Submitted 5 months ago by n7gifmdn@lemmy.ca to technology@lemmy.world
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If not for the banks investing hevily into it, i’d not be all that worried.
Every company in that list could shrink by half and we’d all be at worst back to covid times. Sure unemployment would suck, but do we REALLY need microsoft and NVidia to be as huge as they are?
There is definitely a bubble. But also what Nvidia is doing is smart. They have boatloads of cash. They are investing that cash in the companies that are using their products to create money making services. If one of them can create a killer app or viable service this will create demand for their products and they will have an ownership stake in it. Is this guaranteed or even likely? Probably not. We have reached the point where we were in 1996 where the chairman of the fed came out and said we are in a period of “irrational exuberance.” That bubble took four more years to pop. This one may end quicker, but it is impossible to tell when it will end or what will come out of it from where we sit today.
Why should it pop sooner? US money can’t go anywhere else with the same profit margins. It‘ll run out if something more profitable comes around. Maybe a war or so.
All ai companies should direct all resources to medical research. I mean we would have to do without ai slop summaries for search engines and ai slop images. Well on second thought I guess slop is worth the human cost so let’s keep it as it is. I bet I get my wish.
The housing bubble encompassed a metric ton of banks and companies that bought and sold shares of subprime mortgages in the billions of dollars and when everyone stopped paying and started defaulting, that caused a entire economic collapse.
Now unless someone can point me to an analysis where we have some tangible proof that banks and tons of companies are invested, not just using, AI, it seems to me the fall out would be limited to tech companies, which yeah would involve some job losses but nothing on the scale of the housing or dotcom bubble.
Now if you’re referring to rich jackasses who are all in and banking on AI taking our jerbs? Sure that bubble will hurt them but they’re not driving forces in the economy, just politics, which I guess could cause a economic crash if they get your idiot politicians more scared of them than the people with France on their minds.
True, but consider that a huge amount of retail investors’ portfolios are tied to the S&P 500/NASDAQ. Think retirement savings, IRAs, 401(k)s, pensions, etc. Then consider that the entire market is effectively propped up by AI right now (see: The entire stock market is being carried by these four AI stocks). If the market gets a 60% correction, it’s going to be the middle class losing their shirts all over again.
The funny thing about people who say it’s not a bubble because AI has value is that the asset category having value doesn’t prevent valuation bubbles from forming.
Houses have value: you can live in them. Yet there was a housing bubble.
The internet has value: you can watch cat videos on it. Yet there was a dot com bubble.
Tulip bulbs have value: you can grow pretty flowers with them. Yet there was a tulip bulb bubble.
In my experience, whenever you start reading news stories asking if something is a bubble and quoting investment bankers say, “no, it’s not a bubble,” well, usually it’s a bubble.
Houses have value: you can live in them. Yet there was a housing bubble.
Was?
There is again, but there was, too.
The entire US economy has been running off of an asset megabubble that demands global dollar recycling via Wall St. and property for decades now. This is much worse than 2008 as there is no cushioning. We will see what 20+ of doubling down looks like in the end.
I don’t think it’s a bubble, first there is absolutely zero comparison to the housing bubble, which was a financial problem, and this alleged bubble is mostly driven by companies that have lots of money, so it is not credit based.
The better comparison would be the dot com bubble, which was dominated by companies that didn’t even have a product and didn’t make any money. The frenzy is similar, but the fundamentals are different.
AI investments may cool down because obviously there is a frantic race in an attempt to get ahead.
But the reason I don’t think the AI bubble will burst is because it is driven by companies that actually make money.
They may lose money investing too heavily in this, but they most companies investing in this can afford it.
If it is a bubble, it is a very very long one, Nvidia value has been exploding since 2016 based on their AI products.
If this is a bubble, I think it will go down in history as the longest living bubble ever.
Is the market frantic? Yes absolutely.
Is the value of some AI companies extremely high? Yes absolutely.
Is it a bubble that will burst? No if it’s a bubble, this one will be more like deflating to a less frantic level, because ALL the main players have the money to weather losses.
In bicycle repair terms it is called a slow leak.
I don’t think the AI bubble will burst is because it is driven by companies that actually make money.
Last I looked, the big AI companies are all hemorrhaging money.
It’s perfectly normal for a growth business to invest more than they make, I didn’t say they were profitable yet, but they are making money.
I think the biggest difference between this bubble and the ones that pop are whether the valuations were built by debt. In this case - no. So when their products turn out to be less useful than they claim, it will devaluate. But the debt issued to build the bubble wont go through a sudden correction that is amplified and causes an even bigger collapse like in 2008 or the dotcom bubble.
