What’s a “sovereign citizen “?

⁨170⁩ ⁨likes⁩

Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨tigerjerusalem@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨nostupidquestions@lemmy.world⁩

Came across this recently and I can barely understand what’s about.

source

Comments

Sort:hotnew top

PorradaVFR@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
People of inexplicably confident certainty that they alone have discovered legal loopholes enabling them to ignore laws they don’t like while benefitting from public services and infrastructure of a nation they assert they are not a citizen of. It’s delusional ignorance.

source
- Ep1cFac3pa1m@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I kinda wish the government would recognize their sovereignty, and make them pass through customs every time they leave their property, cut off their public utilities, make them apply for a work visa…you know, give them the full experience.
  
  source
  - Bonehead@kbin.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Don't worry...they already get their public utilities cut when the stop paying for them, and they pulled over and charged when driving an unregistered vehicle. Plus many don't have a social security number, so can't apply for most jobs anyways. That's what gives them the opportunity to complain that they are being oppressed and they are fighting for a righteous cause. It also gives us entertainment when they post their latest attempt to say the secret words that will let them get away with all these things that inevitably fails.
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
- otp@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  People of inexplicably confident certainty that they alone have discovered YOUTUBE VIDEOS THAT DISCUSS legal loopholes enabling them to ignore laws they don’t like while benefitting from public services and infrastructure of a nation they assert they are not a citizen of. It’s delusional ignorance.
  
  FTFY
  
  source
- TexasDrunk@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  You know, there are probably some in the mountains of West Virginia that might as well be sovereign citizens. They’re living in the woods off the land, not using public infrastructure, trading with their neighbors, and being self sufficient.
  
  Hell, I’ve got a buddy who has a little shack. He pays his taxes, has a registered vehicle, and obeys the laws. He’ll work the oilfield or do odd jobs a few months of the year, pay what he needs to pay, then go live in the woods with his dog until he needs more money. He hunts, fishes, and forages. We check on his property while he’s gone.
  
  He owns almost nothing and is basically on the most hardcore camping trip you can imagine for half the year. I wish I had that mindset and skill set. He’s one of the happiest guys I know.
  
  source
  - shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The skill set to live like that is wild. I’ve got a couple of acres in the swamp where I hike and shoot and camp, generally act like a redneck. You could drop me off naked in January, I’d be fine in 20-minutes. But I wouldn’t last more than 3-weeks!
    
    Most people have no concept of living off the land like your buddy. Wish I could hang with him and learn!
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The core belief of sovereign citizens – initially, anyway – is the notion that since government exists at the consent of the governed they can “opt out” of being subject to the laws of wherever they are.

This has a tiny grain of legitimate logic to it, in that not a single person on Earth is given a choice of society and/or country to be born into. Governments attempt to exert absolute authority over everyone within their spheres of influence regardless of what those people may happen to think of the matter, and the feasibility of them physically leaving said society/country notwithstanding. All laws are just words on paper, after all, and from a certain perspective completely artificial, arbitrary, and transient.

Where it all breaks down is that these people typically arrive at the above conclusion by being absolutely stark raving loony, and typically want to have their cake and eat it, too – they don’t want to be subject to obeying laws, or paying taxes, or having to register their vehicles and get driver’s licenses, pay child support, etc., but they still somehow feel entitled to the use of public infrastructure like roads and bridges, police and fire services, municipal water and sewer use, and so forth. In modern times a simple “no gubmint can tell me what to do and I’m answerable only to myself” outlook has mutated into this arcane and nebulous pseudo-religious willful misinterpretation on the wording of laws, what is and is not printed CAPITALIZED on various government documents, and fixation on “contract law,” treating every interaction between everyone and every thing as a “transaction” which the sovereign citizen believes is inherently negotiable (always in their favor, of course).

This is furthered by shucksters who sell books and seminars to ~~idiots~~ the types of people who have the right type of chip on their shoulders, which purportedly contain the secret knowledge and legal incantations to make all this work but are, of course, just bullshit. Usually people who entangle themselves in SovCit bullshit are trying to weasel out of of some particular financial obligation. Not wanting to pay child support seems to be a very popular one, as are taxes in general, fines, loans, and liens.

The whole thing is just fascinatingly whacked the more you look into it. Here’s the RationalWiki article on it, for instance:

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen

source
- Davel23@kbin.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  shucksters
  
  I believe you mean either shyster or huckster, though both certainly apply.
  
  source
  - shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    If shuckster is a portmanteau, I’m all in. When can we all start using it?
    
    source
  - DumbAceDragon@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Chuckster
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
cynar@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Further to the other answers, “sovereign citizens” are an interesting variant on a “cargo cult” mindset.

