Self-Driving Teslas Are Fatally Striking Motorcyclists More Than Any Other Brand: New Analysis

Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨KayLeadfoot@fedia.io⁩ to ⁨technology@lemmy.world⁩

https://fuelarc.com/news-and-features/self-driving-teslas-are-fatally-striking-motorcyclists-more-than-any-other-brand-new-analysis/

TL;DR: Self-Driving Teslas Rear-End Motorcyclists, Killing at Least 5

Brevity is the spirit of wit, and I am just not that witty. This is a long article, here is the gist of it:

The NHTSA’s self-driving crash data reveals that Tesla’s self-driving technology is, by far, the most dangerous for motorcyclists, with five fatal crashes that we know of.
This issue is unique to Tesla. Other self-driving manufacturers have logged zero motorcycle fatalities with the NHTSA in the same time frame.
The crashes are overwhelmingly Teslas rear-ending motorcyclists.

Read our full analysis as we go case-by-case and connect the heavily redacted government data to news reports and police documents.

Oh, and read our thoughts about what this means for the robotaxi launch that is slated for Austin in less than 60 days.

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captainastronaut@seattlelunarsociety.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Tesla self driving is never going to work well enough without sensors - cameras are not enough. It’s fundamentally dangerous and should not be driving unsupervised (or maybe at all).

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- ascense@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Most frustrating thing is, as far as I can tell, Tesla doesn’t even have binocular vision, which makes all the claims about humans being able to drive with vision only even more blatantly stupid. At least humans have depth perception. And supposedly their goal is to outperform humans?
  
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  - TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Tesla’s argument of “well human eyes are like cameras therefore we shouldn’t use LiDAR” is so fucking dumb.
    
    Human eyes have good depth perception and absolutely exceptional dynamic range and focusing ability. They also happen to be linked up to a rapid and highly efficient super computer far outclassing anything that humanity has ever devised, certainly more so than any computer added to a car.
    
    And even with all those advantages humans have, we still crash from time to time and make smaller mistakes regularly.
    
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- scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  These fatalities are a Tesla business advantage. Every one is a data point they can use to program their self-driving intelligence. No one has killed as many as Tesla, so no one knows more about what kills people than Tesla. We don’t have to turn this into a bad thing just because they’re killing people /s
  
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- Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  they originally had lidar, or radar, but musk had them disabled in the older models.
  
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  - NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    They had radar. Tesla has never had lidar, but they do use lidar to ground truth their camera depth / velocity calculations.
    
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Buffalox@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Hey guys relax! It’s all part of the learning experience of Tesla FSD.
Some of you may die, but that a sacrifice I’m willing to make.

Regards
Elon Musk
CEO of Tesla

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- NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  P.S. Volunteers needed for the Mars mission as well.
  
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  - echodot@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Is musk going, because I vote to be on whatever planet he isn’t.
    
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  - JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    News on the first mission: Meteoroid crashes into full flying SpaceX rocket, killing all aboard.
    
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- Gammelfisch@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  +1 for you. However, replace “Regards” with the more appropriate words from the German language. The first with an S, and the second an H. I will not type that shit, fuck Leon and I hope the fucking Nazi owned Tesla factory outside of Berlin closes.
  
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  - Buffalox@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes I’m not writing that shit, even in a sarcastic post. Bu I get your drift.
    On the other hand VW group is absolutely killing it on EV recently IMO.
    They totally dominate top 10 EV here in Denmark, with 7 out of 10 top selling models!!
    They are competitively priced, and they are the best combination of quality and range in their price ranges.
    
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Gork@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Lidar needs to be a mandated requirement for these systems.

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- echodot@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Or at least something other than just cameras. Even can just adding ultrasonic senses to the front would be an improvement.
  
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  - NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The range on ultrasonics is too short. They only ever get used for parking type situations, not driving on the roadways.
    
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- HK65@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Honestly, emergency braking with LIDAR is mature and cheap enough at this point that is should be mandated for all new cars.
  
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  - Nastybutler@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    No, emergency braking with radar is mature and cheap. Lidar is very expensive and relatively nascent
    
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- DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  How about we disallow it completely, until it’s proven to be SAFER than a human driver. Because, why even allow it if it’s only as safe?
  
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  - explodicle@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    As an engineer, I strongly agree with requirements based on empirical results rather than requiring a specific technology. The latter never ages well. Thank you.
    
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  - scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    This sounds good until you realize how unsafe human drivers are. People won’t accept a self-driving system that’s only 50% safer than humans, because that will still be a self-driving car that kills 20,000 Americans a year. Look at the outrage right here, and we’re nowhere near those numbers. I also don’t see anyone comparing these numbers to human drivers on any per-mile basis. Waymos compared favorably to human drivers in their most recently released data. Does anyone even know where Teslas stand compared to human drivers?
    
