I think that that can be generalized to:
“When <cloud-connected device company> shuts down, will their <product> still work?”
When EV startups shut down, will their cars still work?
Submitted 2 months ago by True@lemy.lol to technology@lemmy.world
https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/
Comments
tal@lemmy.today 2 months ago
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Yup, that’s why I don’t buy that crap. I would love an EV, but they all seem to spy on their drivers and I’m concerned that all that spyware isn’t properly protected anyway.
An EV really shouldn’t be all that complicated, and there’s zero reason for it to connect to the outside world. All it needs to do is:
- charge the battery
- regulate the battery’s temperature
- discharge the battery to make it go
None of that requires power, and that whole process is much simpler than my ICE car, which doesn’t have any external communication either. Give me an EV without all the smart crap and I’ll probably buy it.
perviouslyiner@lemmy.world 2 months ago
That’s not an EV issue that’s a modern car issue. One of the worst privacy risks was Buick which didn’t even make EVs.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I got bad news about ICE cars made in the past decade.
viking@infosec.pub 2 months ago
Yep, and precisely why I refuse to buy anything that requires an internet connection to work. I’m even wary of services that lock me in for longer than maybe 6 months. The only annual subscription I have is for my VPN.
An actual device/machine that I plan to use for years? Hell no. Offline only is a must have.
T156@lemmy.world 2 months ago
A car is also difficult to ignore, compared to something smaller.
A small expensive device that stopped working because the company shut it down is annoying, but you can at least put it to the side and ignore it.
You can’t really do that to a car that has functionally become a paperweight because the parent company has gone under.
DJDarren@thelemmy.club 2 months ago
This was really thrown into sharp focus for me a couple of years back, when I read an article about how people with ocular implants are being left to go blind again because the company who made their implant has been bought by another company who doesn’t want to continue support.
I just can’t think about how callous that is, and if a company doesn’t give a shit about that, why would they give a shit about a car?
Dariusmiles2123@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Never heard about it but it sounds crazy.
Rinox@feddit.it 2 months ago
I really hope some massive EV startup goes under and bricks thousands of cars. It might be the last straw that forces lawmakers to regulate services shutting down (keep providing the service or open source all your code so that some else can keep providing that service)
Aceticon@lemmy.world 2 months ago
One thing is the risk that your device might become a paperweight with $300 smartwatches or home automation systems, another is to have them with $30,000 cars.
The problem is not that there is a risk, the problem is how much more money is at stake from that kind of risk when such risks apply to cars.
Rationally there should be a lot more consumer protection rules on thing were people have to work years to earn enough to buy them than in things that cost the income of a few days or weeks of work, at the very least the kind of information forcing the full disclosure upfront to customers of such risks and their consequences (if a brand’s electric car will literaly become a paper-weight once support from the manufacturer end, that should be shown in every advert for that product using a really large font).
0x0@programming.dev 2 months ago
because they have a long life
Not as long as it could be and that’s intentional. My '97 piece of crap will outlive most EVs anv even most new ICEs.
femtech@midwest.social 2 months ago
Evs will outlast ice cars as there are less moving parts. All we need now is 3rd party car battery replacement as a standard.
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 months ago
Ever drive in a car with a big screen from like 10+ years ago that has the most outdated, useless UI?
Now imagine that’s your whole car.
Psythik@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I miss the days when the radio was its own separate thing in a car. Hate the outdated UI? Just replace the radio head unit with a modern one.
Nowadays it’s a lot more difficult. There is a module called iDatalink Maestro that allows you to still maintain most factory features after replacing your head unit, but a lot of cars tend to be incompatible—especially EVs—as more and more features become integrated into the stereo. The days of modular components in cars is nearing an end.
SSJMarx@lemm.ee 2 months ago
The days of modular components in cars is nearing an end.
It’s a shame, because with EVs especially modular everything should be a whole lot easier than ever before. I guess it took a decade and a half for governments to force smartphones to be able to be jailbroken or message one another, hopefully we see a similar evolution on EVs where these locked down features get forced onto common standards.
brianary@startrek.website 2 months ago
Especially EVs, or especially Teslas?
echodot@feddit.uk 2 months ago
You can get that experience with new cars too. Especially anything made by BMW who presumably don’t extend their craftsmanship ideals to their software.
kameecoding@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I reckon it all comes from the stupid ass tesla hype, both Hyundai Group then later VW Group came out and said they will be putting back physical buttons.
Other than that, they should also fuck off with their software, make it be able to control the functions of the car, everyone uses carplay/android auto anyway, so what’s the point of all the other stuff.
