Feds Say You Don’t Have a Right to Check Out Retro Video Games Like Library Books

Comments

• henfredemars@infosec.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Industry groups argued that those museums didn’t have “appropriate safeguards” to prevent users from distributing the games once they had them in hand.

  Good grief. Some of these games have been on the Internet longer than I have been alive. They are 100-fucking-percent already available on ROM sites. You’re just shitting on people’s enjoyment for the sake of shitting.

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  • ogeist@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Industry groups argued that those museums didn’t have “appropriate safeguards” to prevent users from distributing the games once they had them in hand.

    So libraries are also illegal? Books, DVDs, VHS, CDS, etc. You can replace games with any of those.

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    • bassomitron@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      They’ve been actively fighting libraries over the years, with renewed fervor in the last decade. As numerous others have pointed out before–including the article I linked–if libraries hadn’t already been such a long-standing concept for centuries, they would 100% not be allowed to come into existence nowadays. Hyper greed has poisoned every facet of modern society.

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    • ArgentRaven@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      We used to rent these games from Blockbuster Video! On DVD when we had DVD burners and little to no drm! How did it suddenly not become acceptable?

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  • MIDItheKID@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Industry groups argued that those museums didn’t have “appropriate safeguards” to prevent users from distributing the games once they had them in hand.

    And what exactly is stopping me from scanning library books and uploading them online? Are you going to ban libraries too?

    Actually, let’s not give them ideas.

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    • henfredemars@infosec.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      They would love to ban libraries.

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  • el_bhm@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Physical books have no safeguards from photocopying.

    I have more terrifying news about museums. We are talking pictures worth MILLIONS just waiting to be photographed.

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  • magikmw@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Wait till they hear of scanners and copy machines. The books aren’t safe either!

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    • Bazoogle@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Even worse. I’ve checked out digital eBooks and digital audiobooks from my local library. And I listened to those audiobooks for FUN. The AUDACITY!

      Audacity is what I used to record those audiobooks so I could listen at my own pace, btw.

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• CosmoNova@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Read a comment a while ago that if libraries weren’t a thing today and someone would propose them, the FBI would be on their ass and stalk after them for even suggesting such radical views. Copyright law is utterly broken and a disservice to society in it’s current form and execution. Politicians need to get their fat fingers out of the stock market by law.

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  • tehn00bi@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I really feel like the source code needs to be released after 25 years. We need to be able to protect older games.

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    • wavebeam@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’ve been saying that we need to have a law on the books to require any online components of a game be required to have the source to those features be released upon closure of the online service. I would be fine with them then being except from any security liability for anyone who gets hacked by use of that software and even retaining ownership of the IP, so no one could sell access to the service, but being able to stand up fan-run servers for old Xbox-live games or dead MMOs more easily would be really great. I’m locked out of so many PlayStation trophies simply because online servers have been down for ages now.

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    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      There’s often no in any way complete source code after 25 years.

      Media degrade, get forgotten hell knows where, get occasionally destroyed.

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  • turkalino@lemmy.yachts ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    archive.org is the modern proposal of a library, and yeah, look what’s happened to them

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• GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  That’s cool. Won’t really stop any of the shit that’s been happening though.

  Good luck corpos, for every pirate you take away ten more will take their place.

  hack the planet

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  • Fuzzy_Red_Panda@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    They’re trashing our rights!

    Hack the planet!

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    • rowinxavier@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Trashing!

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  • Fredselfish@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Guess I don’t understand, are they saying places Like Vintage Stock that sells old games illegal? Or are they talking about digital backups of these games. Regardless fuck them and the copyright office. This makes me want to pirate more not less.

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    • noodlejetski@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      luckily there’s more details to read when you click the link.

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    • Bazoogle@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I answered your question on another thread of the same topic, but I’ll answer it here too for anyone else who has the same question: The law is just about digital backups. Vintage stores are still legal, and if anything this would boost sales at a vintage stores. If the game you’d like to play is unavailable at a vintage store or on eBay (or wherever else) then it will be entirely inaccessible for you to play legally.