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0x0@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is news? Fortnine talked about it two years ago.

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- LesserAbe@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It’s helpful to remember that not everyone has seen the same stories you have. If we want something to change, like regulators not allowing dangerous products, then raising public awareness is important. Expressing surprise that not everyone knows about something can be counterproductive.
  
  Going beyond that, wouldn’t the new information here be the statistics?
  
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- AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It could be two motorcycles side by side.
  
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- explodicle@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It can’t even perceive the depth of the lights?
  
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  - 0x0@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Not with cameras alone, no.
    
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  - AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Why not? It’s got multiple cameras so could judge distances the same way humans do.
    
    However there have been both hardware and software updates since most of those, so the critical question is how much of a problem is it still? The article had no info or speculation on that
    
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- EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The argument is that humans can drive with just 2 eyes, so cameras are enough. I disagree with this position, given that the limitations of a camera-only system. But that’s what it is.
  
  Different sensors excel at different tasks and different conditions, and cameras are not always it.
  
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lnxtx@feddit.nl ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Stop dehumanizing drivers who killed people.
Feature, wrongly called, Full Self-Driving, shall be supervised at any time.

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- SouthEndSunset@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If you’re going to say your car has “full self driving”, it should have that, not “full self driving (but needs monitoring.)” or “full self driving (but it disconnects 2 seconds before impact.)”.
  
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- Ulrich@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I think it’s important to call out inattentive drivers while also calling out the systems and false advertising that may lead them to become less attentive.
  
  If these systems were marketed as “driver assistance systems” instead of “full self driving”, certainly more people would pay attention. The fact that they’ve been allowed to get away with this blatant false advertising is astonishing.
  
  They’re also obviously not adequately monitoring for driver attentiveness.
  
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9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Sounds like NHTSA needs a visit from DOGE!

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- RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Gotta get rid of the evidence.
  
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AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I imagine bicyclists must be effected as well if they’re on the road (as we should be, technically). As somebody who has already been literally inches away from being rear-ended, this makes me never want to bike in the US again.

Time to go to Netherlands.

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- poopkins@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  *affected
  
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  - NikkiDimes@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Affectively, does it realy mater if someone has slite misstakes in there righting?
    
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  - nulluser@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Thank you for your service.
    
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  - AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Image
    
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- EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  this makes me never want to bike in the US again.
  
  I live close enough to work for it to be a very reasonable biking distance. But there is no safe route. A high-speed “stroad” with a narrow little bike lane. It would only be a matter of time before some asshole with their face in their phone drifts into me.
  
  I am deeply resentful of our automobile-centric infrastructure in the U.S. It’s bad for the environment, bad for our wallets, bad for our waistlines, and bad for physical safety.
  
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- xor@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  human driving cars still target bicyclists on purpose so i don’t know see how teslas could be any worse…
  
  p.s. painting a couple lines on the side of the road does not make a safe bike lane… they need a physical barrier separating the road from them… like how curbs separate the road from sidewalks…
  
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  - AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I mean yeah, I just said above that someone almost killed me. They were probably a human driver. But that’s a “might happen, never know.” If self driving cars are rear-ending people, that’s an inherent artifact of it’s programming, even though it’s not intentionally programmed to do that.
    
    So it’s like, things were already bad. I already do not feel safe doing any biking anymore. But as self driving cars become more prevalent, that threat upgrades to a kind of defacto, “Oh, these vast stretches of land are places where only cars and trucks are allowed. Everything else is roadkill waiting to happen.”
    
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Visstix@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Why is self-driving even allowed?

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- kameecoding@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Because muh freedum, EU are a bunch of commies for not allowing this awesome innovation on their roads
  
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- Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Robots don’t get drunk, or distracted, or text, or speed…
  
  Anecdotally, I think the Waymos are more courteous than human drivers. Though waymo seems to be the best ones out so far, idk about the other services.
  
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  - brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Don’t waymos have remote drivers that take control in unexpected situationsml?
    
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- Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Because the only thing worse than self driving is human driving.
  
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- UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Bribes to local governments and police, mostly.
  
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- Bytemeister@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Because the march of technological advancement is inevitable?
  
  In light of recent (and let’s face it, long ago cases) Tesla’s “Full Self Driving” needs to be downgraded to level 2 at best.
  
  Level 2: Partial Automation
  
  The vehicle can handle both steering and acceleration/deceleration, but the driver must remain engaged and ready to take control.
  
  Pretty much the same level as other brands self driving feature.
  
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  - AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The other brands, such as Audi and VW, work much better than Tesla’s system. Their LIDAR systems aren’t blinded by fog, and rain the way the Tesla is. Someone recently tested an Audi with its system against a Tesla with its system. The Tesla failed either 3/5 or 4/5 tests. The Audi passed 3/5 or 4/5. Neither system is perfect, but the one that doesn’t rely on just cameras is clearly superior.
    
