Submitted 1 year ago by tigerjerusalem@lemmy.world to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
You know, DOGE, fascist president and corporations dictating what people can do, institutions being ruined, laws being ignored. Is there any way out of that or is it over? Is the USA done?
Going from decline to fall. To be fair it took Rome 200 years or so I’m sure the US will limp on for a while yet. But it won’t ever be what it was again.
Short answer? Yes. Long answer? Absolutely.
All states should leave the us now ASAP.
Except maybe New York and Florida, because they have given him shelter.
The silver lining here is that with now 8 years of abolishing civil/workers rights, technology and social development being suppressed and Americans falling so objectively behind in most measurable fields, hopefully Americans can get over their blatantly false sense of exceptionalism and become comfortable just being another part of the world.
technology (…) being suppressed
What technology or technology development is being suppressed?
The USA are still leading in most technological fields and have a dominant position.
The US does not have a dominant position in:
microchips.
batteries.
solar.
material science.
fusion.
energy.
automotive.
displays.
The list goes on.
If you still think the USA is leading in tech, you are sorely misinformed about the state of the technological world(to be fair, it Is startling how rapidly the US has fallen out of grace in many of these technological fields).
The US is either barely clinging to previous legacies of prowess in tech fields to match other countries or falling behind rapidly, and without innovative latitude, federal grants or funding for research, they’re falling behind even further.
the US does not have the technological edge it once did; scientists, the department of defense, everybody in the know agrees and have been making public statements about how quickly the US is falling behind in critical scientific and technological fields.
Yea. I’m sure they will be humbled like the people of North Korea, who think their supernatural leader invented hamburgers and the electric guitar.
The average empire lasts 250 years, for the US that year is 2026. The US has been in a downward spiral for decades.
It’s fucking toast
A lot of people are discussing the legal or revolutionary frameworks, but there’s a very human story to all of this. The government is run by people, and people are human. They make mistakes, backstab one another, get sick. They compete for different goals & subvert. It’s politics.
Morality is about respecting other moral agents, but it’s also about self-defeating principles. If you constantly lie, then there is no trust. Without trust, there’s room for speculation, rumor, & fear. Everyone on eggshells constantly. That’s partially why these fascist systems aren’t sustainable. However, as the world has become interconnected, so have the global elite. Fascism isn’t just here: it’s in a lot of places. There’s likely secret (and not so secret) actors pulling those strings, not to sound conspiratorial.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction in physics. Like others have said, I’m not sure about my faith in the USA, as it is today: 50 states and some territories holding “together”. The culture and economy of the Northeast is vastly different than the Southeast. The USA absolutely had its hand in much of global politics over the last 100 years. Russia was the USSR in the 80s (~40 years ago); I think this is our “equal and opposite” moment of a world power fracturing. My expectation is the USA splits up, but I’m not sure what comes next. I don’t know if that’s “screwed”, but it’s not as it is today.
Yes.
I’m the short term not much will change and no one will react. By the time they want to react, they’ll play into a fascist crackdown.
Look into the Business Plot. This is basically the result of a century of planning between business interests and religious fanatics with too much money.
As long as capitalism is propagandized as a good thing, civilization will continue to face this issue of the few exploiting the many.
Do you believe every human deserves the same rights and dignities? It’s not possible to make a cell phone without relying on slave labor in the supply chains.
Profit is unpaid labor. As long as we normalize giving at the profits to those that already have everything, civilisations will continue to implode until one makes a mistake of such hubris everyone dies. Look at PFAS. One day we will unleash something we can’t contain and we’ll be dead before we can detect it or treat it.
Our species simply will not survive because we’re too eager to shit where we sleep just so we don’t have to walk all the way to the bathroom.
What does “done” mean to you, and how possibly can it be final?
No. In fact it’s opposite. Doge is a good thing. Trump is not an actual fascist despite claims to the contrary, wasteful institutions are being curtailed, laws are being enforced.
The only real issue is that journalists are a bunch of rage baiting hacks, and y’all eat up it like it’s Thanksgiving dinner.
The only thing I’m actually worried about is when the Democrats take back power, if they’ll turn into tyrants. But I don’t think that’s particularly likely either.
You are the enemy of freedom and democracy. You are a false patriot. You are a cancer
lol…
Trump is a textbook fascist.
What more do you need?
Not necessarily.
There are still legal routes, the chances of congress not laying down on the job, etc.
