They have never considered actually competing have they?
Why Americans Can’t Buy the World’s Best Electric Car
Submitted 1 month ago by Davriellelouna@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 1 month ago
dinckelman@lemmy.world 1 month ago
They’ve actually done the exact opposite. The lobbying, the import laws, the absence of a foreign export market, and the manufacturing of cars that would never pass safety laws anywhere else, all resulted in the kind of dogshit that Americans have to experience now. Why improve if you’re the only player
ToastedRavioli@midwest.social 1 month ago
They have an export market, its the handful of douchebags in Australia that want compensator trucks
WanderingThoughts@europe.pub 1 month ago
Big corporations know very well how competition works and would like to avoid it at all costs.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Former big corporation*
Who also worked primarily in Chinese Automotive industry*
goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org 1 month ago
They saw what happened in the 70s and said never again will they have to actually compete with better products
Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 1 month ago
They do. For example here. Just not in your country.
Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 1 month ago
They don’t compete here either.
They’ve stopped producing passenger cars, and the Chicken Tax means they don’t have to compete on trucks.
nucleative@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Couldn’t have a thought further from his mind
NotBillMurray@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Nah man, that’s not the purpose of unrestrained capitalism. The point is to get big enough that you can buy out all the competition, then make your product cheaper and cheaper once there’s no one to compete against. It’s a bit like an economical algae bloom.
scarabic@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Detroit is easy to hate but there’s more wrong here than how much can-do energy they wake up in the morning with. If they competed on features and quality they could never compete on price. Everything we do to keep the dollar strong makes it impossible to manufacture here.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Michael Dunne has been competing the entire time, for the Chinese. His statements here aren’t fear, they’re shillery.
goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org 1 month ago
They saw what happened in the 70s and said never again will they have to actually compete with better products
Blackmist@feddit.uk 5 weeks ago
Oh no! The type of capitalism where we have to compete!
Make it go away, Daddy Trump!
drmoose@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Tbf notoriously China subsidizes BYD to net loss so its not exactly capitalism.
bstix@feddit.dk 5 weeks ago
All car manufacturers world wide are subsidized.
subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent-totals
Of course China can make cheaper cars, because most car manufacturers get their parts produced in China anyway.
BeardedBlaze@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Did you forget all the bailouts US car manufacturers received?
BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
What do you think Walmart does when they enter a new market, the eat losses till the local competition folds and they are the only option left
stoly@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
The US subsidizes farms and petroleum.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 5 weeks ago
[They phased out their subsidies in 2022]news.cgtn.com/news/2023-11-18/…/index.html)
They still have a trade in program to get ICE vehicles off the road.
theonetruedroid@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
It’s state sponsored capitalism and China has pumped a ton of money into BYD to get them to where they are.
I can see them giving larger tax breaks to companies in the US, but current administration is all in on tariffs as the way to increase our domestic production. It doesn’t make ours any better or cheaper, just everything else more expensive.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 5 weeks ago
So do a lot of other governments, to be fair. It’s one of those industries that employs a lot of people, and it’s always bad press to close it when a bit of money could have kept it. Certainly cheaper than putting thousands of people on benefits.
Plus there’s subsidies for domestic sales as well. The UK at least had a grant for plug in cars that they ended a few years ago, presumably just to get the infrastructure up and running.
But then the new vehicle price is neither here nor there in the long term, since most people drive used vehicles anyway. What matters is how many vehicles trickle down to the masses, and whether wear on the battery is a concern. Some of the early smaller models didn’t have great batteries to start with, but as a daily driver to the shops and work it’d probably be fine. For some reason the conversation always drifts over to “but what about that one time you drove across the state” or “remember that time you transported a fridge”, as if that’s something people can’t work around for the once a year they do it.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 5 weeks ago
fair game IMHO. if you look at china as one big agent, then they can indeed act like that.
LMurch@thelemmy.club 5 weeks ago
Sadly, I think it was Biden that put a 100% tariff on Chinese EVs. Fuck Trump, but come on, Biden, don’t do this shit for them. I really like that new Xiaomi YU7.
III@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
The issue is not so simple. Blocking BYD has a lot to do with protecting American manufacturing jobs. That’s not to say Biden’s tariff was the right answer. But it is a more complicated problem to solve than it appears from the perspective of a single car buyer.
buddascrayon@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
But the Chinese government could be spying on you if you bought a Chinese manufactured car!!
