Hey Proton how about you quit privacy-washing and actually prioritize and release feature parity products for Linux so your customers aren’t being herded onto windows’ data harvesting platform just so they can use your supposedly privacy forward products
Proton Mail says that the new Outlook app for Windows is Microsoft's new data collection service
Submitted 9 months ago by throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
PlantObserver@lemmy.world 9 months ago
helenslunch@feddit.nl 9 months ago
The Linux Experiment recently interviewed the CEO who answered this question.
Basically it’s the same as anything else. Linux requires more effort to code for due to its variety of distributions, and has a significantly smaller userbase.
In short, don’t blame Proton, blame the (lack of) users.
1995ToyotaCorolla@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I mean, can’t you just package your app in flatpack or even snap? Bam, your app works on 99% of distributions for little effort. That’s what Spotify does, and I’d argue they have even less incentive to support Linux than proton does
mlg@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Variety of distributions doesn’t affect the effort in coding, it adds overhead for package management. Only rarely does it require the developer to add some extra code for either an edge case or some specific library requirement.
On top of that, Flatpak and AppImage exist to solve this issue if you don’t want to deal with it.
This is a pretty rich statement coming from Proton who has very publicly given out “private” info about its users to law enforcement without even so much as a hint of resistance. I doubt they would want to spend any resources on cross platform if they don’t even back up their claim about true privacy.
Even zoom has a lazy script that packages their app in literally every possible format possible because it runs the exact same on every distro. It is not that hard. Literally the only way this doesn’t work if you hired some 3rd party MSFT dev to create some insane C++ app with pure Windows API calls instead of using a library.
GoodEye8@lemm.ee 9 months ago
I think the bigger issue is the variety of distros that end up not being compatible. Even if you overall have a lot of Linux users if they, for the sake of argument, distribute evenly between all distros then it’s still a lot of effort to code. The only difference is that the argument will change from “Linux has a small userbase” to “Distribution X has a small userbase”.
Linux doesn’t just need more users to be worthwhile to develop for, it also needs a distro agnostic solution to run software. That or significantly reducing (or streamlining) the amount of distros so the developers would have far less configurations to account for.
BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 9 months ago
I finally said screw it and am leaving Proton for a proper paid service. I never upgraded Proton to a paid tier because it never matured enough for me to use for real. I never once migrated contacts over to it (just a couple people who understood I was testing it).
Yea, so there’s a connection to my credit card. At least it’s with a professional org that has proper modern mail management (something post-2000), and gives you tools to manage your email.
I really wanted Proton to work out so I could recommend it to friends and family. But it’s a terrible user experience. I missed 50 emails because it keeps moving them to spam even after I set the sender as not spam. Oh, and spam management requires (according to support) logging into the web, not thru the mobile client. 🤦♂️
Can you imagine telling a customer this with a straight face and not seeing a problem with it? I’m using your app and can’t manage spam?
Dehydrated@lemmy.world 9 months ago
What part of Windows (or Microsoft software in general) is not a data collection service?
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 9 months ago
If you aren’t using an insider edition then Notepad is still safe
d3Xt3r@lemmy.world 9 months ago
… for now. They’ve already replaced the old Notepad with a bloated UWP version, so it probably won’t be long before it starts sending telemetry as well.
Dehydrated@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Impressive
IndefiniteBen@leminal.space 9 months ago
No shit. There’s a reason they are killing the nice and simple Windows Mail app; it allows you to sync with your email without Microsoft servers between.
Also, the biggest issue for me is the UX. I use outlook for my work email and like to separate my work and personal life, so soon I just won’t have an app for my personal email on my PC.
If anyone knows of a similar windows mail app with good touch support and without such a traditional mouse designed UI, please share it.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
The new thunderbird UI looked neat and modern.
bob_lemon@feddit.de 9 months ago
They’re still working out some kinks, but yes, the new UI of Thunderbird 115+ is pretty good.
