Honestly, just take a basic normal car, and replace its engine with an electric one. No on screen entertainment, no cameras, no AI bull shit, no self driving. Just as basic as it gets.
Fear of cheap Chinese EVs spurs automaker dash for affordable cars
Submitted 11 months ago by boem@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
Fake4000@lemmy.world 11 months ago
netburnr@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Backup cameras are required on all 2018 or newer vehicles in the US and Canada, so you will need at least one in the back and a small screen for that, maybe hide that screen in the review.
This imaginary basic car should also come with a double-din radio so it can be upgraded like the old days.
madcaesar@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I wish they sold me just a double din hole with cables ready for connection. All stock radios single or double din suck ballsack for what they are charging.
Usernameblankface@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Yes, the absolute basic required technology to make it road legal, physical switches and either physical gauges or a non-touch screen for gauges if that’s cheaper.
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Physical switches > screens. It’s much harder to develop the muscle memory for a screen. I don’t have to look away from the road with switches.
evranch@lemmy.ca 11 months ago
The reason everything is on a touch screen now is that it’s cheaper than physical switches, as ridiculous as that seems. And yes, I greatly prefer physical switches.
Buy and wire multiple switches on every car, requiring wiring harnesses, ECM IO pins etc. or pay an intern a minimal sum once so he can put “designed Chevrolet in-dash console” on his resume. Then never update it even though it supports OTA updates and is a glitchy mess, Chevy
This is the same reason so many products come with a stupid Bluetooth app now rather than more than one button. Pay once rather than pay on every unit.
AnneBonny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
They don’t know how to market something that doesn’t have a bunch of gimmicky bullshit.
shasta@lemm.ee 11 months ago
“Get your cheap, reliable EVs here!” Done. You can pay me that $100k marketing salary whenever it’s convenient.
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 months ago
The problem is you can’t efficiently electrify a vehicle designed for fossil fuels. The requirements differ too much.
Actually EV conversions were common before we got intentionally designed EVs and the original Tesla was built on a standard Lotus body and frame, but luckily we’re beyond that now.
You can still choose to electrify a vehicle now but you get poor performance and range, unbalanced handling, and pay way too much for a mediocre vehicle. It’s bot worth it
GBU_28@lemm.ee 11 months ago
They mean at the design/manufacturing level, not retrofitting.
They mean just creat a simple ev car with only the needed designs to house the battery, controller and electric motor(s).
They mean discard all ideas of “futuristic” interiors, techs, or anything. Just build a modest car with an electric powerplant and battery storage. Then stop.
Fire any designer who tells you AI could improve the product.
JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
Batteries will need a frame change if you don’t want to sacrifice the trunk or something. And range will be bad unless you improve areo dynamics and heating. But I think the Bolt and the Nero are pretty close to their ice counterparts.
echodot@feddit.uk 11 months ago
Yeah that was the problem with the Nissan Leaf. It basically used the same frame as an ICE car, (and it wasn’t like it was a big SUV either) so all the batteries had to go in the back, and you had no storage and also there wasn’t really enough space in the back to have enough batteries to make it have decent range.
slumberlust@lemmy.world 11 months ago
What’s the incentive? Most people will have to buy a car anyways, so without a different incentive, it’s better for every manufacturer to sell you a 60k+ car where the margins are way higher. If profit is the sole motive it’s a no brainer.
HankMardukas@lemmy.world 11 months ago
The incentive is going to be undercutting the competition. It’s going to happen someday, might as well be you, car company.
buzz86us@lemmy.world 11 months ago
The Citroen ec3 would be the car for you, but Stelantis doesn’t sell it in the US
PraiseTheSoup@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Everything Stelantis does sell in the US is junk, and has been for 20 years. Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat…all junk.
frezik@midwest.social 11 months ago
That’s basically the Mini Cooper EV. Took the guts of a BMW i3 and dropped it in the shell of a Cooper S. They even left the engine vent on the hood.
It’s a fun car, and relatively inexpensive for the current crop of EVs, but its range is limited. We’re already moving past the era where this is a good idea.
dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Its a nice idea which probably has a lot of complex implications. It would probably be a huge pain to figure out dimensions and compatible electric motors for every brand of non-electric vehicle, so the production of replacements would become very wide. Typically, the battery of an EV isn’t just a brick in the engine room, but it’s a whole range of cells along the length of the vehicle. Using the same space as the combustion engine might leave you with a vehicle with terrible range. Also, the safety of a car takes the engine into account. Replacing a combustion engine with an electrical engine would likely require a whole new safety overview for each individual model.
