my hybrid I repair a ton less and my mechanic said that because all the accessories are electronic since they can’t be belt/chain driven because the engine is off half the time that they’re ultimately more reliable in the end - it’s the mechanical aspects of them that fail on ICE vehicles.
sylver_dragon@lemmy.world 8 months ago
American made car? Ya, I own a Toyota Sienna. And ya, I don’t think I’d buy an American brand again.
BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 8 months ago
How do you like it? It’s on my short list for my next car.
melsaskca@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
But it would also help american people. Which is more important, I wonder.
Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 8 months ago
Stop giving them more reasons not to allow it
Don_alForno@feddit.org 8 months ago
Also, slave labor.
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 8 months ago
LOL US cope
Are the slaves in the room with us now?
The only country with massive slave labor is the US with its prison system.
Or their good friends the headchopper gulf statesSoleos@lemmy.world 8 months ago
There is plenty of modern slave labor and exploitation going around. No major manufacutring nation is innocent.
ipitco@lemmybefree.net 8 months ago
How does it compare to tesla in terms of privacy, ownership (DRM) and stuff?
timeghost@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Privacy in terms of a large, rolling chinese surveillance machine covered in cameras, mics and sensors, full of chips and sporting bluetooth, cellular and wifi? I’m sure it’s fine.
ipitco@lemmybefree.net 8 months ago
USA is already at nightmare level, and the big difference is the USA will use it against you where China can’t really reach you
Anyways, I would appreciate any proof or comparison between the two
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 8 months ago
BYD?
yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
The number 1 electric car company, they passed Tesla recently
MBech@feddit.dk 8 months ago
Giant chinese car manufacturer. They’re the most popular PHEV Manufacturer in Australia and is rapidly growing in Europe.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 8 months ago
Oh no! The type of capitalism where we have to compete!
Make it go away, Daddy Trump!
LMurch@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
Sadly, I think it was Biden that put a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. Fuck Trump, but come on, Biden, don’t do this shit for them. I really like that new Xiaomi YU7.
III@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The issue is not so simple. Blocking BYD has a lot to do with protecting American manufacturing jobs. That’s not to say Biden’s tariff was the right answer. But it is a more complicated problem to solve than it appears from the perspective of a single car buyer.
buddascrayon@lemmy.world 8 months ago
But the Chinese government could be spying on you if you bought a Chinese manufactured car!!
P.S. for bonus points, does anyone know where most GM automobiles are currently being manufactured?
drmoose@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Tbf notoriously China subsidizes BYD to net loss so its not exactly capitalism.
BeardedBlaze@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Did you forget all the bailouts US car manufacturers received?
stoly@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The US subsidizes farms and petroleum.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
fair game IMHO. if you look at china as one big agent, then they can indeed act like that.
BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 8 months ago
What do you think Walmart does when they enter a new market, the eat losses till the local competition folds and they are the only option left
theonetruedroid@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
It’s state sponsored capitalism and China has pumped a ton of money into BYD to get them to where they are.
I can see them giving larger tax breaks to companies in the US, but current administration is all in on tariffs as the way to increase our domestic production. It doesn’t make ours any better or cheaper, just everything else more expensive.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 8 months ago
So do a lot of other governments, to be fair. It’s one of those industries that employs a lot of people, and it’s always bad press to close it when a bit of money could have kept it. Certainly cheaper than putting thousands of people on benefits.
Plus there’s subsidies for domestic sales as well. The UK at least had a grant for plug in cars that they ended a few years ago, presumably just to get the infrastructure up and running.