The cargo cults, if you’ve not heard of them, came about after WWII. The Allied forces, advancing through the Pacific, set up airbases on various islands. These islands had tribes living on them. The tribes got a crash course in the wonders of modern society, American army style. Unfortunately, the gap between their experiences, and the world they were now exposed to was huge, and brief. A lot of misunderstandings were made (either due to insufficient background knowledge, or bored/malicious information from the troops involved).

When the allies upped stakes and left, the tribes were left a little shell shocked. They had the bright idea that if they recreated what the Americans had done, they too could summon the metal birds from the sky, full of a vast wealth of cargo! They then went about reproducing everything they had seen. They built runways, control towers, and fake planes, to bait down the cargo planes. But it never worked! They obviously weren’t doing it exactly right. So they tried harder, recreating all they could as closely as they could.

Now to us, this seems crazy. Of course you can’t summon a cargo plane by sitting in a wooden “control tower” talking into a coconut! We have a larger context however. We know that those planes were sent, not summoned etc.

“Sovereign Citizens” have a lot in common with these cults. However, they are focused on the legal system. Most legal systems are convoluted and arcane. They are less designed, than accreted over time. Lawyers, and the hyper rich who imply them, use this to run rings around the systems in place. They used complex legal entities to game the system to their advantage.

“Sovereign Citizens” see this and thought “why can’t we do that?”. Unfortunately, they didn’t understand what was actually happening. They tried to recreate it, but lacked fundamental information. Even worse, a number of grifters found them, and decided they were excellent marks. They fed them additional bullshit, and gave them ever more complex instructions to make their plans work. When they failed, it’s obviously because they did it wrong, or got out-spelled, not because the instructions were BS to begin with.

In short, “Sovereign Citizens” are a mix of the desperate, the stupid (not always the same thing!), the brainwashed and the grifters, all wrapped up in an almost religious cargo cult.

source
- DrMango@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I like the allegory to magic you’re implying at some points because it really seems like an apt comparison for the way an SS uses the legal/government system. Like it’s some sort of arcane power and they can harness it for their own gains with certain incantations (“I comprehend”), runes (writing legal codes on your envelope to get out of paying postage), or crafted artefacts (fake IDs and license plates).
  
  source
  - cynar@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The modern world runs on magic spells. The average retiree doesn’t know how their TV works, or even the remote. They do, however, know that if they perform an arcane set of actions, their preferred soap appears on the magic box.
    
    Even as a techie, this still applies. Just because I could build a TV remote, doesn’t mean I know, or care how this particular one works. I just perform my magic spell to make the magic box work.
    
    “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” - Arthur C Clark.
    
    “Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.” - Terry Pratchett.
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
- SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s a really good analogy and I had no idea cargo cults were a thing but it makes sense in a way
  
  source
  - Cinner@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Heres a good video on the OG cargo cult youtu.be/x5jbHDMeDFE
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
Crack0n7uesday@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Basically a bunch of people who claim to not be citizens of any nation and will therefore try to claim they essentially have diplomatic immunity no matter where they go.

source
- dbx12@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  But if they are not citizen of any nation, wouldn’t that make them illegal immigrants in any country?
  
  source
  - Crack0n7uesday@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    That’s why they claim some strange pseudo diplomat status.
    
    source
    -> View More Comments
MagosInformaticus@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
That phrasing refers to a very broad set of movements and individuals. The usual core beliefs are:

Legislation in their jurisdiction and the government’s authority to enforce it is in some way defective.

People in their jurisdiction can opt out of laws and government, and live only under “natural law”.

People have to perform a set of legal procedures (spells, effectively) in order to achieve that.

Exactly why and how law/government authority is defective, what natural law looks like, what the spells are that they have to cast - all of these are extremely variable both between jurisdictions and between individuals.
Primarily it’s a set of grifters charging money for courses and materials to learn about these beliefs from whoever they can convince. Sometimes as in Germany, it’s a group of neo-Nazis plotting to reinstate the Kaiser.

You might enjoy münecat’s longer form explanation.
source
- agent_flounder@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  “natural law”.
  
  Wait, is that what that lunatic was ranting and raving about the other day??
  
  (If you saw the thread you’d know exactly who I’m talking about)
  
  source
ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
You know how lawyers shout “objection!” in court and it causes things to happen? Sovereign Citizens believe all laws work that way. If you find the right words, phrase, or document, you can bend the legal system to your will.

It’s kind of like thinking the law works like Magic The Gathering. Sorry officer, but I counter your “diving with a suspended licence” attack with my “I’m travelling not driving” spell!

