I sort of think that the only way to make visa/mastercard reverse course is to boycott the fuck out of them. Go back to using cash to make EVERY purchase. Purchase physical copies of games every time with cash. (I’ve been able to link games to my steam account purchased this way.) No longer buy skins and loot crates, and battle passes. Same goes with media. Go back to hard CDs for music/movies. Starve them of income any place you can, which would fuck with the business models of so many other companies that want your debit and cc on file for streaming services and subscriptions.
Steam Users Rally Behind Anti-Censorship Petition
Submitted 8 months ago by themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com to technology@lemmy.world
https://gamerant.com/steam-anti-censorship-petition-blows-up/
Comments
Washedupcynic@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Bubbey@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I know it’s downvote central, but I’ve been on the “No Porn on Steam” train forever. Ever since the introduction to the service it has inundated so much of the “Top Selling” “New & Trending” etc. Steam is for games, porn is for porn. Super annoying to sift through it when I’m looking for a new game, and I have my age settings so I can see adult games like GTA/Dishonored, not “Super Hentai Bejeweled 3000”.
JoYo@lemmy.ml 8 months ago
“I’ll know it when I see it” has gotta be the most vibes way to tell people they’re degenerates.
JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 7 months ago
It’s also the US legal standard for obscenity laws, unfortunately.
pyre@lemmy.world 8 months ago
-
steam is for games… no, it isn’t really. steam has been distributing non game software for ages.
-
porn games are games so even if steam is for games it should have porn games.
i don’t care for porn games but I’ve filtered them out so who cares what others do with their time
-
SpiceDealer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
… and I have my age settings so I can see adult games like GTA/Dishonored, not “Super Hentai Bejeweled 3000”.
The former belong to the M rated category while the hypothetical latter would belong to the Adults Only category. As others have pointed out, you can hide adult games and still see other games with violence and mature themes. Steam classifies M-rated games and AO-rated games differently.
Crozekiel@lemmy.zip 8 months ago
One of the biggest problems is “what is porn?”. Time and again a clear definition eludes us and it comes down to personal perception. What one group of people think is porn is not to a different group. Also something to think and reflect about, why are you okay with a store selling intense and graphic violence, but not sex?
Then we get to the fact that it isn’t Steam calling the shots on this, not really. It is payment processors. The real outrage here is that Steam is not getting to decide what they do and don’t sell, and it isn’t a legal problem either. It is an arbitrary choice by the middle man monopoly. And there is nothing stopping their rules removing your ability to buy GTA or Dishonored next.
I think the backlash would be a lot less if this was truly a Steam decision. There would be people upset still, but I don’t think to the same degree. The massive outrage is that stores all over, including as big as Steam, are being blackmailed into making these changes.
themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
I believe this group tried to remove GTA V and Detroit become human.
HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
Excuse me sir, but Super Hentai Bejeweled 3000 is one of the best games of our times.
/S
Just turn the adult stuff off yo.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com 8 months ago
So turn off the check box that shows you porn games…
BeliefPropagator@discuss.tchncs.de 8 months ago
You can disable showing adult games from the store in the store preferences.
store.steampowered.com/account/preferences
This setting is apparently disabled by default, so at some point you enabled it.
themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
Yeah, I think he enabled it. It never showed porn games for me.
JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Certainly there should be better search tools and personal curation on Steam. If you don’t want to see it you should be able to easily filter it.
PyroNeurosis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
Is it more about the porn or the shovelware for you? That is to ask: would you play a porn game that is sufficiently story-driven and acclaimed?
themachinestops@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
Ehat you said reminded me of Fate Stay Night, never played it, but the story was so good they made anime and manga for it, without the sex scenes of course.
Bubbey@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Would I play a game that has sex/nudity in it? Yes. Do I want games that are specifically pornography on steam. No.
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Or its sequel, Futanari Tentacle Schoolgirl 4000
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
I understand the principle but why do gamers always choose the worst examples of something to rally behind. The stop killing games petition rallying around The Crew, which lasted 10 years and was a very average game, and now this with getting behind porn games to protest censorship.
Is there really no better examples than those?
GlockenGold@lemmy.world 8 months ago
“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”
-Martin Niemöller, 1952
Obviously banning porn games isn’t comparable to the holocaust, but the principle of defiance is the same. If we don’t want credit card companies to ban stuff we like, then we should also oppose them when they ban stuff we don’t care about.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
They didnt ban anything, they said they’d stop doing business with steam and itch. I dont want to force companies to do business with other companies.
TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
would you rather them do nothing?
cynar@lemmy.world 8 months ago
The goal is to stop them building up any momentum. If the credit companies get used to flexing their power like this, and steam gets used to folding to it, then things will escalate.
