Oh yeah? And what if someone ignores that, simply lies and says it’s toxic? I’m convinced!
flouride
Submitted 5 months ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/2899d87d-e2c8-4577-b753-ada80242cccf.png
Comments
beebarfbadger@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Brickhead92@lemmy.world 5 months ago
And both of these people telling me about fluoride in water are both experts in their field. One an expert toxicologist, and the other an expert liar. Now I don’t know what to believe.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
The fluoride added to water gets it up to 0.7mg/liter.
That ends up to be 2 or 3 drops in a 55 gallon drums worth of water. Not much.
Fluoride is a natural substance and is found in many areas drinking water already. Many areas in much higher concentrations than 0.7mg/liter, so realistically people all over the world have drank fluoridated water for thousands of years.
You have to well over double the 0.7 before any health issues may appear and the first to appear is at about triple the concentration in kids under 8 years old who drink it for years getting spots on their teeth. The spots are only superficial.
Going into concentrations even higher than that CAN cause health issues when drank for longer periods of time. All of those cases being from naturally occurring fluoride, which actually effects somewhere north of 20% of the world’s population.
Which makes the argument that fluoride in our water keeps us passive as being extra stupid, since water sourced around Columbia (the country) is far higher than .07mg/liter and Columbia seems to be caught in violence and turmoil and instability quite a bit over the decades.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Its presence in groundwater is how we discovered it’s good for teeth.
In fact, there used to be so much in some areas,it actually stained the teeth. In Colorado Springs a dentist noticed that the children were developing brown stains on their teeth. In researching it, it was discovered that the “Colorado Brown Stain” was caused by excessive fluoride in the drinking water. But it also lead to the discovery that regions with natural fluoride present but in lower levels than Colorado Springs didn’t have stained teeth, but did have lower levels of tooth decay.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
Yep. In fact, 21% of the world’s natural drinking water used falls within the recommended range for fluoride, while over another 20% is higher and in some countries actually does cause some non-superficial side effects and problems. Those don’t pop up until in concentrations at least 3 times higher than recommended.
Reyali@lemm.ee 5 months ago
Small note: the country name is spelled “Colombia,” and spelling it correctly means you don’t need to specify which one!
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
Fair enough!
BussyCat@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Just because a concentration is low doesn’t mean it’s safe. Water with 0.7 mg/L of Po-210 is lethal.
You can put an amount of it in a 55 gallon drum that is not visible
It’s a natural substance
Fluoride is in fact safe at the amounts that the FDA regulates but saying it’s a small concentration or that it’s natural are not the reasons it’s safe. It’s the hundreds of peer reviewed research articles that show that it’s safe
solarvector@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 months ago
It’s not about toxicity, it’s about mind control! Fluoride makes you passive. But you know this since you’re a tool of the government pushing poison.
Just bleach your teeth like normal people! You know, with the bleach under the kitchen sink.
(Don’t actually do this)
chillBurner@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
Like the ol’ General said / s
We can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face.
pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
I mean, trump got reelected. I hope it’s the flouride.
mkwt@lemmy.world 5 months ago
And that’s why you should only drink grain alcohol and pure, natural reason water. To preserve the essence of your precious bodily fluids.
</s>
Luvs2Spuj@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Eating seeds as a pasttime activity
BreadOven@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I’ve heard it works much better and actually reverses the mind control if you first mix the bleach with ammonia.
(Also, please, don’t actually do this, some people still die every year from this)
Lemminary@lemmy.world 5 months ago
The real Chads use raw organic free-range non-GMO pesticide-free lemon juice with baking soda. It’ll leave your teeth as white as they’ll be sensitive! Keep it crunchy. You’re welcome.
walden@sub.wetshaving.social 5 months ago
Toxicologist, toxicity, minuscule, fluoridated – your big doctor words are just trying to trick us!
AeonFelis@lemmy.world 5 months ago
So, once again, DHMO is the chemical we need to fear.
bradinutah@thelemmy.club 5 months ago
The stuff also known as hydric acid. People just don’t talk enough about how corrosive it is. Plus, it gets in the air and gets in your lungs!
valkyre09@lemmy.world 5 months ago
There was an incident involving it on April 14th 1912 that took over 1500 lives.
