Submitted 10 months ago by undead_falco@programming.dev to technology@lemmy.world
https://hackaday.com/2025/05/29/forced-e-waste-pcs-and-the-case-of-windows-11s-trusted-platform/
The writer clearly understands that something isn’t adding up with Microsoft’s claims about TPM, but nowhere do they address the accusations that Microsoft plans to use it as DRM (and potentially spying).
Similarly, only supporting certain CPU’s is suspect as hell. Between all this and Recall, it really feels like the driving design focus behind Windows 11 was to build the best spying machine they could.
I’m grateful to Microsoft for Windows 11 providing me a bunch of free machines to stick in my basement and put Linux on.
Debian user here. All people have a doorkey. Some people have an alarm system as well. Infosec is about ’ what do you have and what do you know '. So in principle TPM is a defencible argument. You should absolutely bail from MS products for different reasons. Like privacy. Your PC isn’t yours anymore. Your NPU will reduce THEIR costs. Etc.
Don’t enter Linux thinking its a drop in replacement. Go slow and do ‘ships in the night’. Move data over to the new ship. Start embracing OSS on windows, it’ll be familiar when you finally bail. G luck.
TPM is the wedge to put a cryptoprocessor in your computer so program can finally operate under the tyrannical scrutiny of users and the pirates using ghidra !
It may be a bold of me to say, but I hold the controversial opinion that I don’t really give a shit which computer OS you use. If you can use a mouse and keyboard to navigate a desktop environment then 🤙 you are ahead of the curve at this point.
ROFL no. I once knew someone who got offered an upgrade from whatever to Windows 10, only for it to fail half way through because their CPU was some weird corner case that the OS thought it supported but when it was time to boot… didn’t.
Also if you want to talk e-waste, look no further than Chromebooks.
Windows 11 has problems, this is hardly one of them.
Chromebooks and Apple products hitting EoL for sure.
Chromebooks sound good in theory but fall short because kids are great at breaking them and there is a lack of repairability.
There is also chromeos being kinda ass
Idk about the lack of repairability, those things are really easy and cheap to fix in my experience. They are at least no less repairable than 95% of laptops on the market.
what a bizare take to suggest hoping for ReactOS to mature before using Linux as daily driver. A lot of the current reactOS app compatibility depends on WINE implementation anyway.
ReactOS is a very fun project, but anyone expecting it to be a real useable OS is absolutely mad. It’s been going for almost 30 years, and they’re almost at the point of binary compatibility with Windows Server 2003…
Last I checked it didnt play very nicely in real hardware, and required running it in a VM
I had a Windows 10 laptop that has a CPU not supported by Windows 11. It’s not e-waste, though. It just runs Ubuntu now.
Fucking Christ, you have choices people. If windows won’t meet your needs anymore, USE SOMETHING ELSE! Why do these people pretend there are no alternatives to windows?!
Think about all the people with computers that don’t know about Linux.
Why do these people pretend there are no alternatives to windows?!
They’d have to admit they were wrong.
Most people are incapable of doing this unless they literally have no choice.
There are no alternatives to Windows. You will join us. Embrace ☀️. Extend 🌈.Ȩ̷͙͙̺̰̦͊̏͜x̷̱̹̃t̶̡͉̍̋̌̿͗̈́͘í̴̡̼̱̫͚̺͙̉ň̶̛̮͠ģ̴̛̹̮͎̏̓u̷̢̢̜͊̆̈̉͐̑i̸̛̪͔̤̰͚̾͌̈̍͜ͅs̶̳̜͎͓͚̣̼̖͌̇̈́͊̌͋h̷͉̹̄͐̋̐͛🌚.
Where’s Microsoft’s Chief Sustainability Officer on this one? Too busy looking the other way on Copilot’s massive energy usage?
Microsoft: BUT WE’RE THE MOST ECO CONSCIOUS COMPANY WE KNOW!!!