Right now it’s porn games. Who the hell would defend them. But it won’t end there. You honestly don’t think they would go after games that mock religion, or are trans positive?
Clbull@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Under the guidelines imposed by payment processors which were recently clarified by itch.io, Baldur’s Gate 3 would be banned, as it contains moments of non-consensual sex and bestiality.
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 8 months ago
Everybody needs to also stop using Mastercard/Visa/Paypal.
ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online 8 months ago
The death grip that they have over everything is more than anything in history.
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 7 months ago
Well, banks here in NL have been using VISA and Mastercard cards, but that is more so people can use them in America/Canada and some other countries which are still behind on chipped cards.
But over the years I have seen 40-50 different payment platforms and most of them do not use Visa or Mastercard.
pyre@lemmy.world 8 months ago
yeah I’ll start bartering right now
dragontamer@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Ummmm.
ACH is how you get your paycheck, and it’s being updated to FedNow.
Zelle is an independent network as well.
And of course, there is Discover and AmEx.
There is also cash, check, money order. They still work today, just people largely forgot how to use them.
kieron115@startrek.website 8 months ago
can i
offertrade you a nice egg in this trying time?
Life_inst_bad@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Is there any good reason why shops/Vendors dont really offer any kind of Crypto? Like I genuinely dont get it aren’t you paying way more for using Visa/Mastercard etc. as a shop?
TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 8 months ago
Because crypto isn’t really a currency as much as it is a volatile asset. Businesses require stability to run coherently, and utilizing something like crypto currency which could massively increase or decrease in value following a breaking news report isn’t something that large organizations can really tolerate.
echodot@feddit.uk 8 months ago
And use what instead? Swollen off PayPal is pretty easy because frankly it’s an awful service and businesses are better off not using it anyway so they tend to offer other options.
But MasterCard and visa are the only payment options. Everything requires MasterCard or Visa
Eezyville@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
There’s Discover and American Express if you’re in the US. I don’t know the porn policies of those companies but they are the alternatives.
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 8 months ago
Businesses are better of not using Paypal or Creditcards, both of the are a hassle and cost more time to process than a digital pin transaction or an old school bank transfer.
You have to use what is available in your country, a lot of countries have their own payment platform and they are being consolidated into one Wero.
As long as people keep using Mastercard or Visa they will have this power.
Routhinator@startrek.website 8 months ago
How else are you supposed to buy something on Steam? You just listed every available option.
Draegur@lemmy.zip 8 months ago
anti-censorship international credit union owned by members that can conduct transactions internally without having to ask for visa or mastercard’s FUCKING permission when???
I’m saying we should build Dual Power and go around them.
Eezyville@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
I would hate to see that credit union comply with the financial regulations of EVERY country.
Mwa@thelemmy.club 8 months ago
i wish gnu taler was widespread
psycotica0@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Welllllllll, Taler is actually exactly the wrong suggestion for this usecase, because Taler requires all spends to be redeemed from Vendor to Issuer non-anonymously, which gives the Issuer 100% control and say which vendors are allowed, which is exactly the thing Visa and Mastercard are using to exert control.
If there were competing Taler networks and Steam supported all of them, that might be okay because one of them might happen to not be dicks, but if there’s just one or two then Taler is designed from the ground-up specifically to enable this bad outcome. It’s actually one of their features!
Sorry.
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 8 months ago
Something like that will kinda work, but using it will flag your transactions if you use it as a business. That’s the issue with a lot of these things is that we need to have some kind of balance between privacy and authorities being able to do anything against terrorism etc. And yes you can find terrorists based on transactions.
Novice_Idiot@lemmy.wtf 8 months ago
Sure. But they are pretty much the only options in a lot of places. Yes they are shitty companies, but I personally can’t think of a good way to get away from them.
Vinstaal0@feddit.nl 8 months ago
Local/national banks with their bankcards and payment platforms? Buying steam gift cards using cash or by pinning? Even if your bank cards are halfway towards visa or mastercard using it through another party is still better.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
We knew in the aughts that this was going to be an issue when the charging companies defunded Wikileaks and Julian Assange¹ and were allowed to do so, defying public accommodations laws.
1. Yes, Assange is a git and a Russian asset (or at least has been before) but he did serve as a whistleblower against evil shit done by Bush and Obama administrations and the general aristocratic corruption at play in US federal politics. As with Chelsea Manning, he embarrassed politicians using their positions of power inappropriately, revealing that the state was not serving the public. Incidentally, ACLU in its early years was funded by USSR to cause trouble against the US state (which it was doing anyway and still does), which makes it historically (and debatably) a Soviet asset. Strange bedfellows and all that.