I honestly really hope that your suggestion would work, but I’m not expecting to see this becoming a wide solution before EVs dominate the market anyway.
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I don’t think he meant to literally take the ice out of a camera and replace it with a motor and battery.
But rather he meant, make a new ev, on an EV chassis, but without all the nonsense that drives up costs without adding significant value.
I don’t need touch screen everything with 3d gaming built in, gull wing doors, and custom flush door handles that don’t work if you have a hand injury or any type of disability.
Hyperreality@kbin.social 11 months ago
Chinese EVs are being sold at a loss of up to 35k per car:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/05/business/nio-china-electric-vehicles.html
The Chinese government is subsidising their car industry, so they can engage in dumping, and decimate our car industries. When our domestic car industries are dead, they'll raise prices. It's like Amazon or any other scummy megacorp that kills local businesses.
This being said, it's hard to feel sorry for companies who also receive plenty of government subsidies, broke the law on emissions testing and likely killed a lot of people because of it, and refused to innovate or lower prices out of sheer greed.
cyd@lemmy.world 11 months ago
China is using subsidies to accelerate the green transition, exactly like the US is doing with the “Inflation Reduction Act” and other initiatives.
assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 11 months ago
And just like China with cars, the IRA spurred other European countries to pass similar legislation to remain competitive.
CeeBee@lemmy.world 11 months ago
China is using subsidies to accelerate the green transition
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDfLWFv3ixk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEMtTtUZXEk
www.bloomberg.com/…/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
nytimes.com/…/china-fishing-south-america.html
theguardian.com/…/chinese-fishing-armada-plundere…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LFCBTnrMow
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLFYChw5c0Y
Yup. Totally green.
zurohki@aussie.zone 11 months ago
Selling at a loss is how you build volume and reach the economies of scale that drive down costs.
If you fiddle around half-heartedly putting out small numbers of EVs, you’ll never come close to competing with a company that puts out over a million a year. A lot of automakers still aren’t willing to commit, and they’re whining about the position they chose to put themselves in.
Squizzy@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I truly don’t care if China destroy the car industry, it’s fucking ridiculous how expensive some basic shit is. In my opinion if you introduce a feature into your cars, you have ten years before it should become standard.
sir_reginald@lemmy.world 11 months ago
a comment in the article you linked says this better than I ever could:
This whole narrative about alleged “subsidies” to Chinese EV makers and them “losing $35,000 per vehicle” is pure propaganda. Firstly, that company - Nio - is a relatively new one and it is still ramping up its production. A year ago when they were not selling EVs yet but invested a lot in R&D it could be said that they were losing infinite amount of money per vehicle - because infinity is what you get from dividing by zero. Both this logic and this math are erroneous. Tesla was losing money for years even after it started making and selling its cars.It kept going by taking money from investors in exchange for shares. That is exactly what the Chinese EV companies do. So secondly, those are not “subsidies” but investments, even if the money comes from Chinese government entities. This article states itself that local governments take stock in companies in exchange for investment - exactly the same thing Tesla investors did.
Astaroth@lemm.ee 11 months ago
just google chinese ev car graveyard i.imgur.com/vjtkj6J.png
DrunkenPirate@feddit.de 11 months ago
There‘s a word for that „Greedflation.“ This is western car makers do. Luckily, the Cinese car makers grasp their chance and disrupt the market
alvvayson@lemmy.world 11 months ago
While that is part of it, the other, bigger part is that Western countries actually do have higher labour costs: better salaries and conditions for our workers.
When China was outcompeting us on undesirable, low productivity, jobs, we accepted that. It was better to raise a billion Chinese out of poverty than to protect our lowest productivity factory workers. And those workers mostly transitioned to other jobs with higher productivity.
But now China is richer and their labour force is shrinking, so they will compete with highly productive factory jobs.
Politically, it is unlikely that car workers will accept unemployment. Nor will other highly paid workers.
So a trade war is brewing, you better brace yourself for it.
hark@lemmy.world 11 months ago
China wasn’t “outcompeting us on undesirable, low productivity, jobs”. Corporations were shipping jobs to China to undercut highly productive factory jobs back then, too, so they could save on labor costs. It’s only now that China is undercutting corporate profits that these same corporations come crying and shitting their pants. That’s also why you see a ramping up of negative media pieces on China. It was never about charitably raising people out of poverty. It was always about corporations undercutting labor to gain greater profits. Fuck 'em, bring on the cheap cars.