You can’t say they’re not. The even have a Chief Sustainability Officer! /s
OK I’m sold…they are officially the most eco efficient and conscious company in the WORLD and bill gates is not about to garrote me agent 47 sty-
DON’T TURN ON DISPLAYING SECONDS IN THE TASKBAR BECAUSE THAT’LL USE MORE ENERGY!
I can’t wait for the surge in cheap PCs available to buy and install Linux on. Please, Microsoft, lock down Windows more.
Switch to Linux, today. It’s always been the better option, but for the last decade it’s been the easier option as well. Installing Linux is a walk in the park whereas windows is a Hilarious clown show from hell with no end.
That reminds me that now in the office we’re dealing with windows machines where the network card just stops working, drivers are suddenly gone. Don’t ask, it’s windows, it’s Microsoft abd this is just considered normal. If a Linux machine has a bug it’s “oh my god Linux sucks sooo hard, it’s impossible to get it to work!” but this Microsoft bullshit just gets handwaved away with “well computers are complicated, let’s just reinstall this”
Yes, there is still a limited set of specialty hardware that may not have drivers available for Linux, but the vast majority of people can easily run Linux and have a much MUCH better experience than windows, and that is ignoring the spyware, the adware, the ads, the plain security nightmare of having a windows machine…
Switch to Linux, it’s easy, it’s beautiful, it’s fun. Come to Linux, come to the dark side, we have cookies
Seriously. If you’re used to fiddling with Windows and especially if you have installed Windows recently, go try something like Linux Mint. Just the install process will blow your mind. And then wait until you get a system update and it doesn’t affect what you’re doing!
No cookies!
Punch and pie!
But what if we already use Linux? Can we still have some cookies? Or is this new users only?
You can have them, just click accept all on the cookie pop up.
Installing Linux is a walk in the park whereas windows is a Hilarious clown show from hell with no end.
As a server maybe. Switching everything on my desktop to Linux has been a constant fight against all kinds of problems and there’s several things I haven’t been able to get working at all. Microsoft’s constant enshittification is closing the gap and it’s currently a tossup between which one I’m going to land on but that’s not Linux improving so much as Windows getting worse.
It’s very hardware dependent with a few problem’s like Nvidia. For Best results go established brands that support Linux like thinkpads.
If a distribution didn’t come with any default software, it would be unusable out of the box by the average user. If you want that, choose something like Arch or Gentoo or LFS.
The point of FOSS is freedom and choice. You can choose a distribution that aligns with your needs, and once it’s running, you can e.g. replace Firefox with Chrome or use Nautilus instead of Thunar. Try uninstalling IE/Edge or Explorer on Windows for a direct comparison.
The whole schtick is you have actual ownership and control of your software. You literally just have a Windows license and in that license you have no power or control over your OS. Microsoft is definitely spying on you at this point, no question about that anymore.
I am sensing some serious anti-linux projections. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. If you don’t like people talking about it, don’t use Lemmy and go to Reddit where there are tons of Windows bros who dunk on Linux all day.
Point is: Your full of it and you probably want to ruin Lemmy like Reddit got ruined so you can feel comfortable in your chosen OS. Follow the granny rule, if you don’t have something positive to say just shut the fuck up.
Quick glance on my installed programs, and I count 7 apps I heavily use in windows 11 with no linux version, nor a clear equivalent that could replace them without extensive hacks that may or may not work and be a total waste of my time.
if you tell us the names, maybe someone can help
Also a funny thing: I installed Debian with KDE and then GNOME last year on another PC, and guess what? KDE & GNOME came bloated with a bunch of apps, games, office suite, code editor and other shit.
that’s the decision of the distribution, not KDE/Gnome. often it is configurable in the installer, even in debian to some level.
The same cleanup & customization did for windows 11 I had to do to Debian KDE and then GNOME.
to be fair if uninstalling unneeded programs is the only thing you do on 11, you’re leaving in lots of things.
Let people use what they want.