I almost feel bad for them because in some ways the legal system is a game that can be bent to your will. It’s just that the best spells cost millions of dollars to cast.

source
- shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  the legal system is a game that can be bent to your will
  
  Boom! This is kinda true. People encounter the legal system, get fucked, get off, or get by, and they see that words mean things in that system. I get where they’re coming from.
  
  When I was in my 20s I fucked around a bit, nothing heinous, but found there’s a difference in pleading nolo contendere and not guilty.
  
  My lawyer tore shit up in my child custody case. Because he knew the law, and how the game is played, we kicked my ex-wife’s ass all over the room. (She was also hilariously wrong in nearly everything she did to us. Because she had legal opinions and not facts.)
  
  Little off topic, but for the sovereign angle, Americans can tell their bank to get fucked on NSF charges. It’s a phone call, and it’s backed by law.
  
  I got evicted by a foul and senile landlord in the day. All on me because I couldn’t produce the signed agreement, he “lost” his copy, claimed it never existed.
  
  I got fucked out of my apartment because my roommate had the lease changed without my knowledge. Should have fought that one.
  
  (These items are long in the past, I’m not so ignorant now. But I’m still ignorant!)
  
  You learn these things as you navigate the world, and for these dumbassess, it seems like magic. Saying the right words works in many cases! Or better yet, not saying a damn thing. Been fucked on that one a time or three!
  
  It’s a simple-minded view of the world. What kills me is that their non-stop failures don’t get them to reconsider their actions. I know, they’re told they didn’t say the words or return the coupon or whatever the fuck, but they just keep coming back for more ass kicking?! Fuck me. I know when I’m down. I’ll give up.
  
  source
PopMyCop@iusearchlinux.fyi ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The best explanation (ever) for a sovereign citizen is found in a legal opinion by a Canadian judge. He spends about 176 pages delineating their beliefs, origins, and manner of interacting with the legal system.

www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/…/2012abqb571.html

source
VinesNFluff@pawb.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Two different categories:

People who believe they found the real world equivalent to the ‘lower wanted level’ cheats in GTA, and can do illegal shit freely as long as they say the right words to the cops when they are inevitably caught

Grifters who take advantage of those people, who may or may not be true believers.
source
scoobford@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Its a fringe group of people (mostly) in the US who believe that the law isn’t the law. They either believe that older legal systems are still active, such as the articles of confederation, OE that the usage of certain terms in legal documents constitutes a hidden system.

The most common manifestation is the belief that they can declare themselves immune to some it all of our existing legal code.

They get made fun of a lot because they are fundamentally a kind of decentralized cult, and they do a lot of strange and stupid things. Unfortunately, they also have a habit of doing terrorism, so they are a legitimate danger and not just some fun weirdos.

That being said, they mostly try to print their own license plates and assert that speed limits do not apply to them because they are “free men living upon the land” and they believe they have a right to “travel” unimpeded. That’s why you see them mostly in videos of some idiot arguing with a cop that they were “traveling” and not “driving”.

source
- deafboy@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  These ideas has expanded to europe recently. There are several groups operating in slovakia, and czechia.
  
  One of the group is arguing that the czechoslovakia never split up, and the existing republics are just private corporations. They issue their own “czechoslovak” ID cards. You can order one online.
  
  The other group involves quite a lot of fantasy and scifi in their believes. They declare themselves as mebers of one of the several alien civilizations backed by the millions of space warriors. One of their members has become infamous after the police stopped her for using a license plate issued by the galactic civilization. Then she tried to identify herself by presenting the ID card issued by the same institution.
  
  source
  - user134450@feddit.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    that sounds almost exactly like the Reichsbürger in Germany. They also claim the current German state is actually just a corporation and the laws of the German empire are somehow still applicable. They also create their own passports. And of course they are deeply interconnected with Neo-nazis.
    
    source
fsxylo@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
A cargo cult.

They see lawyers use big words to make rich people get what they want and they try to emulate that without understanding how it works.

source
- ICastFist@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The funny part is that the “how it works” is stupid simple: money. Rich people have it, sovereign citizens don’t.
  
  source
RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Someone who thinks they are above the law in every way and actively opposes authority at every instance they can. And I mean every instance. Literally will get pulled over for going 120 in a 30 and they will say “you can’t do shit to me”. They are literally considered terrorists by the government.

source
- max@feddit.nl ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Don’t forget that they get mad when the government services they enjoy get taken away. Roads, electricity, you name it, they get mad about it.
  
  source
Boozilla@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
They think their individual rights and freedumbs mean laws don’t apply to them.