P.S. for bonus points, does anyone know where most GM automobiles are currently being manufactured?
BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
Newsflash: American car manufacturer says “Our cars are crap and overpriced”
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Michael Dunne is actually someone who worked in Chinese Automotive manufacturing. He’s the Chinese car manufacturer saying “Chinese cars are good and cheap.”
His word is basically meaningless.
gizmonicus@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
Good. Fuckem. They make shitty, oversized trucks that are a danger to pedestrians and people who drive reasonably sized cars anyway.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 5 weeks ago
My boss in the UK got one. In bright red. It looks like he’s driving a fucking fire engine.
GingerGoodness@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
My old boss was a huge man who went around in a little yellow convertible. We called him Noddy.
May I suggest calling him Fireman Sam?
Unrelated@feddit.nl 5 weeks ago
The Chinese too know how to make unnecessary large cars, unfortunately.
jubilationtcornpone@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
If you’re one of the largest and oldest car manufacturers in the world and the most “innovative” thing you’ve managed to do in the last 20 years is rebrand Buick into a young family brand, then you probably need some good competition.
QuarterSwede@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Don’t forget the courage to not support CarPlay/Android Auto … just stupid.
Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 1 month ago
the most “innovative” thing you’ve managed to do in the last 20 years is rebrand Buick
… then you simply have no excuse anymore to exist at all.
jubilationtcornpone@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Well they wouldn’t if not for that hefty bailout by the American taxpayers that they got back in 2008.
Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub 1 month ago
GM, maker of horribly shitty cars, and yeah, the Corvette, we know.
SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Dam maybe some of the American automakers who took billions in subsidies should have built cheaper cars instead of the largest trucks possible to skirt regulations.
lightnegative@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I can afford neither, but if I had to save up for one it would be the BYD.
American cars are just large, stupid and inefficient. Also the parts are very expensive here in New Zealand
jaykrown@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I bought a used Chevrolet Bolt '23 which is the closest I could get, they’re still relatively cheap and mine has been working great.
markovs_gun@lemmy.world 1 month ago
American cars have sucked compared to Asian cars since the 1970s. I don’t understand why people are acting all surprised that this is true in respect to BYD. Sure in the past products designed in China were stereotyped as poor quality knock offs of western designed goods, but in the past decade Chinese engineers have increasingly proven themselves as perfectly capable of making solid, innovative designs that improve upon those of their competitors. I think it’s kind of fucked up that everyone is so suddenly upset about China’s role in the world economy since everyone was completely fine using them for cheap labor over the past several decades and are just mad that Chinese companies are beating them at high skill labor and technology. Chinese companies do have an “unfair advantage” given how much they are backed by the Chinese government but American companies receive all sorts of money from the government for all sorts of things as well.
dirthawker0@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Americans have come to think of Chinese products as bad quality because of the American companies who engage them for cheaper labor. Walmart was known to order products made to a certain spec one year, then the next year demand the company increase production for the same amount paid as the previous year. The Chinese company, not wanting to lose the contract, obliges, but corners have to be cut. It should be called Americanesium, not Chineseum.
Derek Guy (Die, Workwear!) posted a thread a while back (I think about 6 months ago) about how the Chinese can and do make great quality products, pointing out high quality fabrics. Give them money to buy good raw materials, give them a decent wage, and they’ll put out a good product. Honestly, they probably have a more fair work ethic than some American companies that just feed their CEOs massive salaries or are owned by private equity.
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Its largely american cope that they are not that good at manufacturing anymore. Chinese factories build things to spec, and the customer asks for cheap, so they get cheap.