I agree that insufferable jerks are insufferable jerks, but I don’t think most people want to use windows 11, but that’s what they can use, for one reason or another, some of which have a solution, some of which not yet
That reminds me that now in the office we’re dealing with windows machines where the network card just stops working, drivers are suddenly gone. Don’t ask, it’s windows, it’s Microsoft abd this is just considered normal. If a Linux machine has a bug it’s “oh my god Linux sucks sooo hard, it’s impossible to get it to work!” but this Microsoft bullshit just gets handwaved away with “well computers are complicated, let’s just reinstall this”
Ah, yes, that. I switched in 2011 and the first impressions were about how flawless everything is compared to Windows.
the plain security nightmare of having a windows machine…
Eh, about that - Linux really isn’t immune to that. Just right now Windows is still by far the more profitable target.
Linux security is not perfect, nothing is. But compared to windows security? Come on, seriously? Is .exe still the extension that’ll automatically execute a program?
It’s better now but twenty years ago some Linux distros were so insecure out of the box that you could be fully owned if you logged into the wrong network.
Even still, I don’t see most distros leverage the security capabilities that running Linux enables. Linux runs the server side of the internet, being a niche os isn’t the security silver bullet it once was.
I have a custom built PC running on Windows 10, which has no TPM and therefore cannot update to Win11. I might consider Linux as an alternative on some regular laptop, but I’m afraid that my games might no longer be running if I switch the OS from Windows to Linux.
Linux is fantastic for gaming. You’ll even see performance improvements. The only games that have problems are those that intentionally block linux, like Destiny 2, but they’re not worth playing.
The places you are likely to run into problems is with certain desktop apps. For example, the Affinity suite or software designed to support specific devices or peripherals. But if gaming is your focus, Linux is genuinely a better choice than Windows all around.
For what it’s worth, I switched 2 years ago and have yet to run into a game I wanted to play and couldn’t. There are some glaring holes, mostly around “serious e-sports” games that have overly invasive anti-cheat (or devs that specifically choose to block linux) that won’t work. Riot and Epic both seem to have a hard on for blocking linux users, as an example.
But here’s the neat part. You can make the switch and see, and it costs you nothing. If you are in the minority that it just won’t work for and have to switch back to windows, you are in the exact same spot you are in now, with nothing lost but a bit of time.
What games? Even games with EasyAntiCheat work in Linux nowadays, but it depends on the devs.
If it’s not “any game of a list of 200 and it must run without effort”, then most games can be made to work either with a certain version of Wine and winetricks settings, or with a certain version of Proton, and there are many things to consider trying.
I once couldn’t play X-Wing Alliance under FreeBSD because of joystick not being visible, so I went as far as patching Wine’s winmm (I think) to make it work, and carrying that patch around when upgrading Wine or installing someplace new. Glad to report that now one doesn’t need it.
That’s more than most things require, and some can’t be made work with just one simple patch, but the point is - a lot of games work.
And once you’ve made it work, no additional effort is needed. Just having, maybe, a script setting the right environment variables and launching the game.
A lot of games will just run.
Almost every single modern game runs on Linux, i always thought it was an issue but in reality it just works out of the box most of the time.
Proton has come a long way.
The only game I can’t play is fortnight, and that’s because Epic won’t enable the anti cheat to run on Linux, not because the game doesn’t work.
I’ve converted a ton of my older family to Linux, it does everything they need as far as web browsing and some basic office applications, and it offers a polished enough UI these days that most barely tell it apart from windows, some even prefer the UI more. Even 2/3 of our home systems have gone full Linux now too (no more dual booting) and handle all my own gaming, audio and programming needs. I really hope this message keeps getting out there and we can cut back on ewaste and forced obselence.
You can argue all you want about TPM and its ‘security’. I ALWAYS thought that forcing users to use TPM 2+ hardware is planned obsolescence and nothing/no one will convince me otherwise.
The only thing affected users can and should do is to leave that PoS of an ‘operating system’.
It’s not PoS. At its core Windows NT is very cool, and the Windows subsystem for it is not terrible.
What’s PoS is that the only way you get is with such a heap of garbage, that you can’t see the good parts behind it.
And even its developers seem to have forgotten those good parts, I wonder if they ever change anything there other than “closing” vulnerabilities with yet another condition in some long-long switch … case … statements.