If it doesn’t pop, it’s not really a bubble, it just looks like it.
And the main AI companies have actual products that make money for them rolled out already. So it is not like the dot com bubble
Citation needed.
the only company making a profit is nvidia. everyone else is losing.
Its not a bubble but most people here dont think for themselves. They dont even seem to understand the connection between what news is put out, which analysts they choose to give attention, and for what purpose.
Imagine living your life and just believing whatever someone says in the news just because he has the title of analyst. And never thinking about who profits from that specific guy being on the news at that specific time.
Its not a bubble but most people here dont think for themselves.
But the ones who believe the AI hype think for themselves. Right.
If people think it’s a bubble, then it’s a bubble! (Self-fulfilling prophecy.) Google Trends is a decent gauge of public sentiment.
Especially your first paragraph is probably spot on. Short attention span.
Well argues. Also even if it is a bubble it’s arguable that most technology innovations are preceded by bubbles which are important for directing investment into emerging technologies. The railroad mania in the 19the century or the fibre optic rollout in the late 90s benefited humanity long after the bubble burst
Sell your stocks, I will buy. :)
Timing is a fools game for sure. Bubble could pop next month, next year, or even later.
If you’re old, make sure you have a good percent in bonds. If you’re young, make sure you have 6-12 months saved in case of layoffs and keep saving - market will look completely different in 20-30 years anyways so it’s not worth worrying about.
Hold up everyone. It’s not a bubble.
“So it is true that valuations are high but, in our view, generally not at levels that are as high as are typically seen at the height of a financial bubble,” said Goldman Sachs strategist Peter Oppenheimer.
He’s from GOLDMAN SACHS LOLOLOLO I THINK THEY WOULD RECOGNIZE A BUBBLE LOL ah fuck me our economy is gonna splode
Goldman Sachs also though NINA mortgages were a good idea, and they also thought it was a good idea to bundle bad mortgages in with good mortgages, and find a rater to mark them AAA investments.
And then we saw how that worked out.
yeah, how could this go wrong?
at least after the crash those houses could be lived in. these datacenters are made for one purpose, AI, and really would have to be completely gutted and refurbed for general purposes… fun.
I wonder what the people over at Bear Stearns think oh wait they gone.
this made me chortle into my cereal ty
I mean, what’s he gonna say?
right? I just figured the “it’s not a bubble, guuuuys” crowd could find someone a tiny bit more credible lol
Give me exit liquidity so I can buy the dip?
It seems like the wealthy propping up their own bubble.
Well, they now control all the money, so they can decide all the value.
Unpopular opinion but this will not as bad as housing bubble and we’re way past bubbles actually popping in contemporary economy. Even China corrected for its massive ghost city housing bubble just recently and that was actually worse than ai tech overvaluation.
I’ve been saying the same thing.
The 2008 housing bubble was predicated on cheap lending. It was all debt. It was massive amounts of toxic debt sold around Wall Street, like using Trump Coin or counterfeit cash used to buy a house.
The vast majority of what’s happening here is not debt. Sure, some, but very little. Even the OpenAI AMD stock swap thing is swapping a gamble on stocks worth real money, not debt.
IMO the first sub-bubble to pop will be all the time and effort wasted on “Startups” that are nothing more than a couple people acting as a wrapper for an AI agent. That’s not really going to impact the economy too much on its face, but suddenly a lot of people are going to go from being “entrepreneurs” to being truly unemployed.
The vast majority of what’s happening here is not debt.
Most of what is going on in the AI sector is most certainly debt leveraged. Like, I’m looking at the books for several companies deep into AI.
I mean, how much profit is OpenAI turning right now?
Comparing to the dotcom bubble is what finally made it make sense in my brain. Though I know the toll it took on that sector’s workers and I don’t envy those in fields that are going to be affected the same way.
Idk if ghost city thing was a bubble tho.
China used planned infrastructure and bunch of confused journalists in US were like “what kind of government plans for housing of their citizens”
I mean even if it was planned the amount of excess given falling birthrates, doesn’t check out either.
It was a textbook bubble. They made and gambled on theoretical apartments where nobody involved had any intention of living there or any responsibility or connection to the underlying structure, to the point where building cardboard skyskrapers became a business… the is no point in denying it. Capital housing investment is a plague on humanity.
Ah yes “the stoopit west har har” propaganda lol
Can you explain how we’re beyond bubbles like I’m 5? Is it that there are gentler market corrections now?
Yes, contemporary economy and free markets are so imaginary now that cascading effects and bubble pops like 2008 are very unlikely. American stock market in particular is so far off reality (even before AI boom) that it’s basically a video game with no actual relevancy to true gross product.