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Honestly, there’s a wide range of quality of stuff produced in China, but the expensive stuff isn’t getting brought over. The better stuff is either being used domestically or exported to India/SEA. From my limited experience importing stuff, the biggest common factor is the lack of final quality control. I ordered some small diesel engines because no else makes those but Yanmar and Yanmar prices themselves way out of my range. Even Yanmar doesn’t sell a 5hp engine. The 196cc Chinese diesel was well designed, the parts well built, but final assembly lacks consistence on the bolt torque spec and there was metal shaving left in the crank case. The bigger, more expensive diesel made by a different company had much better quality control, although it’s still necessary to flush the crank case. No one over there seems to do that.
psycho_driver@lemmy.world 1 month ago
They went through a period in the 90s where they had a huge leap in quality and almost matched Japanese imports of the time. I’d say GM is the only one who’s drivetrain quality is still on any comparable level with Asian imports. Ford gets some parts really right but then their beancounters make really dumb cuts to critical components that make many of their vehicles near lemons. I can’t think of a worse car manufacturer in the world right now than Stellantis, and they aren’t an American company anyway.
mostlikelyaperson@lemmy.world 1 month ago
The “unfair advantage” bit has been incredibly funny to me ever since I sat in a call to prepare a joint research proposal and the representative of a certain large euro automotive supplier told us that their company would only participate in any project if they got at least a certain amount of government funding.
CameronDev@programming.dev 1 month ago
I am pretty sure there is some financial fuckery going on with BYD. My parents own two, and they are very nice, but way under priced compared to every other EV manufacturer.
Can’t prove anything of course, but there is something odd going on when everyone else is 20-30k more expensive.
Hard to feel sorry for GM though, they suckled at our governments (Australia) teet for decades before giving up and leaving entirely. At least if BYD is being propped up we are at least getting good cheap cars from it.
Ulrich@feddit.org 1 month ago
The financial fuckery is that they’re very heavily subsidized by the CCP. It’s not sustainable.
einkorn@feddit.org 1 month ago
I’d argue it is.
Just look how Amazon got where it is now: Sell way under market price, till local competition closed shop, then squeeze.
Greyghoster@aussie.zone 1 month ago
While they are subsidised, the Chinese are really good at low cost manufacturing. It’s not the cheap labour anymore but factory automation and robotics. They really outclass anyone else.
spankmonkey@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Brazil shuts BYD factory site over ‘slavery’ conditions
From 2016 and still true today:
Chinese Government Subsidies Play Major Part In Electric Car Maker BYD’s Rise
Yeah, subsidies and other benefits from governments exist but China is going all in.
CameronDev@programming.dev 1 month ago
My only point of confusion is that a 20k loss on every car is insane. I’m guessing its a bit of BYD is subsidised somewhat, and everyone else is price gouging somewhat. No idea the ratio.
Also odd that other Chinese brands (really only tried MG) dont seem to have the same high quality, high pricing that suggests the same level of crazy subsidies.
Honestly, there is just so much fuckery going I just have no idea what is what.
merde@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttu55nEtC6o - How BYD overtook Tesla?
boonhet@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
China subsidises industries it wants to dominate in, allowing them to sell for less than cost. It’s why the EU also tariffs Chinese cars.
Also for anything the big 3 make in the US, I believe they use union labor? Not sure if they did for Aussie market cars.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
defects galore
A friend of mine from high school attended the GM Institute and became an engineer for them. One of his first projects was on a team that bought a Lexus and an Infiniti when they first came on the market and took them apart to see how many production defects they had. He said a typical American car at the time (and this was in the '90s after quality had rebounded somewhat from its disastrous nadir) had 300-400 defects. The Infiniti they took apart had 2. The Lexus had 0.
funkyfarmington@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Maybe GM could, I don’t know, innovate?
sommerset@thelemmy.club 5 weeks ago
So here is the thing.
U lost. The moment I need American people to bail you out, you need to treat American people way way the fuck better.Worker rights, mandatory vacations, work protections, pensions, guaranteed healthcare etc.
thann@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
So they dont care about making cars for the world market, they just want regulations to allow them to milk the american market…
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Capitalism is all about competition unless it’s not.
MrSilkworm@lemmy.ml 1 month ago
Former GM Executive: BYD cars are better and cheaper than American. If we let BYD into the U.S. Market, we wouldn’t be able to be greedy and enshitify our products any more, which would end up destroying american car manufacturers. FTFY.
P.S. Actually the average american would be benefited from that
carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I mean, didn’t Japanese and Korean automakers already do that?
zeca@lemmy.eco.br 1 month ago
So when can we stop with this “free markets” nonsense in the third world aswell??
wosat@lemmy.world 1 month ago
I don’t disagree with the criticisms of American cars – overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. – but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker’s comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.
qyron@sopuli.xyz 1 month ago
I don’t give two cents for the american auto brands but spare me the drama: try and make a proper car.