Then, you’ve got the first line of citizen action, protests and non violent direct action combined with people helping each other until the legal stuff has a chance to work.
Beyond that, right now, across the country, small groups are trying to organize. Most of them as a form of more assertive resistance and/or a safety net for trans people, immigrants, and other targets of the current administration.
There are also smaller groups than that organizing for the possibility of having to fight.
That does include people just as batshit as the more rabid right wing, but most of them are less eager than the crazies to get involved in an asymmetric civil war. So they aren’t very visible.
But there are people working at all levels to resist and turn things around.
The way out is for everyone that can to be ready. To take risks to protect each other, and to do what they can when they can.
The funny things is americans were like “We need guns to protect ourselves from tyrants.” But of course, the ones with the guns are precisely the ones siding with tyranny.
Lots of Americans have guns. Not just conservatives.
Oh yeah then explain this *gestures broadly at everything*
I mean, they wont do anything until the economy crashes and the leopards eat their face.
The last time the economy crashed, the US got 40 years of progressvism.
just waiting for the economy to crash 👀
Power market’s going to get real funky in over the next 6 months as utilities run out of runway on their renewable programs.
Bring a shitty person is multidisciplinary, apparently.
The constitution was created for the sole purpose of containing a tyrant and mitigating any damage they could do.
Its never been tested on a real tyrant before though, so I guess we’ll see how well it accomplishes that. It uh, isnt looking too great though.
it is so donaldover 😔
2nd amendment Americans. Shoot your fascist orange government rapist leader right between his beady little eyes.
Trumps time has come.
Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there’ll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland? In fifty years’, thirty years’, ten years’ time the world will be very nearly back on its old course. History always has a great weight of inertia.
-Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies)
Been thinking about this quote a lot lately. The fact that Trump is so popular shows that he’s just the symptom of a deeper, possibly terminal disease.
This is the thing making me lean more toward leaving than trying to change things. Even if Trump were magically impeached today, and our election system were left as near-intact as it is, somebody just like him could be just as likely to be elected in the next cycle. And odds are he’s going to pull off rigging the system to make sure that happens by then.
I think that on a long term scale, to get at the root, something needs to be done about the media machine behind him. Culture eats policy for breakfast.
The fact that Trump is so popular shows that he’s just the symptom of a deeper, possibly terminal disease.
Capitalism
Nobody is saying it would solve the problem but it might make me feel a little better
Trump is just the convenient caricature of a puppet pushed forward to be the face and disorganise everything. When he dies he’ll be replaced by someone else capable of filling that role. It wouldn’t surprise me if the follow-up person is already known in their circles. Trump is old and messed up. The propaganda rocheting him up can just as easily shoot him down. He is here to do damage and to disrupt and corrupt the system. He’s here to weed out the failsafes against fascism/monarchy so a new political model can take over. When he’s done enough, someone else will step forward to rebuild and ‘repair the damage’ but only in such a way that the fascist/oligarchy gains more power and the majority of people lose more power.
Not that I’m opposed to the idea on principle, but realistically that kind of long wolf adventurism would only make things worse.
He’s old and doesn’t have much time left. The really problematic people are all around him and they are many.
And yet in all their decades none of them rallied the base like he did.
Remove Trump and you remove most of the power.
Yeah he’s like the very obvious and prominant pus-filled boil on a body riddled with disease. He isn’t the cause of the disease, just one of the symptoms.
“He who saves his country has committed no crime.” -Donald Trump (reading a post-it note handed to him by Felon Musk, quoting Napoleon, or something)
inb4 moderation
Any media that silences it is in support of Trump.
Shitty time to be alive when it’s no longer cool to shoot Nazis.
We got all this dooming 8 years ago as well. We were fine then, we will be fine now.
Upvoted for the optimism. Let’s hope you’re right.
They literally attempted a coup when they lost the election, so no, everything was not “fine”.
The precious norms!
We were not fine then and neither are we now
I believe the US is a failed state. trump just decided that himself and his AG are the only people who can decide which laws apply to the executive, and ordered the termination of all remaining Biden era US Attorneys. I know we’ve been saying this a lot lately, but it feels like a mask off moment.
100% cooked bruh. Get the fuck out while you can if you here.
I’m not in the USA, but I have friends that lives there and in Canada. I’m worried for them.
I mean, don’t be so defeatist. Thats what they want you to feel.