Anyone more knowledgeable care to help me understand where Anthropic is on this graphic/clusterjam?
This only got downvotes in another thread. There is far worse that can happen than an AI bubble.
People get distracted over the fate that the pure speculative frenzy could be an AI bubble, and the harm to the hapless speculators and banksters could have a minor impact on the rest of the economy.
Reality is far worse than an AI bubble. It is a US mission for a fossil fueled powered Skynet for Israel that is too big to fail. Bubble in AI investments becomes unlikely, but total destruction of rest of US economy/prosperity becomes assured when the “plebs able to eat in America bubble” bursts is a sacrifice that a fossil fueled powered Skynet for Israel is willing to make.
If Americans are still able to afford to eat, then China or Iran wins.
you say that like skynet is a bad thing?
What
please be more specific in what you don’t understand. I guess that…
fossil fueled powered Skynet for Israel
US government needs AGI for US military supremacy. That is Skynet (in Terminator movies, this is the military program to install AI in all the computers, and then AI chooses genocide nuclear launch). It is for Israel’s benefit, because that is who owns US government. That it be fossil fuel powered, serves another key US oligarchy.
Regardless of whether datacenters will make money solving business and individual problems or boosting productivity, the US will keep investing in order to get Skynet. You can be correct that “frontier datacenter LLM models” will not make money, but still lose on financial bets validating that idea. Instead of an AI bubble bursting, even more money chasing Skynet will come with Austerity for rest of population. The “valuation bubble” only pops when investor money flowing in dries up. It may only dry up after the collapse of the US.
NVIDIA really out here selling shovels in the gold Rush
Nvidia are very smart in that regard, ethics aside. Very early on they decided that selling cards to gamers will not give them the infinite growth everyone so desperately desire, so they started looking for what does, and they were consistent at it ever since. Every tech bubble of the recent history is powered by Nvidia cards. How much they contributed to the hype (and damage) is not entirely clear, but that’s not zero for sure
They lucked into it. They made their cards for gamers, and various groups, AI researchers, bitcoin miners and others, discovered that they those gamer GPUs were really good for other tasks too. I think it took a while before Nvidia started making specialised cards for those purposes.
I can’t really blame them for serving that market that they just lucked into. I can and will blame them for their terrible Linux support.
They made gpus long before the gold rush and will not stop after. The usefulness of tensor cores will not dwindle with any market correction. Even before ai boom they were valued astronomically out of reality. Not a single stock is tied to actual selling or owning of anything anymore
Just like shovels existed before the gold rush and will exist after humanity’s death. But we have a saying for a reason
But what will be left after it bursts? At least in cause of the housing bubble - the houses existed physically - what will be after the AI crash? Lots of spare gear sold for cheap?
There are many fine uses for tensor cores, we will not stop processing data.
There sure are but will there ever be a real chance to attract sober investors to make it work as a real business and not growth hacking extravaganza any time soon?
A bunch of brain dead junior Devs who cannot think for themselves
next year’s salary research is going to be a lot of fun!
But what will be left after it bursts?
Affordable GPUs? Less pushy AI commercials?
The wealthy will just move on to the next thing to inflate. Capitalists don’t work. They don’t care about anything other than ROI.
I don’t think they care about ROI for real. If they cared none of that would’ve happened because that’s just not how a real businesses are operating. You can burn the investments into R&D to an extent but if the product’s money flow doesn’t show a positive dynamics long enough - you get ready for some soul searching shit. My guess is that a lot of things contributing to AI bubble have something to do with money laundering.
These valuations cannot be tied to ROI, even using Olympic level mental gymnastics. The market would collapse in a millisecond. They are tied to a fictional dimension 78 years in the future where everyone decided to work overtime without collapsing and being four times as focused while the planet magically starts healing itself and no major disaster happens and all wars escalated without destroying any infrastructure or upsetting any populations and the authoritarian revenge hypercapitalist disasterpiece currently boiling over in the global standard host country suddenly is unanimously accepted as a new way of life without a single adverse reactions or any systematic issues and a spontaneous miraculous salvation from the diseases and famine it has maliciously developed due to the Christian god both existing and subscribing to the polar opposite moral and ethical alignment that the elite privileged promille has hallucinated to fit a reality that also somehow pivoted from a complete mass psychosis into firm truth by way of some unforseen quirk in the laws of physics that every great mind and scientists missed that magically flip childish commercial folly into concrete reality without requiring effort and being the first consciousless entity to achieve autonomy and an ability to replicate exponentially without consuming resources and a renneissance of unity appears around a unilateral decision to kill brown skinned people that agree to live and reproduce in the most efficient manner for the single purpose of feeding that slaughtering machine and producing goods and resources for the machine and for the now sanctioned debauchery that the new religion has prescribed all of our species to perform
Which as you might imagine is more than a little stretch
yes, We can’t prevent the bubble burst. We can hope it happens sooner rather than later but the bubble is baked in. So what companies and individuals can to is basically buy up their deitrius at bargain prices. And then use them to make better, more solid companies that do no require $3T investment while showing no fucking profit.
it’s kinda funny how all these massive business are all giant money drains year after year after year. back in the day business people used to pride themselves being in the black.