BussyCat@lemmy.world 5 months ago
It’s 10 million times more acidic than drain cleaner!!! And the government is trying to force you to drink it by forcing it to be used in municipal drinking fountains
TehWorld@lemmy.world 5 months ago
It’s so pervasive that they have found it in the bodies of every single child worldwide.
Hamartia@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Any chemical that can exist as a solid, a liquid and a gas at the same time isn’t safe to put into our bodies!
BreadOven@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Fun fact. Literally everyone who has died, ever, has had DHMO in some form. You’re even exposed in the womb!
Rookwood@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Fluoridated water doesn’t seem to make a difference on cavities. It does have neurological effects. It’s simply not acutely fatal. It’s already in our toothpaste. We don’t need it in our municipal water supply and the majority of developed countries don’t.
heraplem@leminal.space 5 months ago
Counterpoint: I live in an area without fluoridated water, and I’m told that dentists can reliably identify people who didn’t grow up here by the state of their teeth.
ryannathans@aussie.zone 5 months ago
Anecdote in scientific debate? Wild
gofsckyourself@lemmy.world 5 months ago
This is a disingenuous take. This is a cherry-picked article that does not come to the conclusion you draw here. You also state “It does have neurological effects” but leave out the most important piece of information for that to be true: high doses.
Why should anyone trust what you say when you’re twisting the information to suit your narrative?
sleen@lemmy.zip 5 months ago
I appreciate that you put some reputable sources, rather than relying on a random tweet/post.
Ahrotahntee@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
Keep in mind that they listed Canada as having non-flouride water, presumably based on the sole criteria that it’s not a national requirement. The split between communities with and without flouride in their water varies wildly by province.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
It’s an opinion piece by a geneticist (so not a chemist or biologist or a field that could be related) and she ignores all the direct evidence that every city and county that added fluoride started having fewer cavities than neighboring areas that hadn’t yet added it.
She then further points out that it only causes health issues in much higher concentrations than what the US was getting our water supply up to. You know, like literally anything that you get too much of is bad for you. You can literally die from drinking too much plain water. Too much of anything will kill you.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
Your link is more or less an opinion piece from a geneticist, so this isn’t even her field of study.
All her health issues she points out are for fluoride concentrations over triple the amount that tap water is brought up to.
The reason it’s usage spread across the country was because while the entire country had access to things such as fluoridated toothpaste, counties and cities that started fluoridation of their water supplies consistently had fewer cavities than areas that didn’t fluoridate the water. This alone outlines the glaringly obvious flaw in her argument.
Further still, while the US adds fluoride to the tap water in a concentration to reach 0.5mg to 0.7mg per liter of water (a couple drops per 50 gallons), natural drinking water for over 20% of the world is in concentrations well over that (to be clear, being well over that can cause health issues. Too much of anything can cause health issues.)
In other words, there is no evidence that this low concentration of fluoride causes health issues. There is loads of direct evidence that it reduces cavities. Plus, this woman from your opinion piece is talking out of her field. Not to mention that 21% of the world’s drinking water supply naturally already falls within the recommended range of what the US takes theirs up to. It’s just that most of the US water supply naturally falls below that amount.
finderscult@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
No, the reason fluoridation in water is widespread is because fluoride is produced far more than there is market to sell it otherwise.
Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Only 3% of Quebec’s population has access to fluoridated water and we have way more dental issues than any other province in Canada.
Greyghoster@aussie.zone 5 months ago
Interesting. The article doesn’t actually say that fluoridation in water supplies is dangerous but that some researchers are questioning. Generally code for lack of scientific evidence. It also finds that early studies may have had a flawed basis (pretty much all early studies have been found wanting by later scientists) but doesn’t refute the results.The study mentioned in the article talks about high levels of fluoridation which I assume is in lab tests however these levels are not the case in water supplies.
The correct way forward is more actual science based studies.
Ramblingman@lemmy.world 5 months ago
The bad part about Rfk jr is he probably mixes in some science with quackery. I honestly assumed all his ideas are insane. That’s what’s so hard about being discerning right now, you have to be on one side or the other.
aeternum@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 months ago
Yeah but I read an article on a bullshit website. I think some no name website knows more than a toxicologist
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Why is some dumb scientist expert trying to tell me, a person who pays for an internet connection, what the truth is?
Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Because something something shill money.
4oreman@lemy.lol 5 months ago
This is a conspiracy by fluoridians.