IndefiniteBen@leminal.space 9 months ago
Isn’t that more of a replacement for Outlook? It doesn’t look designed around touch like the windows mail app.
GigglyBobble@kbin.social 9 months ago
I've been using Thunderbird since forever. It's not perfect but I like it better than bloated and laggy Outlook.
dgriffith@aussie.zone 9 months ago
I thought Thunderbird was getting increasingly shitty and slower/clunky, until I realised it was actually my ISP’s mail server getting increasingly shit. This became immediately obvious the day that emails started taking 12-18 hours to land in my inbox. Reallllll handy for those time limited account reset emails.
Transferred my IMAP inbox to my own domain, everything is now awesome again.
IndefiniteBen@leminal.space 9 months ago
But better for touch and simpler than windows mail?
I am only using Outlook for work email.
derin@lemmy.beru.co 9 months ago
I’ve been paying for mailspring for a few years now, and I love it. It has touch and gesture support, is open source, and is available on Windows, MacOS, and Linux.
Its paid plan includes some nice features like email tracking - which you can’t really get from just a simple client and (needs a server to track who has opened an email and when) - and id lookup, for things like quickly seeing the LinkedIn profile of a sender not in your contacts list.
Definitely my favorite desktop client by a wide margin, and one I would recommend wholeheartedly.
TurboLag@lemmings.world 9 months ago
Is it a local-only client, or does it download email on their cloud servers first?
hellequin67@lemm.ee 9 months ago
What especially galled me was as I was updating my laptop before flashing to Linux the new outlook will not work unless edge installed, I had just uninstalled that pile of garbage.
Ah well, at least pop_os works great 😃
Squizzy@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I really liked the mail app, the outlook one sucks
Otherwise_Direction7@monyet.cc 9 months ago
As a guy who runs Windows 10 LTSC on one of the machine, yeah I agree it do suck ass
Not only it’s UI design doesn’t fit at all with overall Windows 10 UI design, it also runs significantly slower than the old Windows Mail app
And in the typical Microsoft fashion, they’ll shoved that garbage into everyone’s throat despite nobody ever asked for it
Fuck that
acockworkorange@mander.xyz 9 months ago
If you’re still using Windows 11, they’re still collecting your data. Sure, no need to give them more, but maybe that’s the push you need to move elsewhere. There are really good options.
IndefiniteBen@leminal.space 9 months ago
I’m waiting for Microsoft to bring back the option to move the taskbar to the side of the screen before upgrading to windows 11 from 10.
I may switch to Linux if IT forces the update and I can’t stop it.
madelena@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
Wino Mail has a pretty good UI similar to the Mail app. You can find it in the Store.
Otherwise_Direction7@monyet.cc 9 months ago
I don’t know any of the alternatives that have similar UI to the Windows Mail app
But it is possible to get back the old Windows Mail app by obtaining the dumped package file for the app (either by looking for it online or leeching it from the official Microsoft Store website using store.adguard.ru) and then install it using Powershell
At least that’s what I do with one of my systems running Windows 10 LTSC, since that version of Windows doesn’t came with MS Store or Windows Mail pre-installed
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Outlook honestly was not that bad for a while, but of course Microsoft does what Microsoft does. I’ve been using Thunderbird for about a year now and it is very full featured coming directly from outlook.
DJDarren@thelemmy.club 9 months ago
I use Outlook on my work Mac, and am forever amazed at how hard they pushed on getting me to switch to “New” Outlook, but how many features they never bothered to port over. Like, I can’t export my mailbox without having to switch it back to ‘old’ Outlook. Calendars straight up don’t work half the time and there’s no obvious button to switch from a list of events for the month, back to a monthly calendar view.
Outlook for Mac is a fucking mess. I really do need to switch over to Thunderbird.
Squizzy@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Mail was so clean thunderbird isn’t as nice
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 9 months ago
For me, Mail was a little anemic. It’s nice to have a more full-featured option, but I agree that it’s a mistake for MS to can the Mail App that met 90% of people’s needs.