The s&p 500 tanks a ton and banks call on loans from these AI hyped companies using the price of the stocks as collateral (previously expected to rise). Credit crunch and now companies tighten the belts even further so higher unemployment again. Federal funds rate gets slashed and those that can manage steady good work during the recovery years will be fine. Everyone else will be struggle busing as usual
Can you elaborate on managing “steady good work”?
The gpus will still be used for AI, just not as profitable
Hard to do that when there’s no profit NOW.
What was left after the cryptocurrency crash? A whole lot of GPUs that got repurposed for AI. They’ll just get repurposed for whatever extremely computationally intensive thing some computer engineer comes up with. Until that bubble bursts, rinse and repeat. What’s happening is project managers are selling the next big thing to make a lot of capital really quickly to a board of directors.
They’ll just get repurposed for whatever extremely computationally intensive thing some computer engineer comes up with.
these are for AI, purpose built bespoke solutions to LLM problems. they’ll age like fine piss.
Where does the capital come from though? Someone has to pay for the shovels and if there isn’t a profit now, how will they pay for the next bubble?
Used GPUs
Annoyingly the current Gen that’s used for ai is basically useless for gaming
From the entry for “zaibatsu” on Wikipedia:
Under the Allied occupation after the surrender of Japan, a partially successful attempt was made to dissolve the zaibatsu. Many of the economic advisors accompanying the SCAP administration had experience with the New Deal and were highly suspicious of monopolies and restrictive business practices, which they felt to be both inefficient, and to be a form of corporatocracy (and thus inherently anti-democratic).
The only difference? The zaibatsu actually diversified their operations.
If Lemmy is supposed to be the place where the most tech savvy people in the interest congregate, and everyone in the comments is unsatisfied with AI then we really do have a problem. These companies have all reached a point where they no longer listen to their most informed customer base but instead take 100% of direction from investors who don’t even know what they want except a line going up.
Unpopular opinion, but every nascent industry looks like a bubble. What makes it a bubble is if and when it pops. It anything, LLM AI might deflate and stabilize, but it’s also here to stay. In that case, what pops NVIDIA is when they can’t expand any more and they go against geopolitical interests that begin stealing and making viable alternatives for the price.
People need housing, no one needs this AI crap. Even in boring engineering jobs using tools that solved problems decades ago, we are getting AI shoveled in left and right in places no one needs or wants it. And calling old features “AI” is also another problem.
And now these stupid “barking bears attacking fat sleeping people” videos are everywhere, and people seem to think they’re real.
We should focus on natural intelligence first, that is to say each other, and education…
Oh and the headline should read “Every day”, “everyday” is an adjective, like an everyday occurence.
Except it’s 17x larger & will take the entire US GDP with it.
I’ll just wait for the movies to come out ten years later telling us exactly how they all lost our money again.
This is fine 🐶☕️🔥
doesn’t look a goddamn thing like the housing bubble
I dont think we are in a bubble and I think all the media posts about it are just trying to make people sell their shares.
Sure there is no obvious profit yet but there will be. Once people start using AI in their phones and ask it questions, everything from bakning to coding becomes way easier since its an interactive conversation, not a search result.
People will pay for that convenience since its a huge downside to not have access to it.
This doesn’t really tell me anything, I’d have to compare it with other charts. E.g. what does the chart for agriculture look like? Airplane manufacturing? Internet in early 2000s?
Burn it all to the ground
More like the 2000s bubble.
Everyday Ai
IS there a mundane, everyday Ai ?
But where is Palantir on this? Because they’re connected to actually all of them.
It needs to burst into non-existence.
ezterry@lemmy.zip 5 months ago
I see “gold rush” the company selling shovels is making out like a bandit, everyone else is make a profit on the previous gen but requires a 10x cost increase for the next gen. And thus 10x more shovels… As soon as 10x more shovels stops giving 10x+ improvements this is the wrong investment.
Hints are we already reached this point.
Some AI companies will pivot and improve in other ways with more linear costs/results… The ones hoping the line continues to the moon… I think they overshot… I just don’t know when it will fall back…