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  • LavenderDay3544@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    This isn’t even targeting pirates it’s targeting legitimate users. If anything, this will create more pirates.

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• mPony@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  FTA

  Industry groups argued that those museums didn’t have “appropriate safeguards” to prevent users from distributing the games once they had them in hand. They also argued that there’s a “substantial market” for older or classic games, and a new, free library to access games would “jeopardize” this market. Perlmutter agreed with the industry groups.

  So as long as someone, somewhere, might make a penny off of them, they can’t be free. Insert your own metaphor here.

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  • zarenki@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    This argument is even more ridiculous than it seems. During the copyright office hearing for this exemption request (back in April), the people arguing in favor of libraries talked about the measures they have in place. They don’t just let people download a ROM to use in any emulator they please. It’s not even one of those browser-based emulators where you can pull the ROM data out of your browser cache if you know how. It’s a video stream of an emulator running on a server managed by the library, with plenty enough latency to make it very clearly a worse gaming experience.

    It’s far easier to find ROMs of these games elsewhere than it is to contact a librarian and ask for access to a protected collection, so there’d be no reason to redistribute the files even if they were offered, which they aren’t.

    On top of that, this exemption request was explicitly limited to old games that have been long unavailable on the market in any form, which seems like an insane limitation to put on libraries, places that have always held collections of books both new and old.

    All of that is still not enough to sate the US Copyright Office, the ESA, AACS, or DVD CSS. Those three were the organizations that fought against this.

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  • BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s been demonstrated multiple times that when you make access easy and affordable people will pay for it over pirating it.

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  • Pulptastic@midwest.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The same logic would apply to books. ::gestures at library::

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    • Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      There is a difference there in that these are digital copies (easy to make more copies) vs physical books (hard to make more copies).

      That said, the only reason this is an issue is copyright lasts too long on relatively short lived games.

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  • kent_eh@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    They also argued that there’s a “substantial market” for older or classic games, and a new, free library to access games would “jeopardize” this market. Perlmutter

    And if that market demand isn’t being catered to, or is being actively refused to be served, is there any wonder people are finding other ways to get that stuff?

    All they’re doing is hoarding this old software and preventing its use based on the speculation that they might eventually figure out a way to profit from long gone developers work.

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    • Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It’s such bullshit it makes me want to start selling those knockoff consoles just purely out of spite.

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• dubyakay@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It sounds like the problem is not with the feds but with the DMCA. It needs to be overturned.

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  • eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    “Sounds like the problem is federal law pushed by Congressmen paid for by corporate lobbyists, not the federal government.”

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    • dubyakay@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Aka. regulatory capture

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  • the_crotch@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The dmca is a federal law, it is the feds.

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  • FreakinSteve@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Judging by the responses in here, it sounds like gamers need to quit and find something else to do

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• uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Feds are wrong, or would be if copyright continued to serve its original purpose (according to the Constitution of the United States) to create a robust public domain.

  All media should be accessible through public libraries, and arguments by federal courts presumes that the public does not have vested interest in content. It presumes the government isn’t there to serve the public, which raises questions as to why we have government in the first place.

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  • FreakinSteve@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    This is the kind of fucking bullshit that creates assholes like trump and rfk jr.

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    • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      IMHO, RFK jr is pro environment and anti big phama. He changes his policies based on fashion more than money. He is populist, not corporatist.

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  • timetraveller@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    So weird because as a kid, I would rent these video games day 1 from the local library… free of charge.

    What is the issue now that they are retro. Shame.

    Thankful to have all mine… back… up… and running.

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  • LovableSidekick@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Correctamundo! Intellectual property law is yet another thing that needs reform. I don’t even like the term “intellectual property”. It’s a modern invention. People with copyrights have always been copyright holders. You hold exclusive rights for a limited time, because the public agrees to let you. The IP industry has done a very effective job at converting everybody to thinking of rights as property and infringement as theft. We need to return to the original concept.