But then the new vehicle price is neither here nor there in the long term, since most people drive used vehicles anyway. What matters is how many vehicles trickle down to the masses, and whether wear on the battery is a concern. Some of the early smaller models didn’t have great batteries to start with, but as a daily driver to the shops and work it’d probably be fine. For some reason the conversation always drifts over to “but what about that one time you drove across the state” or “remember that time you transported a fridge”, as if that’s something people can’t work around for the once a year they do it.
bstix@feddit.dk 8 months ago
All car manufacturers world wide are subsidized.
subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent-totals
Of course China can make cheaper cars, because most car manufacturers get their parts produced in China anyway.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 8 months ago
[They phased out their subsidies in 2022]news.cgtn.com/news/2023-11-18/…/index.html)
They still have a trade in program to get ICE vehicles off the road.
gizmonicus@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
Good. Fuckem. They make shitty, oversized trucks that are a danger to pedestrians and people who drive reasonably sized cars anyway.
Unrelated@feddit.nl 8 months ago
The Chinese too know how to make unnecessary large cars, unfortunately.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 8 months ago
My boss in the UK got one. In bright red. It looks like he’s driving a fucking fire engine.
GingerGoodness@lemmy.world 8 months ago
My old boss was a huge man who went around in a little yellow convertible. We called him Noddy.
May I suggest calling him Fireman Sam?
carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I mean, didn’t Japanese and Korean automakers already do that?
rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Yes. They did. That’s called competition. It forces companies to improve by destroying them, except they don’t want that. And politicians don’t want that, cause it makes corruption unstable.
Killed Detroit too, though. But, eh, helped other parts. It’s life.
Thus already in the 90s with the TRON OS a different approach was chosen by US regulators - threaten Japan with sanctions if it’s allowed to compete with Windows inside Japan .
They can’t threaten China, but they can prevent Chinese competitive goods from entering US market and improving its economy again.
Bad economy - poor and stressed people, poor and stressed people - worse political decisions, worse political decisions - good for middlemen which in our age shouldn’t exist frankly. We have the technologies for direct democracy, it’s not 1920s.
bitjunkie@lemmy.world 8 months ago
funkyfarmington@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Maybe GM could, I don’t know, innovate?
AA5B@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Targeted tariffs and protectionism can help a situation like this, combined with subsidies like the ones Trump cancelled, to give legacy manufacturers a temporary respite to retool and innovate. However backtracking on your transition, reverting to the tried and true short term profits is just hiding your head in the sand. GM will find itself increasingly marginalized and more years behind. You can’t hide behind trumps skirt forever
drmoose@lemmy.world 8 months ago
As an European living in Asia and can’t help but cringe at American cars. They’re so far behind.
fishy@lemmy.today 8 months ago
Agreed. I’m American and think American manufacturers make the ugliest and worst cars. Outside of the Corvette, which remains the best spots car in it’s price range.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
They have some wonderful new finamcial products released just this quarter!
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
Where free market? It will regulate itself /s
rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 months ago
It will. It really does regulate itself, no /s needed.
Except that happens via some businesses going bankrupt and some adjusting.
And either it’s free enough for monopolies to crash, or regulated enough for monopolies to be killed, or both.
If it’s neither, then you have today’s tech industry.
mormund@feddit.org 8 months ago
Well China did subsidize that industry massively, to a point were their domestic market is flooded with very low margins. So the market is already very distorted. But I find it hard to hate on that because flooding the market with electric vehicles and solar panels is better than anything economists are coming up with.
AA5B@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Plus people usually bring it up in a stupid way. Yes they did. Yes we do that too (for all the “we” on the internet). Some amount of that is entirely normal on the global market.
The real problem is US conservatives who understand car manufacturing is a strategic industry but do not want to give that guidance to aid the transition to new technology, US politicians who can’t cooperate on a coherent long term industrial policy, US politicians who can’t look beyond short term profits for their corporate owners, or outrage headlines for their constituents. There’s nothing magical about Chinese companies taking over the industry, nothing hidden, just politicians establishing a strategy and sticking with it long enough to benefit
RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Six months ago I moved from the US to a country where BYD and other Chinese brands are available. In the past I owned GM cars. The former GM executive is correct. After trying Chinese cars I find it extremely difficult to justify paying 40-60% more for a car made by GM or anyone else.
kalpol@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
They’re pretty well known here for low quality flashy vehicles, with premiums for luxury not quality.
IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Because it’s available to anyone. Not just Chinese owned companies and every other auto maker has similar taxes.
Fedditor385@lemmy.world 8 months ago
American manufacturing seems very incapable of change. If things worked this way for decades, why change it? Meanwhile the world moved on and they ask themselves why doesn’t anyone wanna buy american…?
atk007@lemmy.world 8 months ago
You think Americans can’t change, just look at German Automakers. They are stuck in Perpetual denial. VW only moved electric because of the massive diesel scandal, otherwise they also would have been like every other car manufacturer.
Fedditor385@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Yes, but nobody ever expected Germany to be quick and adapt. Germany does not do that in general. It takes something that exists, perfects it, and then sells the perfection of the existing thing. US on the other hand, has the reputation where innovation begins and does wonders.
It is the same situation, but the expectation is completely opposite.
pugnaciousfarter@literature.cafe 8 months ago
Even if they changed how would they win?
They’re just too expensive to manufacture as compared to chinese ones.
Fedditor385@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Expensive is not a problem it it’s followed by the appropriate quality. Also, US should be far more able to use tech to automate and make efficient, same as China can use cheap labour. In the end, a robot is a one-time fee, doesn’t get sick, and can work 24/7, easy and fast to learn new processes. Long term a robot will always outpeform a human.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 months ago
If they are too expensive due to cost of labor, they can do, look at other comments, increased automation.
With automation China’s advantages over US are mostly in the bureaucratic efficiency area. Both in the government’s parts interacting with big companies and in the companies themselves.
US big companies are just too used to preferential treatment and solving market problems with lobbying, which worked when they were the spearhead of progress or something.
ToadOfHypnosis@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I am union so don’t misunderstand the comment, but doesn’t BYD rely heavily on terribly paid non-union labor to reach it’s price advantage?
BehindTheBarrier@programming.dev 8 months ago
Tesla somehow manages to do well(at least prior to the nazi events). Still at a good price in Norway.
But all other manufacturers have dragged their feet with EVs, and that price cost of starting is large enough that they are in trouble. I’m not a huge fan of China, but they did the investment and are ahead exactly because of that (and crazy subsidies). Being left behind is their own fault imo, and I think that applies a lot to EU as well. Eg. WV.
Honytawk@feddit.nl 8 months ago
They could try going for quality or features.
But instead they are only going for size, what 94% of the world does not care or want. (this includes the 5% of Americans)
sommerset@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
So here is the thing.
U lost. The moment I need American people to bail you out, you need to treat American people way way the fuck better.Worker rights, mandatory vacations, work protections, pensions, guaranteed healthcare etc.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Bailouts are unacceptable period. Trained workers, factories, factory hardware, logistics specialists, engineers, patents and so on - they all remain in the economy. That a company fails and goes bankrupt is not a bad thing. It’s just that company. Not the industry as a whole. If there are no additional mechanisms.
Somehow Americans seem to have forgotten that the kind of “capitalism” which gets defended is about this exactly - a company goes bankrupt, too bad. There are other companies which will hire its workers and buy its assets. Possibly new companies created by its former employees. Its shareholders have gambled and lost, well, their problem. That’s what an unregulated market is, by the way, and not bailouts to big fish and horse dicks for small fish.
If something works differently - workers don’t find a new place to work in, factories go to scrap metal, engineers go flip burgers, patents are collected by trolls, and new companies are not being created, - then something has been broken by an existing policy.
Patents are the worst of it, but also non-compete clauses, legal impediments for creating new businesses, legal expenses making it harder, - these things have to be removed.
I mean, people on Lemmy love to dream of something like what you list, those things are good, but maybe fixing some basic things about what you already have is no less useful. Especially since these fixes do not cost any money to maintain, while, well, pensions and healthcare do.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
why bail out the companies and not the people?