DrunkenPirate@feddit.de 11 months ago
Don’t think labor costs is a big factor. Car production is the sector that mostly automated. Just think of this endless bands of hanging cars with robot arms working on it. Tesla even topped this.
It’s mainly the unwillingness to design and sell cheap cars due to less profits. In Germany we had electric cars for 20k€ or even combustion cars under 15k€. But they stopped building it. Although it was sold out in weeks.
In my region there was a Startup by the Aachen University RWTH (which is an elite university in Germany) bulding small EVs for around 20k€. They simply bought all parts from suppliers and just assembled it. And engineered and designed it first. Unionized and still competitive. Unfortunately, they didn’t fly.
EV building is rather simple. The software is key. And this is the missing part at car makers capabilities.
I second your thoughts on trade war. However, I guess it will be much simpler with high taxes, high quality regulations, and may be less support by car workshops. We will see…
Hyperreality@kbin.social 11 months ago
Chinese manufacturers are being heavily subsidised and even making a loss on their cars.
They're trying to kill off our domestic car industries.
Molecular0079@lemmy.world 11 months ago
No reason why western countries also can’t subsidize EV car companies to remain competitive.
Like…what are we supposed to do? Be content with ridiculously priced EVs and be willing to pay a small fortune for them? Fuck off with that noise.
Western corporations have had no problems fucking over the average consumer for decades or laying off thousands of employees at the first sign of trouble. Let them adapt or die I say. Competition is always good. Western corporations have the smarts and the resources to compete, they just need to be forced to.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Selling at a loss to enter a market or gain market share is a time honored tradition at this point.
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Sounds exactly like the rest of us
doublejay1999@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Everyone heavily subsidises their car industry
CosmoNova@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Yep. They‘re doing exactly what we usually call hostile underbidding to heavily inflate prices later when they‘re a top dog. A practice that is not quite legal in most parts of the west. And whoever wants to know when things still don‘t work out for the car maker because subsidies dry up: Search for Chinese manufacturer ‚Weltmeister‘. That will make you think thrice about ever coming near a Chinese EV.
Reality_Suit@lemmy.one 11 months ago
Good
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Greedflation is when you checks notes compete in a market by offering cheaper products?
Treczoks@lemmy.world 11 months ago
If you see that European car makers sell the same car in China for less than half than they charge at home, you know they are basically milking us just for extra profit.
Daiken@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Not true. Most products aren’t the cost of the materials. There are a lot of included expenses in the price of a product like the cost of labor. They’re also not the same cars.
Treczoks@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I am well aware that there are costs beside materials and labor. In my company, I’m part of those other costs - I’m R&D. The point is still: Why shall we bear all those costs and others don’t? Don’t expect people being happy about being handled gross unfair.
They’re also not the same cars.
Yes, there are differences. But they are small, and could be incorporated in a low-cost version of European cars, too - if they actually want a low cost version here.
abhibeckert@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Except it’s rarely the “same car”. For example a Tesla Model 3 manufactured in China has an LFP lithium-ion battery, while the US manufactured ones use an NCA lithium-ion battery.
weew@lemmy.ca 11 months ago
actually they’ve been selling the LFP version in North America. Even with the extra import costs and reduced government grant due to a Chinese battery, it still ends up cheaper.
Obi@sopuli.xyz 11 months ago
Sounds like what I’d like is whatever options or differences that make the car half as cheap.
buzz86us@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Not true… The lower trims so in fact use LFP
lagomorphlecture@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Nooooo anything but more environmentally friendly vehicles that people can actually afford. Won’t somebody think of the profits?
kameecoding@lemmy.world 11 months ago
not sure about environmentally friendly,friendlier sure, but a well developed public transit system and biking infrastructure beats any kind of car based infrastructure
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Complements. The reason we’re stuck in this auto-dystopia (are we auto-asphyxiating? ;-) is people wanting one size fits all infrastructure. Let’s apply this more intelligently this time - recognize that some areas are more built up than others. In general that can be a good thing, but we need interconnected services for everyone. That does include cars in many areas, although I agree a worthwhile goal for cities/town centers is that people not need a car
dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 11 months ago
We need the incrementally more eco-friendly options as well. Most pickup truck driving office workers won’t suddenly get a bike and change their ways, so a more eco friendly personal vehicle is probably a lot more likely to reduce emissions for that demography.
systemglitch@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Says someone who lives exclusively in a city
SCB@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Won’t somebody think of the profits?
this article is literally about people doing this
CeeBee@lemmy.world 11 months ago
more environmentally friendly vehicles
I wouldn’t call what’s coming out of China environmentally friendly
nutsack@lemmy.world 11 months ago
My God the Chinese are at it again beating the United States at capitalism
echodot@feddit.uk 11 months ago
It’s not on, it really isn’t, the Chinese shouldn’t be allowed to engage in the free market. They’re supposed to be the enemy.