This is a tale that keeps repeating itself, and is why protections by the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments of the Constitution of the United States have been carved out like a holiday turkey by the US Supreme Court. We found it easy to deny unreasonable search and seizure protections from major crimes suspects, only to find that every black citizen with a gram of cannabis now no longer has those protections.
So it is with monopolies that decide they can be selective with their accommodations.
If we can’t pressure the transaction services to obey public accommodation rules since they have monopolistic power, it may be time to circumvent the issue, and support black market tactics ( Archie comic and bag of sawdust, $20, comes with free incest porn! )
These days, when discussing the usenet alt.* heirarchy, its acronym ( Anarchists, Lunatics, and Terrorists ) is now considered a backronym, a joke. I was there, and it belied a serious point: The worst of us deserve free speech, as per Larry Flynt, knowing that Hustler magazine is legally published in all its (raunchy) glory means that whatever you’re releasing to the public is safe from moral guardians and critics because they have worse stuff to shout at.
But we’re in an era of book burning, which means those would-be moral guardians are emboldened to try to reshape society in their image, in contrast to the principles of liberty and free thought. And soon ICE will expand its POI list to include liberals and wrongthinkers.
It may be time for bricks in windows and direct action against high-ranking company officials, but such behaviors carry high risks of consequences. So be careful and thorough.
In the meantime, write petitions of your grievances and sign those others have written. And remind them at this moment the public presumes petitioning them for redress of grievances will be acknowledged and acted upon. And if that turns out not to be the case, the outraged public will not simply disappear and keep to its place.
HelterSkeletor@lemmy.world 8 months ago
IANAL - Can credit card companies coordinate like this? This seems like price fixing but the other way around. Like one company wouldn’t do this alone cause it would drive customers away so they agree to do it together. Is that coordinated monopolistic behavior have president?
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
Yeah it seems to fit the description of a cartel… Not that it matters.
FauxLiving@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Yeah, I don’t expect the US Federal Government to do anything pro-consumer except to lower the cost of concentration camps and tear gas.
Atomic@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
I completely understand wanting to fight Visa and MasterCards position in the market. That’s fine.
But for the love of God. Do not involve Steam and various porn games into it. That is not going to help your case.
I get the whole. “Just because I’m killing someone in a game, doesn’t mean I’ll kill someone in real life”.
But that’s not going to hold up as an argument here. Depictions of CP, even if it’s a drawing with crayons, is still highly illegal in so many places. Same logic can be applied regarding other depictions of illegal behavior in the same category (pornogrophy). Such as incest. I’m not saying that depictions of incest is illegal in many places. Because I honestly don’t know. But there would be a precedence for it.
Personally, I find it utterly disgusting that Steam even allowed such titles to begin with. I welcome their removal of them. But I wish it was because of other reasons than payment processors having an issue with it.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
They removed Detroit: Become Human, dude…
Atomic@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
That’s great, not great that they removed it but a great example of something you can bring up that doesn’t hurt the case.
I just really wish people would leave actual porn games out of it. Because that is not going to be helpful to their case.
TeddE@lemmy.world 8 months ago
That’s the problem.
Valve already had a process to flag titles as illegal in specific jurisdictions, and as far as anyone can tell, was doing an okay job at that (not perfect, obviously), but they were forced to add an extra clause of, ‘oh, plus anything visa et al. don’t like’ the extra layer is adding minimal protection and is rife for abuse.
Additionally, let’s talk about what makes porn. Does “yakuza.fandom.com/wiki/Be_My_Baby” of Yakuza 2 count? Or does it get a free pass because it’s a large publisher?
What if players take the elements of the game to create something the developers didn’t prevent? Like if a map contains a baby on one side of a map and an orgy (in another office) on the other side of the map, is it CP if a player picks up the baby and brings it into the orgy room? Is this something you want the banks deciding? Couldn’t we - have therapists or other behavioral health development experts make this call?
Most importantly is the recorded history of how these systems are routinely shown to be used against smaller publishers, and assorted minorities (including LGBT people) have a woman show a boob, it’s polite adult fun, but if their twin brother shows a pre-op trans boob, now it’s magically porn.
Atomic@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
What if players take the elements of the game to create something the developers didn’t prevent? Like if a map contains a baby on one side of a map and an orgy (in another office) on the other side of the map, is it CP if a player picks up the baby and brings it into the orgy room? Is this something you want the banks deciding?
I said I wish removal of titles would be because of other reasons than payment processors having an issue with it. So to be clear. The answer to your question of if it should be up to banks to decide, is “No”.
Additionally, let’s talk about what makes porn. Does “yakuza.fandom.com/wiki/Be_My_Baby” of Yakuza 2 count? Or does it get a free pass because it’s a large publisher?