We still have a last line of defence: Federalism.
We’d just have to hope the Democratic governors have the spine to stand up against Federal tyranny when the time comes, when they use the military against the people. And it’s up to the people in the 50 State’s National Guard, and law enforcement, and the military to decide between the constitution and fascism.
As for the federal firings, that’s not something that state governments can do anything about, so that’s unstoppable. But if you are talking about soldiers on the streets nazi style, probably not happening yet. We still have a bit of time to change course.
I’ll tell you this: if the 2026 midterms elections is cancelled, or if republicans win both houses, there’s probably no hope (since the opposition usually gains during midterms). That’s just civil war, and you’ll have to hope the pro-constitution side wins the civil war.
TLDR: You’ll have to hope elections still exist, and hope that democrats win in 2026, hopefully both houses. And also they’ll have to win 2028 with a trifecta.
Honestly democrats have been spouting off about how dangerous republicans are but when push comes to shove they serve up the same bills but somehow even worse and them drink tea with the fascists.
The dems better get real fuckin lefty real quick if they ever want to win an election again. But they wontt, they’ll just emulate dump even more like they did with Reagan.
The last time the economy crashed, the US got 40 years of progressivism. Hopefully we get something out of this fucking bullshit
Hmmm, it seems the modern way for autocracies to deal with elections is to control the information space. I don’t see election being called off, but major social media platforms boosting one side while attenuating the other goes a long way. We know Musk is all in on this and the other big players like Zuckerberg & Co seem all too happy to oblige. Tiktok is an open ended question at this point.
Hmmm, it seems the modern way for autocracies to deal with elections is to control the information space.
So there is two different types (from how I understant it):
One is that elections are just completely fraudulent
The other has legitimate elections (as in, they actually count the votes and not make up numbers) but with a strong propaganda machine that favors the government.
Russia is the first type
Turkey is the second type
I think the USA would become more of a Turkey situation than a Russia situation
And it’s up to the people in the 50 State’s National Guard, and law enforcement, and the military to decide between the constitution and fascism.
Okay but you do remember we were here before and the national guard and law enforcement extremely made it very clear who’s side they were on… right?
Yes I know. They are right wing, they always have been.
Even when the miliary affirmed Biden’s victory, that was a right wing military doing so.
The questions is: How far will they go.
If you were talking about Jan 6, that’s because trump was in control of the national guard so he obviously didn’t call them in, since he plotted it himself.
Americans have always grew up learning the idea of “Rule of Law”. If trump (or whoever is president in 2028) cancels elections and they receive orders to march into polling stations to shut them down. That would conflict their worldview of “Rule of Law”.
Its one thing for trump to do a Jan 6. He has plausible deniability (at least in the eyes of the right-wing). He didn’t directly say “Go Storm The Capital”. He implied it. So its easy for the people in the militaey to say “well he didn’t intend for that to happen”.
Getting an order to literally stop voting from taking place will probably make them have a “Are we the baddies” moment.
Of couse, some will still obey orders. But not all. We just have to hope that enough will disobey orders
Centuries to build
Weeks to destroy.
Good luck.
Slavery is legal in prisons, we built a circus tent.
Clown country
To be fair, decades to destroy. This has been slowly culminating since before I was even born.
In the short term: Yes. Unless the US military decides to remove a sitting president but that is extremely unlikely.
In the long term: Yes, but also no. Fascism is extremely inefficient and expensive and the US is destroying its own economy and pushing away all of its allies and former trade partners. Things will get very rough but it will not last forever. There will be a lot of rebuilding that needs to be done.
Unfortunately this has been a long time coming. The United States has never really been united and it was only a matter of time before another possible civil war loomed on the horizon.
The US is less one country than the EU members are and we are a long way off of becoming one.
It is also with saying that America will be a different thing on the other end of this. No crumbling empire comes back the same.
Personally I think this resurgence is a highly specific cultural moment that is coming as religion dies off and the white population of America teeters toward minority status. Since the US birth rate began to decline (natural phenomenon that happens to all developed nations) its string immigration has held it up. But that has had an accumulating demographic effect. White people lost their official hegemony a long time ago but now they are facing the prospect of losing their simple majority and it scares the living shit out of them. It’s not just because privilege sees equality as oppression. It’s also because they know that they have treated others incredibly badly, and deserve to be castigated should they lose power.