Itdidnttrickledown@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Thats what the fluoridiots say.
thesmokingman@programming.dev 5 months ago
I want someone who knows about these things to respond to this 2012 metastudy that ties naturally fluoridated groundwater to neurological problems. I have used this the past decade to say “well the science is unclear;” I found it back then (2013 at the latest) when I was trying to disprove a crank and really questioned my shit. There was a(n unrelated?) follow up later that questioned the benefits. Since this is very far from my area of expertise, I’m not championing these; I just want to understand why they’re wrong or at least don’t matter in the discourse.
sudoer777@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
dihydrogen monoxide is also dangerous, we must ban it as well
Heavybell@lemmy.world 5 months ago
The people who need to hear this sadly would not believe that too much water can kill you even if you showed them someone die from it, I fear. I’d also be shocked if they read “water poisoning” and didn’t think of poisoned water.
wolfshadowheart@leminal.space 5 months ago
Back when I was in college, people didn’t like fluoride because it calcifies the pinneal gland. I assume that rhetoric has only been further exaggerated over the years
Corno@lemm.ee 5 months ago
affiliate@lemmy.world 5 months ago
i know this guy has a fancy degree and everything, but is he really as reliable a source as rfk junior? you don’t need fluoride when you have an army of worms ready to eat any kinds of bacteria that may enter your system.
Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I feel like I woke up in the movie Dr. Strangelove
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
I believe the objection to fluoride is that it is a tranquilizer that keeps us from achieving glory through violent uprising… or sweet sweet dentist profits.
sit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 months ago
Toxicity is a big word. What about small long term effects?
Lithium is prohibited in eu outside of psychiatric therapy, too. But it might be an essential nutrient (small doses).
My trust into the official narrative is limited.
satans_methpipe@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Agreed but can we turn down the chloramine valve? It tastes awful.
Joker@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Great post… but where is the meme?
madjo@feddit.nl 5 months ago
For what’s it worth, in my country (Netherlands), we don’t add fluoride to our tap water anymore since the early 70s. We just have it in our toothpaste (though you can also get fluoride free toothpaste for those who don’t want it).
Sure there’s still traces of fluoride in our water, as it appears in nature. But it’s not artificially added by our water companies.
Allero@lemmy.today 5 months ago
The question to me is - do we even have to fluoridate water and is this really the best approach?
For example, most European countries do not commonly use fluoride in their water supply, and everyone’s just fine! No extra cavities, no special health risks. People commonly drink tap water and do not care about potential for any adverse effects, because it’s just that - clean water. And for any teeth-related issues, you already have your toothpaste providing more than enough fluorine.
RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 5 months ago
How much oatmeal would I have to eat to die of fluoride poisoning?
Icecreamface@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
If democrats proposed this idea everyone would love it. Fuck trump but removing fluoride from the water is a good idea .
MidnightPocket@hexbear.net 5 months ago
I had the misfortune of eavesdropping on a conversation recently where some guy who was working in a bourgeoisie brewing facility recently switched jobs to work at a waste water treatment center and he was advocating for removing fluoride from water with a level of rationale that I have to assume he picked up from co-workers parroting information they heard on the Joe Rogan podcast.
ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 5 months ago
but what about my precious bodily fluids?!?
intensely_human@lemm.ee 5 months ago
Lemminologist here:
the fluoride levels vary because that’s how numbers do in reality
Gingerlegs@lemmy.world 5 months ago
the people that need to hear this will never believe you.
zephorah@lemm.ee 5 months ago
Next headline will be how fluoride contributes to autism and it will have just as much evidence as the vaccine bit does. How is this even a thing? Is ground zero on this RFK?
Meanwhile, all the people who can’t afford dentists will have even worse teeth going forward. Make America’s teeth British again.
cikano@lemmy.world 5 months ago
But what about our precious bodily fluids?
RQG@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Toxicologist here. I think that take is dishonest or dumb.
Taking a lethal dose is almost never the concern with any substance in our drinking water.
Hormones, heavy metals, persistent organic chemicals, ammonia are all in our drinking water. But for all of them we can’t drink enough water to die from a high dose.
Some of them still have a large effect on our bodies.
It’s about the longterm effects. Which longterm studies to learn about. That makes them harder to study.
Still doesn’t mit flouride does anything bad longerm. But the argument is bad.
RobotToaster@mander.xyz 5 months ago
Yeah, by this argument lead in the water isn’t a concern.