We don’t need to talk about what makes porn. Though it may have been unclear, the titles I spoke of, was the ones Steam removed after PayPal wasn’t authorizing payments. The “Incest porn games”. I don’t know what the law says where you live. But in my part of the world. Incest is illegal. And I do not think games where incest is the goal and depicted as a fetish have any place on steam.
It’s ok if you want incest games on steam. That’s your opinion. I just said I welcome their removal. But wish they would have been removed due to other reasons.
flop_leash_973@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Petitions like this are meaningless unless they come with a viable solution to the duopoly in payment processing that is Visa and Mastercard.
Empricorn@feddit.nl 8 months ago
You’re missing the point. This is not aimed at Valve, but at Visa and MasterCard. They are businesses. They primarily care about profit, not censorship. Especially when that pisses people off. They made the mistake of listening to the vocal minority of Collective Shout, so we have to let them know that. This isn’t the 80’s anymore, gaming is mainstream and there are far, far more gamers than puritanical Quakers that get the vapors at the sight of anything mature or complicated. And worst-case scenario, they are not the only payment processors, just your most convenient ones for customers and businesses. For now…
Gladaed@feddit.org 8 months ago
Are you calling them Quakers as a derogatory slur or are they actually Quakers/Religious Society of Friends people.
Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
Valve is a big enough company that they could conceivably start their own payment provider to bypass this.
Landless2029@lemmy.world 8 months ago
For example they could sell adult games under credits only and take CC or PayPal for credits.
This way you’re not buying adult titles with CC at all. Same way AAA deal with gambling with lootboxes.
DNS@discuss.online 8 months ago
Consumers punting the accountability and responsibility of their demise to the next generation of consumers. I hate how feeble and weak willed we are all as a species.
heyWhatsay@slrpnk.net 8 months ago
So, I wanted to see if I could find a list of games that were removed. I found this steam-tracker.com which is not specific to this event, but useful to keep track.
thatradomguy@lemmy.world 8 months ago
We want our pron and we want it now!
monogram@feddit.nl 8 months ago
pronpornSelf censorship is not appreciated here mate
thatradomguy@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I am ashamed, brother. Forgive me for I have sinned.
Iceman@lemmy.world 8 months ago
What is a gooner that cannot goon? This is murder.
potato_wallrus@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Give me the whole tiddy or give me death
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
CC companies have a really easy retort in that they operate in jurisdictions where these things are illegal
mholiv@lemmy.world 8 months ago
And the easy retort to that is that they don’t apply Chinese censorship globally. Only in China. Regional laws only apply regionally.
Bubbey@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Have you seen the NBA? China can apply its censorship globally lol
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
They have regional pricing already, regional content bans should be easy enough.
dudesss@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
How to use Debit or e-transfer to pay for Steam games?
SpaceScotsman@startrek.website 8 months ago
The article is saying the petition is targeting steam, but the actual linked petition is addressing credit card companies. The text of the petition doesn’t mention steam or valve. I don’t know what the author of the article thinks is happening here, and they’ve explained it very badly.
Vroomfondel@lemmy.ml 8 months ago
After reading the article on gamerant.com and looking at the petition, I really wonder if actually so many people are delusional and/or are just missing the core point here?! (Or it is just a small crowd with much noise?) IMHO, there are better places in the world to engage and petition for. (Local communities and regional politics, for example.) But if banning that little “funny” child incest game on Steam puts you up the tree, well, …
Are you really that offended? And why, on point? How in the world can you defend publishing (and selling) games - mostly targeted at young folks - which are quite disturbing, derangend and morally wrong in the name of “freedom” or “independence”? And call that blatantly censorship, when there are instead public guidelines by Steam and their partners? Don´t you wish for (young) people to develop good values instead of becoming delusional with child pornography, incest, violence, gore and such? What are your values here?
geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 8 months ago
Valve please fix
MITM0@lemmy.world 8 months ago
But we have to oppose CollectiveShout as well, as in destroy them. They’re way worse than I thought
LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 months ago
Make your own payment processor, Gaben. It’s the way.
Grass@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
I wish it was feasible to hve a large scale boycott of visa and mastercard. american express is already useless so it wouldn’t help much…
Truscape@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 months ago
“Hi there, would you like to sign the petition?”
Pandantic@midwest.social 8 months ago
Kolanaki@pawb.social 8 months ago
Need to petition Visa, MasterCard, PayPal, and American Express. I don’t think trying to get Steam itself to reverse these recent changes will necessarily be effective, since they are being pressured by the payment processors and they definitely aren’t going to risk not being able to effectively do business at all.
deathbird@mander.xyz 8 months ago
The major credit cards are essentially infrastructure, and really should not have the right to refuse to serve a lawful business.