BedSharkPal@lemmy.ca 11 months ago
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not…
silencioso@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Hear me out: a bare minimum electronics car extremely reliable, no screens no bells and whistles and with the smallest engine that costs less than $5.000
SlopppyEngineer@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
Citroën Ami is available. Closer to $8000 and technically a quadricycle. All bare minimum to make it street legal.
IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social 11 months ago
You can get an electric motorcycle for that price. Even electric microcars cost more than $5000. Unless you want to buy a Chinese tin can death machine on wheels that aren’t street legal.
vivadanang@lemm.ee 11 months ago
gee the market has been clamoring for a decade while the auto industry said “BIG TRUCKS AND SUV’S!”
BruceTwarzen@kbin.social 11 months ago
I mean people also eat it up like good luttle piggies.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 11 months ago
I mean there’s still a good amount of people in my position where you can’t fit 3 car seats in any ev in the market. Haven’t checked in the past year, maybe it’s changed but I also can’t afford to waste 60k+
altima_neo@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
Yeah but where can I get these cheap Chinese EVs? I’ve never seen any for sale in the States
onlinepersona@programming.dev 11 months ago
Somewhat unrelated: IINM most Europeans don’t drive even a quarter of the max range of EVs on most of their trips. The current range of EVs should be just fine it you plug it in every day like your phone. Getting an EV that can get you to work and back or to a friend and back without charging should already allow to buy an EV that’s quite affordable.
Reality_Suit@lemmy.one 11 months ago
So they CAN make cars cheaper. I bet they still post profit while claiming they’re losing money.
Varyk@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
CeeBee@lemmy.world 11 months ago
China isn’t making EVs for the sake of going green and the companies making them should have their manufacturing methods questioned.
autotldr@lemmings.world [bot] 11 months ago
This is the best summary I could come up with:
LONDON/DETROIT, Dec 8 (Reuters) - The rise of inexpensive Chinese electric vehicles has upped the pressure on legacy automakers who have turned to suppliers, from battery materials makers to chipmakers, to squeeze out costs and develop affordable EVs quicker than previously planned.
“Automakers are really now only turning to affordable vehicles, knowing they’ve got to or they will lose out to Chinese manufacturers,” said Andy Palmer, chairman of UK startup Brill Power, which has developed hardware and software to boost EV battery management system performance.
Palmer, formerly Aston Martin’s CEO, said Brill Power’s products could boost EV range by 60% and enable smaller batteries.
Stellantis (STLAM.MI) is building a European plant with China’s CATL (300750.SZ) to make cheaper LFP batteries and recently unveiled the Citroen electric e-C3 SUV, which starts at 23,300 euros ($24,540).
Vincent Pluvinage, CEO of Palo Alto, California-based OneD Battery Sciences, said that on his recent visits with European automaker customers, every meeting started with the same refrain: “‘Reducing costs is now more important than anything else.’”
Veekim CEO Peter Siegle said using cheaper ferrite and low-cost processes - including 3D-printed copper wiring - can cut an EV motor’s price by 20%.
The original article contains 809 words, the summary contains 195 words. Saved 76%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
MuuuaadDib@lemm.ee 11 months ago
In Southern Ca these are becoming popular, we also have the largest Viet population outside Vietnam I believe.
trackcharlie@lemmynsfw.com 11 months ago
… the same ‘cheap chinese evs’ that keep spontaneously combusting all over china?
Wow. Can’t wait…
MrSilkworm@lemmy.world 11 months ago
fear of competition spurs automakers to make certain competitive products. FTFY
arin@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Asians bad, especially big C /s
CeeBee@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Not “Asians”. Companies that follow the CCP’s policies and ways of doing business.
What you did was typical pro-CCP misdirection. You took “fear of cheap Chinese EVs” and ran with that to “Asians bad”. Chinese are not all Asians and the CCP is not a race.
youtu.be/yOA7qKMcjcE
Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz 11 months ago
Fear of automakers from country where slave labor is legal. FTFY
macrocephalic@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Unregulated capitalism loves slavery, we just like to pretend it’s not there because it’s in a country with people who speak a different language (mostly).
mx_smith@lemmy.world 11 months ago
FOCO