Hylactor@sopuli.xyz 5 months ago
You just made me mad by helping me realize that the Trump bros are going to break water by removing fluoride long before they fix water by removing lead.
5oap10116@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Yeah but lead bioaccumulates where as fluoride/ine doesn’t
Ferrous@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
Yup, same with PFAS and forever chemicals. Maybe I’m ignorant because I’m not a doctor, but I don’t know if this line of thinking holds water - pun not intended.
reptar@lemmy.world 5 months ago
lead poisoning becomes evident pretty early though doesn’t it? (With respect to kids)
I would think that the ratio of persistent exposure to unsafe level has got to be easily higher in cases like Flint than any fluoride-in-the-water usage. Just speculation on my part.
What measures are taken to avoid screwing up the dosage, anyone know? Maybe predilute so that an oops requires multiple buckets instead of vials?
NeverNudeNo13@lemmings.world 5 months ago
It’s so funny I was just having a similar conversation about neurotoxic venomous animals in another thread. Lethality is an obviously concerning threshold, but there are substances out there that can easily destroy your quality of life and livelihood that never reach the concern of being lethal.
I think for mostly rational people concerned about fluoride in their water is that it was a public health decision made with little to no actual science proving it’s safety or efficacy when it was first decided that they were going to add it to the public water supply. The proposed benefits of it weren’t even supported by scientific evidence, it was just supposed that exposure to sodium fluoride could potentially reduce tooth decay for some.
Personally, I’ve suffered from the cosmetic damage of dental fluorosis, and I’m not necessarily thrilled about fluoride. But I have way more issues with public mandates founded on pseudoscience than I am with sodium fluoride. Especially now that we can see evidence that for some people fluoride can be especially beneficial.
So what was wrong with giving people the option of using fluoride toothpaste or mouthwashes… Why did it have to go into the public water supply?
Alteon@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Mate, your entire second paragraph is completely false. Like, you need to just read this: www.nidcr.nih.gov/…/the-story-of-fluoridation
It’s considered by the CDC as one of the greatest Public Health Achievements of the last Century. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of studies about fluoride affects in the water supply.
jrubal1462@mander.xyz 5 months ago
In our area, the only water supply WITH Fluoride serves an area with a median HOUSEHOLD income of less than $40k with more than 25% living below the poverty line. For communities like these the fluoride is critical because there will be a lot of children that don’t have access to fluoride supplements, or regular care from a pediatric (or regular) dentist.
ryannathans@aussie.zone 5 months ago
Fluoride does have long term effects though once you consider fluoride exposure through all sources like diet, which is mostly due to fluoride from water ending up in farmland
we_avoid_temptation@lemmy.zip 5 months ago
Citation needed
refalo@programming.dev 5 months ago
It is when you’re responding to people who think 5G is turning the frogs gay and activating hidden vaccine microchips.
Pulptastic@midwest.social 5 months ago
We probably have enough A/B data now to make some inferences yeah? Compare countries with fluoridated water to countries without.
jrubal1462@mander.xyz 5 months ago
You can get even more granular than that. CDC maintains a list of water systems and whether or not they add fluoride. CDC My Water System. To give you an idea of how granular that is, there are 78 different water systems in my county alone. For most of my life I assumed we had fluoridated water but apparently only 1/78 of our water systems are. I only checked when we had kids and I needed to know whether or not I needed to give them Fluoride Drops.
refalo@programming.dev 5 months ago
yes and some of that data is already in other comments here
observes_depths@aussie.zone 5 months ago
This. How can we be completely certain that something isn’t damaging over the long term. I’m not anti fluoride, but healthy debate and scepticism is a good thing, especially when we’re all forced to consume a substance with the only alternative being dehydration and death. People need to be free to make their own choices.
FreshLight@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Yeah, it seems to me like he got the right idea and wanted to convince people by making an extreme statement…
RQG@lemmy.world 5 months ago
That might well be the case. I’m not sure if it is helpful to use those half truths which are simpler to convince certain people. Or if it weakens the point because it is in the end not really correct.
Mango@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Also “because I’m an expert and I say so” is a good way to convince someone to let you poison them.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Also, isn’t it recommended to not give infants fluorided water, hence why you can buy it in virtually every grocery store?
blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 5 months ago
Pretty much anything you can think of is recommended by someone, because different people have conflicting views. The key is to choose whose recommendations are based on the best reasoning & evidence aligning with your goals.