HK65@sopuli.xyz 2 months ago
Will a new anything work if the manufacturer kills off the entirely unnecessarily forced network features?
This is not an EV problem, this is an MBA grifting problem.
bigFab@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Still, as from a mechanical engineer perspective I would trust slightly more a combustion motor system to work offline rather than an electrical, where I could never know how the motor really works and relays on.
Personally I enjoy driving a 1987 bensine Ford.
HK65@sopuli.xyz 2 months ago
I also do have a degree in mech eng and electrics as well. Electrics are much, much simpler, the reason EVs have a reputation for being hard to service is that they are new and chock full of online bullshit, which is true of new ICE cars as well. If it was just the battery and the motors, it’s incredibly simple.
noxy@yiffit.net 2 months ago
The same is true of any modern ICE, you’re not exactly gonna get source code or schematics for drivetrain management
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 2 months ago
What would be more complex an electric fan, or a fan with an internal combustion engine? It’s all the add ins that make cars complex. The motors are always simple.
bad_alloc@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 months ago
Companies should be required to maintain a stash of plans and source code which is automatically released upon the company stopping operations, unless the IP is bought.
roguetrick@lemmy.world 2 months ago
unless the IP is bought
It’s always bought on liquidation. The creditors require it to be sold to legally satisfy them. What’s worse is that the IP may only be licensed in the first place.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
Novell was re-awarded OS code which it sold – a term I use based on talking to people in the room on both the seller and buyer side of the negotiation table at the time, but merely second-hand knowledge. Novell was awarded ownership as the fact of the sale became a poker chip in a US$5bn lawsuit that could be refuted to give an advantage to one adversary in that lawsuit.
Novell hasn’t done a thing with it in 20 years. The code is essentially dead because it would cost too much to restart and update.
This was how the original Unix died, and doesn’t violate your plan. Counterexampled?
SSJMarx@lemm.ee 2 months ago
The whole IP paradigm needs to change. I can accept the logic that IP needs to exist in the first place so that people who invent something can get paid (at least in our current system) - but the term should be shortened to something like five years, or if it’s going to be longer there needs to be a list of events that immediately invalidate it, including the product no longer being legally available. IP shouldn’t be able to be traded between companies like commodities, and it shouldn’t be able to be locked up to prevent it from going into the public domain.
aesthelete@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Finally people are starting to ask the questions that actually matter.
rottingleaf@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Tech folks love to put questions the way “what if someone can own you via this thing”, and normies intuitively defend against that - they feel the implication that they can be owned and not know it is an insult, while it’s just truth. They also irrationally think that a system allowing to own people is a two-edged sword while it isn’t, they kinda feel empowered by complexity they don’t know. A bit like people not having a B52 plane feel awe before it and the ordnance it can drop.
However, if you put the question like this, what happens with all those pyramids of crap when they are not maintained anymore, it may work.
roguetrick@lemmy.world 2 months ago
“im not owned! im not owned!!”, i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into a corn cob
Angry_Autist@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Yeah well I raised this question six years ago and muskrat fanbois got me banned from like four EV ‘the other site’ communities.
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Can you name one of these that exist in an EV that doesn’t exist in an ICE vehicle? The issue is the same across the board. Notice a child can build a remote control car. Nothing complicated about a battery (gas tank) and a motor. It’s the controllers to the windows, locks, on screen entertainment, wipers, sun roof, trunk/hood latches, antilock breaks, that become the worry of software/firmware being tied into
manxu@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Cars are the tip of the iceberg. What about smart home appliances, like garage door openers, or door locks? They all come with their stupid apps, and once the company is dead, suddenly your home stops working.
We really need mandatory standards: post APIs for client-server connectivity and make the connection URL configurable.
Snapz@lemmy.world 2 months ago
1000%, we need to demand minimum functionality or stop perpetuating these fucking things by purchasing flawed products from flawed companies.
bitjunkie@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Or, you know, regulate them
Yaztromo@lemmy.world 2 months ago
There are a lot of manufacturer-agnostic smart home devices out there, and with just a tiny bit of research online it’s not difficult to avoid anything that is overly tied to a cloud service. Z-wave, ZigBee, Thread/Matter devices are all locally controlled and don’t require a specific companies app or environment — it’s only really the cheapest, bottom-of-the-barrel WiFi based devices that rely on cloud services that you have to be careful of. As with anything, you get what you pay for.