Some of their grievances are true. The government is often guilty of overreach and trampling on individual rights (like Roe v Wade being overturned, declaring corporate money to be free speech, cops murdering people, cracking down on protests, etc).

However, sovereign citizens think they can use “constitutional logic” to basically do whatever they want. They often find themselves sitting in a cell with Pikachu face, asking for a real lawyer’s help.

Perhaps the most egregious (or successful, depending on your point of view) example would be constitutional sheriffs.

en.wikipedia.org/…/Constitutional_Sheriffs_and_Pe…

In my opinion, they are basically domestic terrorists, or at least adjacent to that. The 3-letter federal agencies keep a close eye on these types of people.

source
- tigerjerusalem@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Perhaps the most egregious (or successful, depending on your point of view) example would be constitutional sheriffs.
  
  Shit, this went from harmless nutcases to completely terrifying.
  
  source
  - Boozilla@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Sorry, I wasn’t trying to fear monger. We do live in “interesting” times.
    
    source
RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
A moron who thinks the law does not apply to them.

source
Nomecks@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
If you want a well written break down of them, a Canadian judge wrote a fantastic article:

learningcentre.lawsociety.ab.ca/mod/…/view.php?id…

“Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument litigants”

source
odium@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
en.m.wikipedia.org/…/Sovereign_citizen_movement

source
db2@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It’s an idiot who insists on inflicting their idiocy on everyone around them. Seriously they’re dumb af.

source
BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
They are people who have fallen for and/or are grifting for a deeply unhinged conspiracy theory that national laws don’t apply to them if they do some certain set of pseudo legal things. What exactly those things are, as well as what laws don’t apply to them,vary widely, but are usually centered around driver’s licenses and car registration, tax evasion and not paying child support.

Past that it’s hard to explain what their beliefs are because it is so vague and ever changing.

source
- agent_flounder@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I can explain everything in detail for a modest fee /s
  
  source
philo@discuss.online ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
People who…

A - Are wastes of oxygen. B - Should ask for refunds for any tuition they ever paid cause they never learned anything. C - Almost always ~~drive~~ travel without a license or registration. D - All of the above.

source
SleepingTower@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
A myth.

source
Pratai@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Ignorant losers that are trying to grift their way through life tho king they’ve found loopholes that allow them to circumvent the laws that normal people follow.

source
HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Sovereign citizens are to civil lawyers as alchemists are to chemists.

They both invented their own lore to try to make the universe do what they want, except the alchemists actually strived to move towards more reliable and accurate science.

source
- BNE@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  except the alchemists actually strived to move towards more reliable and accurate science
  
  Forgive if I’m misunderstanding, but wouldn’t that be chemists striving toward reliable and accurate science? Sovcits being alchemists or petty magi is a pretty great comparison, honestly.
  
  source
  - chocosoldier@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    chemistry is an evolution of alchemy, because they strived in that way. Whereas Sovcit belief is a degenerate form of practicing law, more like a cargo cult imo.
    
    source
sxan@midwest.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Assholes who appropriated the word “sovereign” and ruined it ior the rest of us. Like, how cryptocurrency ruined “crypto” and blockchain - you can’t mention either without getting some kneejerk reaction about mining farms.

source
Clav64@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There’s a belief that (I’m going to heavily paraphrase/over simplify here) when you’re born, there are two versions of you … The ‘corporation’, and the ‘real’ you.

Any document issued by the government i.e. birthday certificates, social security etc is against the corporate version of you. And as a ‘real’ person, you are not part of a system you didn’t consent to.

So when you get pulled over for speeding, it was your real self who was driving, not the corporation, and only the corporate self is beholden to the law. This same idea is applied to taxes…

source
NegativeLookBehind@kbin.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Are familiar with the term “dumbass”?

source
- Clav64@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The singular ‘dumbass’ to the plural ‘sovereign citizens’
  
  source
roertel@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’m so glad you asked. I had improperly assumed.it was referring to native or indigenous peoples from tribal land. I couldn’t figure out why all the hate.

source
Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
A nutcase.

source
visnae@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I watched münecats video on the topic. Very good and explanatory

source
jkrtn@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It’s if you want to play Dungeons and Dragons IRL: you can be a wizard class by choosing specific colors of ink as spell components and invoking the power of “maritime law” to bend the world to your bidding.

source
SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Dumb.

source
YurkshireLad@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
These people will happily fork over hundreds if not thousands of dollars for fake IDs and paperwork from con artists, who must be laughing their way to the bank, while also refusing to get official, required paperwork from the government.

source

-> View More Comments