    Edit: it was Mark Rober.
    
    youtu.be/IQJL3htsDyQ
    
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Substance_P@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’ll just leave this here.

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- jim3692@discuss.online ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I had ignored the video, as I didn’t expect Mark to expose Tesla
  
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Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
the cybertruck is sharp enough to cut a deer in half, surely a biker is just as vulnerable.

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- RagingRobot@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I wonder if it’s happened yet
  
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  - Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    There was an article where he sliced a deer in half
    
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DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Five years ago, you could not have brought this up without Musk simps defending it.

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- Hominine@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There seems to be people/bots down-voting critical takes up and down this very thread. What chumps.
  
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- Akasazh@feddit.nl ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  On Reddit perhaps
  
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keesrif@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
On a quick read, I didn’t see the struck motorcycles listed. Last I heard, a few years ago, was that this mainly affected motorcycles with two rear lights that are spaced apart and fairly low to the ground. I believe this is mostly true for Harleys.

The theory I recall was that this rear light configuration made the Tesla assume it was looking (remember, only cameras without depth data) at a car that was further down the road - and acceleration was safe as a result. It miscategorised the motorcycle so badly that it misjudged it’s position entirely.

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- jonne@infosec.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Whatever it is, it’s unacceptable and they should really ban Tesla’s implementation until they fix some fundamental issues.
  
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- ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The ridiculous thing is, it has 3 cameras pointing forward, you only need 2 to get stereoscopic depth perception with cameras…why the fuck are they not using that!?
  
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  - amorpheus@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That seems like a spectacular oversight. How is it supposed to replicate human vision without depth perception?
    
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- treadful@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Still probably a good idea to keep an eye on that Tesla behind you. Or just let them past.
  
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- 0x0@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This video proposes that theory.
  
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  - keesrif@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Ah, thanks for jogging my memory
    
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SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Trucks in general have gotten so big they are pedestrian deathtraps

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IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Remember, you have the right to self-defence, against both rogue robots and rogue humans.

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werefreeatlast@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Every captcha…can you see the motorcycle? I would be afraid if they wanted all the squares with small babies or maybe just regular folk…can you pick all the hottie’s? Which of these are body parts?

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expatriado@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
as daily rider, i must add having a tesla behind to the list of road hazards to look out

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SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s because the system has to rely on visual cues, since Tesla’s have no radar. The system looks at the tail light when it’s dark to gauge the distance from the vehicle. And since some bikes have a double light the system thinks it’s a car in front of them that is far away, when in reality it’s a bike up close. Also remember the ai is trained on human driving behavior which Tesla records from their customers. And we all know how well the average human drives around two wheeled vehicles.

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PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is another reason I’ll never drive a motorcycle. Fuck that shit.

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Litebit@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Elon needs to take responsibility for their death.

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Redex68@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Cuz other self driving cars use LIDAR so it’s basically impossible for them to not realise that a bike is there.

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Critical_Thinker@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Let’s get this out of the way: Felon Musk is a nazi asshole.

Anyway, It should be criminal to do these comparisons without showing human drivers statistics for reference. I’m so sick of articles that leave out hard data. Show me deaths per billion miles driven for tesla, competitors, and humans.

Then there’s shit like the boca raton crash, where they mention the car going 100 in a 45 and killing a motorcyclist, and then go on to say the only way to do that is to physically use the gas pedal and that it disables emergency breaking. Is it really a self driving car at that point when a user must actively engage to disable portions of the automation? If you take an action to override stopping, it’s not self driving. Stopping is a key function of how self driving tech self drives. It’s not like the car swerved to another lane and nailed someone, the driver literally did this.

Bottom line I look at the media around self driving tech as sensationalist. Danger drives clicks. Felon Musk is a nazi asshole, but self driving tech isn’t made by the guy. it’s made by engineers. I wouldn’t buy a tesla unless he has no stake in the business, but I do believe people are far more dangerous behind the wheel in basically all typical driving scenarios.

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misteloct@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’m wondering how that stacks up to human drivers. Since the data is redacted I’m guessing not well at all.

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kreskin@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I wonder if a state court judge could mandate its use as unsafe?

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lka1988@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Good to know, I’ll stay away from those damn things when I ride.

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MedicPigBabySaver@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Musk = POS Nazi. Who couldn’t care less about people being killed by his shit companies.

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arrakark@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
What bike is that in the photo?

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the_three_tomatoes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You mean they are providing organ donations more than any other car. Silver lining. /s

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Ulrich@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’m not sure how that’s possible considering no one manufactures self-driving cars that I know of. Certainly not Tesla.

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aeternum@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
if only there was a government department to investigate these kinds of things… Too soon?

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