Even if the Internet were destroyed tomorrow, my smart door locks would continue to function — not only are they Z-wave based (so local control using a documented protocol which has Open Source drivers available), but they work even if not “connected”. I can even add new door codes via the touchscreen interface if I wanted to.
The garage door scenario can be a bit more tricky, as there aren’t a lot of good “open” options out there. However, AFAIK all of them continue to work as a traditional garage door opener if the online service becomes unavailable. I have a smart Liftmaster garage door opener (which came with the house when we bought it), and while it’s manufacturer has done some shenanigans in regards to their API to force everyone to use their app (which doesn’t integrate with anything), it still works as a traditional non-smart garage door opener. The button in the garage still works, as does the remote on the outside of the garage, the remotes it came with, and the Homelink integration in both of our vehicles.
With my IONIQ 5, the online features while nice are mostly just a bonus. The car still drives without them, the climate control still works without being online — most of what I lose are “nice-to-have” features like remote door lock/unlock, live weather forecasts, calendar integration, and remote climate control. But it isn’t as if the car stops being drivable if the online service goes down. And besides which, so long as CarPlay and Android Auto are supported, I can always rely on them instead for many of the same functions.
Some cars have much more integration than mine — and the loss of those services may be more annoying.
ahal@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
Agreed! The most promising standard is called matter. Vote with your wallet!
tabular@lemmy.world 2 months ago
It’s not your car if someone else controls it.
simplejack@lemmy.world 2 months ago
This is not just something that can impact EVs. NFC door locks, smart infotainment, displays for gauges. None of that is EV specific these days.
These cars were clearly not designed to work without cloud connectivity and or an authenticated account. That seems bonkers. China is huge and has lots of remote areas. How were these cars going to work when they couldn’t phone home?
IMHO, a lot of cars have gone way overboard with “smart” features, but this manufacturer’s problems are the result of cutting corners and not designing for some common use cases.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
NFC door locks, smart infotainment, displays for gauges
And I don’t need any of that.
Give me a simple car and I’ll buy it.
helenslunch@feddit.nl 2 months ago
Disposable cars is where we’re headed. We allowed it with electronics, why wouldn’t we allow it with cars?
simplejack@lemmy.world 2 months ago
The ages of cars on the road has been increasing. As reliability and prices continue to go up, more and more people hold on to their cars.
T156@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Or when the network that the car relies on no longer exists. My old e-reader’s mobile connectivity no longer works because the phone company providing the service turned the 3G network off in the upgrade to 4G.
It’s just 17 years old. People tend to keep cars for about that long. What happens then? Does it just become limited to basics only, or become a big metal brick?
simplejack@lemmy.world 2 months ago
People stop paying for smart car’s online services all the time.
You typically lose access maps or only get basic offline maps without traffic and charging stations listed. You also lose the ability to use streaming apps, the ability to remotely control locks, windows, cameras and climate from your phone, stolen vehicle tracking, alarm notifications, etc.
But if you have CarPlay / Android auto, the good maps and streaming apps can be pumped in from your phone.
viking@infosec.pub 2 months ago
NFC door locks have a sliding panel with a key override. Usually a shit lock that can be opened by any amateur… One of the many reasons I don’t have one.
FierySpectre@lemmy.world 2 months ago
At least the cars can be updated (at least until the manufacturer says fuck it). A ton of those ‘smart’ devices have no such capability so when a vulnerability is found it won’t ever be fixed.
simplejack@lemmy.world 2 months ago
This is why I won’t touch a car that doesn’t have Android Auto, CarPlay, etc. I want to be able to update my audio apps and maps, even when the manufacturer decides to stop updating my head unit.
simplejack@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Probably just should said “phone key” instead of assuming NFC. It looks like a lot of these cars use other technologies to unlock without a fob.
altima_neo@lemmy.zip 2 months ago
Looking at Aging Wheels YouTube channel with his fleet of non working Weegos, the answer is no, they won’t.
kent_eh@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
A lot of his problems are also from the lack of available parts.
Which is why he has multiples of some of the orphaned cars in his fleet.
femtech@midwest.social 2 months ago
That’s why I bought an electric car from a car company. Mostly the same parts besides the drivetrain.
altima_neo@lemmy.zip 2 months ago
Yeah, but hes got 3 and none of them work. Or at least the one working one is also breaking down a lot.
0x0@programming.dev 2 months ago
That’s cool and scary but it also (mostly) applies to most new ICE cars as well.
Kbobabob@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Can you explain how? I’m at a bit of a loss how.