LodeMike@lemmy.today 9 months ago
What was the hardest thing about the transition?
nul9o9@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Personally, i got pretty used to the focused view from Outlook. Other than missing that, it’s been pretty great.
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Like all open source software, there’s more of a build it yourself ethos. I was able to customize it to my liking to replace most of the functions of Outlook. Someone here mentioned the focused View which was hit or miss to be honest, but it did a good job of filtering out most of the nonsense.
It took a little bit of time to get the settings, layout, and add-ons that I wanted for my workflow. The best thing about switching is honestly how quick it is, how easy it is to have all my emails open in one window with tabs, and above and beyond all, a super powerful super quick search. I feel like modern searches across all software are doing away with Boolean operations, thinking they can replace it with AI rankings. A straightforward shirt that lets me find exactly what I’m looking for and nothing I’m not feels like a superpower in this day and age.
lazynooblet@lazysoci.al 9 months ago
Does thunderbird support exchange protocols or just IMAP
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I use if for exchange and gmail - it’s pretty robust. Plus, they are approaching completion of their mobile app which has similar capabilities
popekingjoe@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I mean… Yeah.
webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 9 months ago
Thats what i thought but holy shit its so much worse.
Its not even data that is needed for outlook but like pretty much everything on your pc.
including your username and password, send in clear text
I agree with the article’s statement. How the fuck is this legal.
Smokeydope@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Wait what I just thought this was another round of whining and clutching pearls over microsoft stuff being spyware but thats actually messed up, theres no way thats not a HIPPA violation
Brkdncr@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
It’s basically gmail. It’s a web/email server that you give your creds over to . It has an offline mode that I guess makes it an app.
Yeah they read your shit.
WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 9 months ago
For consumers, yeah they scan your shit to sell advertisements to you. For Business customers —that could get real illegal real quick.
Brkdncr@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
MS has much better privacy for licensed customers. It’s well documented and in their MSA.
Nahaelem@lemmy.world 9 months ago
As if the old outlook app wasn’t
Dagamant@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Yeah, that update was the final push that moved me to Linux on my primary computer. I’ve used Linux for about 20 years on everything that wasn’t my gaming PC and between the advancements made by Valve and the increasing invasive nature of Windows put an end to my relationship with Microsoft.
OrangeCorvus@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I am aware this comes from a competitor and they want to go all out. However, what is unclear to me, does this also happen to paying users?
For my small business I use Office 365 Business Essentials, whatever it’s called now, the cheapest one. Been using it for many years and for the price/features, it’s pretty unbeatable. I use the new Outlook on my workstation since a few months, it’s pretty slow and not feature complete but was ok. I’m in the EU and haven’t been prompted with that window where it talks about advertisers. Will check Monday if I see a list of advertisers but I think for paid users it’s not the same.
For personal mail, I use Thunderbird, I even donated to them. I like it but would have been great if it had a view like Outlook. At the moment it has table view and cards view. Wish the cards view would more customizable.
PMmeYourPenis@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Proton has a business plan, too.
OrangeCorvus@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I know but I don’t see any benefits to switching. It’s a little more money for fewer features and it’s still a somewhat new product.
I’ve read some reviews and a lot of people complained about their mails not being sent/received. Might be a limited thing but my email is working so I don’t feel brave enough to start messing around with it and clients not getting my emails.
randomaside@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
TBH when I got this exact pop up on my last windows laptop (dell xps13) I actually panicked and installed PopOS on it.
I didn’t feel like distro hopping, I just needed it to work. I guess that shows how I feel about PopOS at the moment.
Lemminary@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I always chuckle at the game PopOS because in Spanish that means poops. I’m sorry.
kworpy@lemm.ee 9 months ago
It’s almost as if Microsoft doesn’t do that already!
Ugurcan@lemmy.world 9 months ago
On that topic, is there an alternative for a mail client + calendar for Win 11 that doesn’t look and feel like a Windows 95 exe named Thunderbird?