That’s why this Trump admin is so ugly. It’s the death spasm of a dying culture. That’s why this Trump admin is hollow at the center: it’s backed by a group that has no future and can only harken back to the past.
This too shall pass, but at great cost. The USA is the greatest political prize there has ever been and it won’t be let go of lightly.
All these years, preppers may have been right. Having a well supplied fortress of your own can turn out to be very handy.
It’s still a shitty situation. Really what’s a shitty situation with an extra 20 kg of coffee in your basement, but still a shitty situation? The prepper fortress is a very unrealistic thing to try to strive for anyhow for anyone living in a city, majority of people. It’s the widespread doomsday mentality and the downward spiral of the conspiracy nutheads that got the USA where it is today anyhow… Good luck hanging on in your basement for 10 years. That’s easily how long it can take if it goes full fascist. Even then, hard to compare, the implosion of a nuclear armed superpower has only happened once before in history (Soviet Union), and that shit ain’t over yet either, Ukraine is a direct continuation of the process. So they’re like 35-ish years in, where USA seems to be heading now. Abandoning NATO is the equivalent of the implosion of the Warsaw Pact.
I would say it’s been coming since BEFORE the civil war.
People always take my words out of context when I say that life in general would have been better for everyone long term if the south won.
People take that to mean that I’m pro-slavery. I’m not. If the south won, slavery would have died out naturally by the early 1900s (assuming confederate america lasted that long)
But if the south had won, and been able to leave the union? I feel like they’d have made the worst possible choices for their country on a repeated basis. I feel like their country would have crumbled and disolved into multiple smaller countries. The united states would have continued expanding out west. Texas is probably the only former state that wouldn’t have crumbled.
The rest of the confederate states? They’d be struggling to survive, last in the world in education, terrible healthcare, basically a bunch of 3rd world countries. But the rest of the USA? SO MUCH HEALTHIER FOR IT!!! All these cancers trying to tear down OUR country today, wouldn’t be part of our country. They can go fuck up the country of Alabama. Go nuts.
The pure amount of butterfly effect policies that would be different is mind blowing.
To me, the south winning isn’t about slavery. It’s about taking this large lump sum of the worst people in the country, and cutting them free like you cut away a tumor to get rid of cancer.
How exactly would slavery have died out “naturally” in a union made up entirely of slave states who’d just fought and won a war to defend it? I get your point about letting the south stand in its own so it could fall, but you are too casually sweeping aside the issue of slavery. “Yeah yeah - that would pass naturally - now let me tell you my MAIN point….”
If the south won, slavery would have died out naturally by the early 1900s (assuming confederate america lasted that long)
Do you have access to some alternate timeline or something? Where can I get this secret information that you have?
To be fair though, Texas seceded once already and within a year or two was begging to be taken back. They probably would have crumbled too.
What if this is karma for invading and taking half of Mexico? There weren’t slavers or shittier-that-usual people in the region before that.
In this timeline, nazis got the atom bomb and rule the world because no “United” States
You say this but it’s hardly just the south that voted for trump. As you mentioned, the butterfly effect could have changed things dramatically. Things still could have turned out worse for everyone.
Though things are pretty crap now so I can definitely relate to your thought process.
On the one hand… First World War would’ve ended very differently.
On the other… Maybe eugenics would already be discredited by the 20s with how it went in Dixie.
This is complete hogwash speculation. You have no idea what would have happened to the North if the split had been permanent.
You’ve convinced me. I hadn’t thought if it quite that way.
(The previous comment was unedited at the time this was written, just in case)
If we can’t get enough people protesting and taking action, yes. The window is closing.
The fuck is protesting going to do at this point, lets be real here. Why do you think a protest has any sway of the bulldozer that is happening in the US Legal system?
Protesting is just not gonna accomplish much, a little bit more than that is needed I think.
General strikes are the only answer.
Yes but we should still make them pay for every inch they take.
It might take a long time to fix, but someday we will recover.
I think the US is over. There will be something else for sure, but i don’t know if the US is salvageable
If these things Trump is removing with presidential orders was so important, why the fuck didn’t Congress make them laws while Democrats had a majority in the past twenty fucking years?
This shit is infuriating to me that we only blame one side for these issues.
I think you need some perspective. The situation is bad and seems like foreshadowing of worse things to come. However, we’re a pretty far distance from states pulling away or civil war breaking out.
samus12345@lemm.ee 1 year ago
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