0x0@programming.dev 2 months ago
Most cars nowadays, EV or not, are cloud-connected and designed with build-in obsolescence.
kameecoding@lemmy.world 2 months ago
cars? what about all those charging stations that don’t have payment by card and require you to setup an account through a mobile app like what kind of cuntery is that.
blackn1ght@feddit.uk 2 months ago
A lot of car parks are becoming like this. It’s especially frustrating when you try to download the app but you have no signal and there’s no other way to pay.
kameecoding@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I checked it and remembered correctly that in the EU at least they made it mandatory to have it on chargers
The new EU regulation AFIR (Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Regulation) stipulates that fast-charging stations with an output of 50 kw or more must be equipped or retrofitted with the option of card payment with immediate effect. The AFIR came into force on 13 April 2024 and takes precedence over national laws.
LifeOfChance@lemmy.world 2 months ago
My favorite thing about that is when you fill in the required info and need an email but because you gotta enter it each time using a temporary email doesn’t work. Then you get spammed to death by them…
Squizzy@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Its an asset, it will be sold off, spun off or recovered.
tudor@lemmy.world 2 months ago
As long as the car isn’t dependent on an Internet connection or the manufacturer’s server and the ports aren’t proprietary, I think you’re good. I expect a car to have these.
AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Woah woah woah. You can’t “disrupt” the car industry without a subscription based model that can brick your hardware at a moments notice.
Michal@programming.dev 2 months ago
Why wouldn’t they? You plug it in and keep driving. It’s not any different from petrol cars.
Rinox@feddit.it 2 months ago
Unless they have a massive infotainment system that requires cloud services to work properly or the main way to access your car is the app on your phone (and other shit like this).
Also who’s gonna guarantee spare parts in case something breaks down in 5 years time? Will I be able to fix their car or will it be a paper weight?
Michal@programming.dev 2 months ago
My point was, the same applies to petrol car. They all have infotainment and need spare parts.
bitchkat@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Seeing as my car works when an internet connection is not available it will work. The bigger issue is charging networks. If Tesla went belly up, then charging on their network (L2 chargers should be fine unless they configured to not be free) would be dicey.
knobbysideup@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
I’m pissed that even non-ev vehicles make it impossible/expensive to swap out the head unit for something you like.
Mongostein@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
Im sure the budding EV home brew community will get an OS going here soon
DirkMcCallahan@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I look forward to the day when my refrigerator stops working because the company went bankrupt, or because their server was down.
frezik@midwest.social 2 months ago
Mostly, yes, but the fact that we can’t definitively say “yes” is a problem.
TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 2 months ago
Sono Sion shut down, and good luck even getting your money back. Of course and shamelessly, Sono Motors and their CEOs get to continue to cruise through it. Wait EV startups out until they release is my advice, too much of an industry and competing markets locking down the market. The only incentive to purchase into them, paying less, is also what puts them at risk.
TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 2 months ago
Will VW support Rivan owners ?
Brkdncr@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I think ford and gm have turnkey crate motors and I suspect the vehicles have the same systems. Might be fun problem to solve.
helenslunch@feddit.nl 2 months ago
Might for a while. Eventually theyll need replacement parts.
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 2 months ago
My assumption would be that they’ll work better.
The scariest part of technology is software updates.
Badeendje@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Scary to think that the answer will be no.
simplejack@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Depends on the manufacturer. A lot of American and European “smart” cars work fine without an internet connection. You need to use a key fob, and apps cloud maps or streaming apps obviously won’t work, but the basic driving, climate, and media stuff should work.
A lot of American and European cars actually kill your cloud service access if you don’t keep paying a subscription fee.
Gork@lemm.ee 2 months ago
I have zero use for a cloud connected car lol.
Badeendje@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I think they keep an IOT connection alive to get the data they need from the car, they just kill your enjoyment of it. What happens if it would truly drop, your guess is as good as mine.
And that is with vested manufacturers. With startups it could be much worse.
BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Makes you wonder about ice cars too.
AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today 2 months ago
Absolutely, in that the more software in a vehicle the more likely it is to brick once a company folds. ICE cars are less likely since they don’t have most of the software, but there are some that are computers on wheels still (and I’m sure the amount will continue to increase).
NarrativeBear@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Maybe just in terms of their electronics, such as updates and extended services.
I do wonder if things like heated seat subscription in EV’s and ICE car’s will keep functioning after the company disappears.
ShepherdPie@midwest.social 2 months ago
Yeah they’ll likely end up melting once global temperatures rise high enough.