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• cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  People will just continue pirating those games then.

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  • Bazoogle@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The most popular games will likely continue to get pirated, all this will do is guarantee that some small vintage games are lost to time.

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• stoy@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Federal law does not apply to me as a Swede in Sweden.

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  • 0x0@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Nor I, as a sovereign citizen in the United States.

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    • conc@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’m not downloading it, the bits are travelling to my hard drive.

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    • TheOctonaut@mander.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I do not wish to enjoinder with your Game Launcher and anonymous telephony

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    • PriorityMotif@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The concept of the sovereign citizen makes sense. You never consented to the laws you’re being held to. You’re forced into this system with no other options. Of course only people who have committed crimes and lost their drivers license and etc. try to evoke their weird ideas in court. But how is that any different than the laws and standards they’re being held to? Laws are written by politicians, some of the dumbest people in our society, heavily influenced by the wealthy. Laws are enforced only at the lowest levels, against people just struggling to survive to “protect the social order” it might as well be the Indian caste system. Laws are wildly unfair and applied excessively to the average person.

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    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      First time I see something like this net upvoted. Mood improved.

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  • LavenderDay3544@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    But likewise Swedish law doesn’t apply to us Americans in America.

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  • x00z@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I think Sweden has federal laws too.

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    • lud@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      No, just laws.

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    • stoy@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Sweden is not a federation, why would we have federal laws?

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    • Klear@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Do we have a shitamericanssay community already?

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• wavebeam@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  They’re right. I have been using old videos games for recreation. Too bad that they’ve decided to prevent me from paying for the privilege or at least being tracked through library usage and have instead decided it’d be better if I was just an untrackable “criminal”

  Either way, I’m enjoying these old games and living my life guilt free.

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  • Bazoogle@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You’d better not also be reading books for fun. By their logic, any recreational use of books from a library should also be considered illegal.

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    • postmateDumbass@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Only legal for educationale, reproduction, or ownin dem libs. (sic.)

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  • rottingleaf@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    There’s no such thing as untrackable.

    The feeling of being a completely honest and lawful citizen was really nice at some point, buying games in Steam, GOG or just bookstores, too bad it was mostly gaslighting and they were not going to be honest with us.

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  • FreakinSteve@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The purpose of the US government is to create as many criminals as possible to put in gulags and sell into slavery. That has ALWAYS been the history of the US. There has NEVER been any “freedom” involved. Oh, Bill of Rights, you say?..NONE of them stop what I just laid out.

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• Vaggumon@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Yo ho ho and fuck the police

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  • TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    In this case it’s the corporate lawyers and lawmakers setting these precedents, not the police.

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  • xavier666@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I too travel the seven seas for hidden loot ⛵

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• Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  OK, I’ll download them then.

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• reddig33@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  “Fair Use” is a thing. Someone needs to go back to law school.

  en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

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  • seaQueue@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Pearson is trying really fucking hard to write that out of the public consciousness. I took an econ 101 class about 12y ago for funsies and the section of the course on copyright insisted that “the rights of publishers” were absolute with no exemptions.

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    • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Of course, it’s in their best interests to falsely educate.

      IMO when it comes to educational books that are intended to be used within an educational system like a college, first amendment shouldn’t apply. The entire purpose is to educate the public your freedom of speech interferes with facts. Should it be found that your books consciously represented misinformation, the company is automatically found at fault and must recall then replace all books at their own cost and be fined tens of thousands of dollars per book that remains after five years.

      Should they fail to replace 80% of all sold books within those 5 years, the entire chain of command responsible will face prison terms no lower than one year.

      There were so many textbooks I had through my years of education that were blatantly wrong.

      I’m also looking at those schools who want to teach creationism in place of evolution. Can’t misrepresent facts when the books you can use get recalled.

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    • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Bet you read that in a textbook

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    • desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      how do the rights of the copyright holders interact with CCTV?