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
Okay but see none of tjose are stock buybacks or exec bonuses, so…
zbyte64@awful.systems 8 months ago
So even Canada has lower labor costs because of universal healthcare.
thann@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
So they dont care about making cars for the world market, they just want regulations to allow them to milk the american market…
zbyte64@awful.systems 8 months ago
Decoupling the market was them admitting their stuff is not as popular to the global market
M0oP0o@mander.xyz 8 months ago
As is tradition
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 8 months ago
When Americans of all political stripes eventually wake up to global realty - they’ll most likely do it lying on a sidewalk with their fingers in their ears saying na-na-na-na-na-na…
People will eventually have to face that the economic golden age of the 1950s and 60s wasn’t a normal state we can return to if greedy billionaires just let us. The rich definitely grabbed the biggest share of the prosperity, but that brief era of prosperity wasn’t normal, it was entirely abnormal, and it’s been over for quite a while. We’ve been fooling ourselves and keeping it going for the last half century by living on credit, and that’s about to end.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world 8 months ago
That might be true, but also a certain revolutionary purging of world politics would do a lot to return to something close to that. The golden age happened after the world war and decolonization, when western countries were full of veterans, and laws governing their lives were much simpler.
Internet-assisted direct democracy, open borders, open trade, radical changes in patent laws, simpler laws generally - all this can exist.
We simply have too much legacy everywhere strangling development.
The bad guys are trying to make it appear that the only legacy that can be stripped is that of French revolution ideals, human rights and civilization. That actually we don’t have to strip, that is all good. Just them.
It’s normal. Sometimes humans need surgeries, and sometimes a part of an old building has to be dismantled - maybe there’s a pipe in the wall that leaks, or maybe you need to retrieve a human skeleton found using some new technology, whatever. And you throw out garbage regularly.
So a reform for direct democracy (with ranked choice between variants having, say, 1000+ initial supporters in some incubator to get to the vote itself, because we have computers, storage and connectivity to make everything desirable for such) IMHO would go a long way to fixing half the problems in the world.
SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Dam maybe some of the American automakers who took billions in subsidies should have built cheaper cars instead of the largest trucks possible to skirt regulations.
jaykrown@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I bought a used Chevrolet Bolt '23 which is the closest I could get, they’re still relatively cheap and mine has been working great.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Lmao, Chinese shills are actual news now? Fucking low as it gets.
UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Meanwhile, instead of trying to compete they cripple all EV advancement to make a quick buck on fossil fuel.
qyron@sopuli.xyz 8 months ago
I don’t give two cents for the american auto brands but spare me the drama: try and make a proper car.
Looking at Ford: try importing a few models from the european line and offer it in the states. Small, economic, somewhat reliable, fuel efficient cars.
Stellantis has a slew of models that could be brought into the american market. They make good cars.
And I’m willing to bet GM as a few models they build and market overseas that would be guaranteed sucesses.
M0oP0o@mander.xyz 8 months ago
Good? Also is the american car sector not already dead from the us becoming a tariff issueing pariah state?
Gsus4@mander.xyz 8 months ago
Well, this is where specific targetted protectionist policies can work, provided they are used to buy time to catch up, to differentiate and for RnD and not just to bury your head in the sand and keep making expensive shit products.
kemsat@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
shaggyb@lemmy.world 8 months ago
That’s fine.
Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
Only if they chose not to compete
zeca@lemmy.eco.br 8 months ago
So when can we stop with this “free markets” nonsense in the third world aswell??
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
I’d drive one
sturmblast@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Good, let’s do it. I’m tired of our tax money keeping shitty car companies floating.
phx@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
And no competition. I’m pretty sure that they can shave some of the price off from that massive jump that came with COVID due to [checks list] “supply chain issues” and yet never went back down after…