It’s not really a TPM problem, my Dell has TPM2.0 which is perfectly compatible with win11. My problem is the CPU (i5 6th gen) missing some stuff for modern device drivers or something, that is preventing me from upgrading win10 to win11
The article focuses a lot on the security of the boot process, but there’s no reason the TPM can’t be used for DRM as well (as an example, ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5283799). It’s correct when it points out the locked down nature of consoles and phones.
We could conceivably be in for a future where Windows refuses to run code that’s not validated even after the OS boots. Or where it sees pirated software on the system and refuses to function in some manner until the software is removed/corrected to its liking.
There are so many possibilities here and all of them are bad.
It’s so fucking brazen I’m gobsmacked. As an elder Millennial, I get it, I can already hear most of you tallying in your head if having to care about your OS is gonna be the final straw . This is no longer a nerdy request to please use Linux, this is a five alarm fire. Add to all this how much Microsoft is in bed with the US government and potential issues with all that on the horizon and I really, truly believe it’s time to switch, for your own good.
Please. Even if you’re not going to run out and install Linux tomorrow, you need to start mentally preparing yourself for the inevitability of the task. Get yourself accustomed to the idea and when you’re ready to dip your toes in, just know how many resources are out there for you.
And to the Linux community out there, there are going to be a lot of newcomers who don’t have the technical skills to undertake this and enjoy/appreciate this in the same way as you do. Be kind to them, the need for us to support each other has never been greater. Please.
I’ve been dailying Linux for over a decade at this point so you don’t need to convince me, and I’ll just spin up a Windows VM for things aren’t picky about baremetal OS installs, but also don’t play nice with WINE.
You’re making up scenarios so you can get outraged over them and push linux lol.
Hey man, yeah, I get it. I worry a lot about sounding like a conspiracy theorist; a real Chicken Little.
But when I look internally and ask myself why I make these posts, why I conspire so much about unknown futures, I come to two most likely outcomes:
Worst case I’m wrong and I look a fool. I really don’t have a problem with that. I know who I’d trust if the positions were switched 💯
TPM was known to be a DRM Trojan horse in 2004. Then everyone forgot about that fact.
Sure, pushing Linux is just a new angle, but don’t doubt for a second that TPM has any purpose than making your own computer trust a cabal of corporations over you, the owner. And if there is a critical mass of TPM standardized hardware, such that a “trusted” environment is the standard, it will lock you out of major use cases on all “untrusted” systems, including Linux.
And that deserves a lot of outrage.
Didn’t Apple brick ipods if they had pirated audio files?
Didn’t Microsoft push a few updates that BSOD Windows OS if you weren’t setup for their OneDrive cloud?
Doesnt seem very made up.
DRM is already the primary purpose of trusted compute if you read shareholder meeting transcripts; security is a marketing side effect.
Ya boy Richard Stallman agrees and has been saying this for years (although this article is more recentish), www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.en.html
“Treacherous computing” is a more appropriate name, because the plan is designed to make sure your computer will systematically disobey you. In fact, it is designed to stop your computer from functioning as a general-purpose computer. Every operation may require explicit permission.
As of 2022, the TPM2, a new “Trusted Platform Module”, really does support remote attestation and can support DRM. The threat I warned about in 2002 has become terrifyingly real.
Actual, honest to god reasons to upgrade to Windows 11 are already vague and questionable. Your average user probably doesn’t even see any particular reason and only perceives the nuisance of it. But it’s hard to fully close your iron fist around a platform when TPM enablement is so sparse in the consumer space. So what better way to do it than a mandatory OS upgrade with it as a system requirement and assure all (or a vast majority of) systems align at once?
Of course there are ways for stubborn users to skirt those requirements, but that misses the primary point of Trusted Computing. While the OS may baseline function to some degree, there’s no telling what functionality may be crippled by not being in a trusted state.