Looking at Ford: try importing a few models from the european line and offer it in the states. Small, economic, somewhat reliable, fuel efficient cars.
Stellantis has a slew of models that could be brought into the american market. They make good cars.
And I’m willing to bet GM as a few models they build and market overseas that would be guaranteed sucesses.
PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 1 month ago
First the enshittified the food
Then the health care
Then every consumer product
Finally they enshittified the nation itself
RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Six months ago I moved from the US to a country where BYD and other Chinese brands are available. In the past I owned GM cars. The former GM executive is correct. After trying Chinese cars I find it extremely difficult to justify paying 40-60% more for a car made by GM or anyone else.
Deflated0ne@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.
Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can’t compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren’t made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.
whotookkarl@lemmy.world 1 month ago
No shit, people want cheap, reliable transport and workers would want to build them, build and work on replacement parts, build batteries, etc. The only people supported by blocking BYD in the US are executives and shareholders.
network_switch@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
Tariffs be damned, I will not buy an American brand car. They’ve been mediocre my whole life and it’s always been easier to source parts for Hondas and Toyotas. I’m not sure how repairable any EV is, but I doubt American brands will top the charts of value in repairability in my lifetime
floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
Where free market? It will regulate itself /s
Fedditor385@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
American manufacturing seems very incapable of change. If things worked this way for decades, why change it? Meanwhile the world moved on and they ask themselves why doesn’t anyone wanna buy american…?
kemsat@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
melsaskca@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
But it would also help american people. Which is more important, I wonder.
UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Meanwhile, instead of trying to compete they cripple all EV advancement to make a quick buck on fossil fuel.
sturmblast@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Good, let’s do it. I’m tired of our tax money keeping shitty car companies floating.
Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 1 month ago
So free markets are a terrible idea now and countries practicing import substitution weren’t impoverishing their people.
US hypocrisy at it’s finest.
latenightnoir@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 month ago
Our free market’s good, yours is the problem!
CosmoNova@lemmy.world 1 month ago
„Free market“? Speaking of hypocrisy. Chinese car brands are so heavily subsidized they probably cost the Chinese economy more than they make selling them at the moment. China is clearly trying to drown the global market with cheap cars so they can ramp up prices immensely once they have killed the competition and have become a monopoly. China hasn‘t been the extreme low income country to produce super cheaply for a long time and they couldn‘t produce cars this cheap in a free market situation.
Many countries and the EU have measures against such practices because state run operations with the sole purpose to destroy an industry (which this is) undermine the very idea of the free market or even trade relationships.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers and play the same little game China is playing but more cars is honestly the last thing we need right now. Tariffs are a much smoother option to deal with this even when they have a bad rep.
Ideally we use that generated money from tariffs to subsidize public transport so we don‘t get cheaper cars but cheaper alternatives but that‘s still just a dream I‘m afraid.
Whatever the case, one should look at super cheap cars and what that means in the long run more critically.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
We have been. Bailout after bailout. For the longest fucking time, and have had insane trade rules and tarrigs in place for decades and decades. I’d argue this is what another country finally being able to play on a level playing field.
Tiger666@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
We have subsidized the big three many times, and they return nothing back. At this point, they should be nationalized.
You have a very simple way of looking at things and are part of the problem that is going on.
Your ignorance is showing. Tuck it in.
BB84@mander.xyz 1 month ago
If something is being so heavily subsidized, the correct market response is to buy as much as possible, and resell once the prices ramp up.
Setting up tariffs and complaining about subsidies? 100% not the “free market” response. It’s cope.
IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world 1 month ago
It’s not a free market.
BYD is heavily subsidized .
FireRetardant@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Pretty sure big oil and car companies have been bailed out by the US government in the past. Plus america designs most of its cities so that you need to own a car. Seems like both markets are equally “free” at the end of the day.
Akasazh@feddit.nl 1 month ago
American car makers famously unsubsidized and holding up their own pants.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Free markets were always a terrible idea, the USA economic system was basically founded on principles of regulation of goods like tea, tobacco, and alcohol.