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  • lud@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

    1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
    2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
    3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
    4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

    I’m no lawyer, but I can’t really find a way that fair use is applicable in this case. Also point 4 is taken into consideration here. And no I obviously don’t agree that games shouldn’t be allowed in libraries. The law should be changed. I just don’t see how fair use is relevant.

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    • reddig33@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      See also first sale doctrine:

      “Lending of physical books held by the library is permitted under the first sale doctrine. In other instances, such as making copies of articles and checking them out to students, libraries may rely on fair use to justify course reserves. A recent landmark case related to electronic reserves is Cambridge v. Patton, in which a group of publishers sued Georgia State University for their liberal e-reserves policy. The courts held GSU to be the prevailing party, finding fair use in the majority of alleged infringements”

      guides.library.oregonstate.edu/…/libraries#:~:tex….

      See also Ben Franklin:

      smithsonianmag.com/…/how-ben-franklin-invented-li…

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• PlainSimpleGarak@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Fine. I’ll start my own library. With external storage, and ROMS.

  Wait I’m already doing that.

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• MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The irony!

  Image

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  • ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Hey now…we all of course only have copies of our own blurays and DVDs on our home media servers.

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• JoeKrogan@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Sharing is caring

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• kaffiene@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  And thus. Again, piracy seems to be the moral choice

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• Hackworth@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Shithole country.

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• Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  insane takeover of the public square here.

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• SplashJackson@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Land of the Free, everybody

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• umbrella@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️🏴‍☠️

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• RangerJosie@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Oh yeah? ~reaches for feathered Tricorn~

  You don’t say? ~shifts buckaneer coat across shoulders~

  No, you don’t mean that? ~straps on pistol/saber belt~

  Why would you say such a thing ya daft cunt ? ~quote by nearby African Grey Parrot~

  youtu.be/gP9qaDhcSwQ?si=fXLBBjA0VxJeHcja

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• m3t00@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  good emulators out there. haven’t tried any lately

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• Kolanaki@yiffit.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Does this mean my library isn’t allowed to have games you can check out anymore? It’s been doing that (and other things that aren’t books) for at least a decade now.

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• EnderMB@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The problem with these fundamental rulings is that they’re largely trying to fit square objects through round holes. When a simple ruling is made to essentially say “to current law, no”, the law itself ultimately becomes meaningless, because older games couldn’t be easier to pirate. Most of them are smaller than a TikTok video, and are so cheap/easy to host that you’ll never stop them from being shared. Hell, emulation has come so far that you can effectively emulate these games on a browser, on multiple devices, even devices that don’t natively support gaming.

  The smart thing to do would be to say that maybe the legal framework that embodies retro gaming needs to be researched and heavily considered. It’s a hard task that’ll require many lawyers, many fights, and lots of lobbying to ensure the word of law is worth something. Sadly, it’s easier to say “lol no” and to essentially just promote piracy.

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• mm_maybe@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Well, maybe we need a movement to make physical copies of these games and the consoles needed to play them available in actual public libraries, then? That doesn’t seem to be affected by this ruling and there’s lots of precedent for it in current practice, which includes lending of things like musical instruments and DVD players. There’s a business near me that does something similar, but they restrict access by age to high schoolers and older, and you have to play the games there; you can’t rent them out.

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• NutWrench@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I’m glad I keep backup copies of anything that might be important later on, like the 40 gig MAME Rom library.

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• nucleative@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I could lend out my old computer with old games installed to somebody else to use, right?

  What if instead i lend my hard drive, is it still the same thing? Or what if I lend out my remote access screen sharing password to my old PC. Still the same?

  Maybe the legal workaround is to game the system here a bit - forget downloading executables which feels a lot like pirating and just lend access to a system that is legally running the original license.

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• Telorand@reddthat.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Alright. Now enforce it. Good luck with that.

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• Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  How does a 1998 law have retroactive rights over previously published works?

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• Sam_Bass@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  basically “dont wanna pay us? fuck off”

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