Kushia@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
Thunderbird did get a UI overhaul semi-recently so it might offer what you’re after now.
optissima@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
2xsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de 9 months ago
baseless_discourse@mander.xyz 9 months ago
To be fair, this is the concept art, the real thing looks more like this
thunderbird interface showcase from official site
certainly not Windows 95, but not as good as concept art. Yet people still complains “a lot” because it breaks theor two decade old CSS.
pufferfisherpowder@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Chobbes@lemmy.world 9 months ago
There’s surprisingly few standalone email clients for normal people on desktop platforms as far as I know.
JIMMERZ@lemm.ee 9 months ago
I’ve been using Thunderbird and loving it. They’re developing a mobile app now as well!
Napain@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
PROTON WORKS WITH THE FEDS PROTON WORKS WITH THE FEDS PROTON WORKS WITH THE FEDS PROTON WORKS WITH THE FEDS ProtonMail Gives Up Logs on User, Then Scrubs Website of No IP Logging Claims it gave out thousands of ip adresses over the years
FaceDeer@kbin.social 9 months ago
I'm surprised that the developer of a privacy-focused product would accuse its competitor of not being good for privacy.
erranto@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Unlike proton mail , microsoft offers basic IMAP POP functionality of its desktop app for free, Maybe proton should offer the same “essential” email functionality for free before criticizing Microsoft. there are many ways to monetize a service without rendering the free version legless.
rusticus@lemm.ee 9 months ago
As someone with an iCloud account, every time I try to use Outlook it randomly deletes emails from my iCloud account. I’ve posted this multiple times on Microsoft support site with others confirming and since it’s been more than year with no acknowledgment or fix I am convinced it’s a feature not a bug. YMMV.
maniel@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
Of course it is, it doesn’t support pop3, only IMAP through their server
linearchaos@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Same as it’s always been
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world 9 months ago
The Magic 8-Ball was right all along.
rottingleaf@lemmy.zip 9 months ago
No sh*t.
But, TBF, email as a system doesn’t need ProtonMail too to be kinda private.
PGP, mixmasters, all those things born around the same time as me.
That’s if we lived in a world where “key party” weren’t perceived as related to sex.
MisterFrog@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Is there a solid alternative that isn’t as prohibitively expensive as Proton? It’s like, stupid expensive, even for basic email service with very small storage
crystalmerchant@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Yeah no shit, and you do think I have a single goddamn bit of influence over my corporation’s choice of email client??
remotelove@lemmy.ca 9 months ago
They can leech all the data they want from my employer. I don’t give a fuck. Never use company assets for personal business.
Just be a little more careful with your own stuff, s’all.
requiem@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Depends on your sector of work. Imagine you’re a therapist or a lawyer…
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
Why is your corp using the free mail app in windows??
freebee@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Because it’s free in windows.
DmMacniel@feddit.de 9 months ago
pretty sure when you bring that up to your company, that another company will have access to internal communication, that they will do something against it. It’s a willing data breach.
Yoz@lemmy.world 9 months ago
There’s no other company with all the required certification that can replace Microsoft office suite so all corporations are stuck with it and tbh nobody cares.
cr1cket@sopuli.xyz 9 months ago
Let me introduce you to davmail.sourceforge.net
Yes it works pretty fine with stupid O365. You can basically use whatever mailclient you desire with it.
oce@jlai.lu 9 months ago
Corporations will just have a contract that guarantees no harmful use of their data and not care about the details. They just want the lines to be able to sue if there’s an issue in the future. And honestly, I don’t see the issue with companies agreeing to collect data on each other. The issue is with private life, which should never be shared on company tools.
ElvenMithril@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
well, as far as you use it just for your work, who cares, right? It’s the same as I’d never use Lastpass, my corp use it and even offered it for our personal use :D thanks, but no thanks! For personal use I would never use any microsoft solution.