I don’t know the future any better than anyone else, I’m just trying to read the winds at the moment. I suspect they may not try to pull the entire trap closed all at once and that Windows 11 may continue to more or less function as we’ve seen past iterations. But the pieces will be in place by then and it’s only a matter of time before some greedy exec gives the word …
This is on top of potential tariffs which if enacted will make PC costs skyrocket. I feel like a lot of people are just going to skip the generation like they do with every other windows machine. They will just keep windows 10 forever kinda like XP did back in the day.
I’m pretty hesitant to find the time to install and learn Linux but I’m VERY hesitant to upgrade to Win11. I’m having trouble understanding what the selling point for it is over Win10. I feel like it used to be clear and exciting to upgrade but they’ve managed to make this feel sort of dreadful.
Well yeah, w11 has no selling point, that’s why they’re forcing you to switch by removing support by autumn 2025
There is no particular selling point. That’s why they force it.
Because it’s so hard to use Rufus and make a win 11 install that bypasses the tpm requirements.
having to use hacks to get an operating system to work shouldn’t be needed.
requiring a Microsoft account to use Windows also shouldn’t even have been considered.
Cause your use case is the only one that exists, of course.
Companies are reluctant to use this method as theres no telling what will break due to TPM being disabled. Some will still use it as they have no other choice though.
That and having to manually upgrade CUs. It just doesn’t scale. It’s easier for most people to buy a new machine.
It’s easier for most people to just continue using their current PC past the end of support.
yeah I’m over here trusting them to flood the scrap market with AM4 motherboards so I can build Linux machines
I can hear the ‘just use Linux/BSD/etc.’ crowd already clamoring in the comments, and will preface this by saying that although I use Linux and BSD on a nearly daily basis, I would not want to use it as my primary desktop system for too many reasons to go into here.
Still though.
🐧
This rings a little hollow to me. Most of the people I know that understand Linux can quickly summarize why they might not use it as their daily driver (eg staying on macOS for graphics/video or staying on Windows for desktop Word/Excel). If you can summarize that quickly, it really makes me wonder if you really understand it. I’m not trying to No True Scotsman my way around it; I really don’t understand.
Personally, I’m sticking with macOS as my primary OS until the point that Asahi solves DP alt mode and I can run two displays from it.
My 2014 Mac mini runs Mint, so I’m more than happy to dive in to Linux as my main.
The reasons I personally know are “I have to use an app for work, there is no interoperable alternative, I have no leverage to replace that entire ecosystem and it won’t run with wine” and “It’s a company-issued device where I have no rights to change anything anyway.” Combined, they make the reason that my work Laptop runs Win11, but my private PC is Linux through and through. I’d like to be able to use said app on my private PC too, but if it doesn’t, no big deal.
Right? I tried to switch my primary computer (framework laptop) to Linux earlier this year and ended up going back to windows after I had absolute nightmares with my type-c KVM. Coupled with performance issues while gaming (and the absolute hassle of having to force games to use my graphics card). Add in whatever random issues I was getting trying to remote into other windows machines on my domain (for CAD work). My day job is in software engineering/ programming, so I’m not exactly a stranger to digging through documentation and fixing computer issues, but spending time fixing my computer instead of using it got old pretty quick.
Perfectly happy with Linux in my HomeLab and on my steamdeck though!
The Linux kernel not having a stable driver ABI is why Linux will never amount to anything outside of some embedded and server applications.
— Maya Posch, author of the submitted article
I guess maybe that’s their reason.
I just switched to Linux mint as a HTPC and it works great! Wine and Bottles bridged most of the gaps in software availability.
Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 10 months ago
Little Brother is a novel about a future dystopia where copyright laws have been allowed free rein to destroy people’s lives.
It’s legislated that only “secure” hardware is allowed, but hardware is by definition fixed, which means that every time a vulnerability is found - which is inevitable - there is a hardware recall. So the black market is full of hardware which is proven to have jailbreaking vulnerabilities.
Just a glimpse of where all this “trusted”, “secure” computing might lead.
As a short video I saw many years ago explained on the concept: “trust always depends on mutuality, and they already decided not to trust you, so why should you trust them?”