cross-posted from: lemmy.org/post/1872634
So, starting now, Google started mandating full JS for YT, effectively breaking all third-party clients and locking the site to their official client.
This reeks of DRM.
Submitted 2 weeks ago by DFX4509B_2@lemmy.org to technology@lemmy.world
https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp/issues/14404
cross-posted from: lemmy.org/post/1872634
So, starting now, Google started mandating full JS for YT, effectively breaking all third-party clients and locking the site to their official client.
This reeks of DRM.
Someone give it to me straight, what is the endgame of this cat and mouse game? I know yt-dlp and invidious have been quite crafty at adapting to these changes, but the scales seem to be tipping.
It feels like Google will dominate the game into submission the same way it did with AOSP and Chrome. I know I’m being dramatic but it’s really starting to feel like we’re being cornered into a hopeless situation
Well the problem for google is that Youtube MUST be accessible to almost any internet user in the world - that’s a key reason why it’s so ubiquitous.
The reason this cat and mouse game has lasted as long as it has in the first place is because any method that is currently being quashed has a solution lying in another user agent that youtube can’t kill.
If one day YT sets a “minimum requirements” page on their website to access their content, they’ve immediately ceded market share to the next upstart. Imagine if they broke viewing for all of the countless cheap (and e-waste) phones, tablets, low end IOT devices, “smart TVs”, and so on because they place a requirement that the device cannot meet. Those users will not throw away their hardware - they’ll migrate to the first available alternative way to watch content.
As long as YT caters to the lowest common denominator (Their business model essentially binds them to do so), there will always be a software/hardware environment that these tools can spoof. The moment that stops being the case, people look for other options.
A similar analogy would be how Microsoft handled the windows 11 requirements - the strict requirements locking out years upon years of hardware has resulted in a substantial amount of users finding workarounds for their machines (like windows 10 IOT LTSC), or to even jump to linux entirely. They abandoned the entry level users, so entry level users are abandoning them.
If one day YT sets a "minimum requirements" page on their website to access their content, they've immediately ceded market share to the next upstart. Imagine if they broke viewing for all of the countless cheap (and e-waste) phones, tablets, low end IOT devices, "smart TVs", and so on because they place a requirement that the device cannot meet. Those users will not throw away their hardware - they'll migrate to the first available alternative way to watch content.
This all incorrectly assumes that there exists any viable competition to switch to. YouTube ran at a net loss for over a decade to get the reach they currently have, only because Google was one of the very few companies who could feasibly afford to do so. And most of the content people access YouTube for is only found on YouTube, so those hypothetical users aren't going to switch to a new platform, they're going to either just flat-out stop watching or will replace their devices.
Imagine if they broke viewing for all of the countless cheap (and e-waste) phones, tablets, low end IOT devices, “smart TVs”, and so on because they place a requirement that the device cannot meet. Those users will not throw away their hardware - they’ll migrate to the first available alternative way to watch content.
Not-so-fun fact, this is exactly what ATSC 3 is trying to do for OTA broadcast TV.
A similar analogy would be how Microsoft handled the windows 11 requirements - the strict requirements locking out years upon years of hardware has resulted in a substantial amount of users finding workarounds for their machines (like windows 10 IOT LTSC), or to even jump to linux entirely.
Staying in windows 10 sure, but I’ve yet to see much evidence people have been switching much to Linux.
Android is different because there are no alternatives to cellphones except Apple. On the web, there are other ways to share video. So Google can maybe lock YouTube down, but it can’t lock you down.
Many of us use 3rd party browsers a stop-gap measure. We’d like to leave the platform entirely, but we are still interested in some of the content there, so we’re OK with the cat-and-mouse game for now, knowing that if Google goes hardcore blocking mode that we will walk away and be better human beings for it.
You got Linux phones but those are rough to be nice about it.
Technically you don’t need a smartphone. A tethered mobile device would do. For just cellular calls, there are dumbphones. That Youtube does or doesn’t work doesn’t concern me. They always ask to login on VPN which is always on for me. Thanks, just no.
i heard there is something called murena
murena.com/products/smartphones/
no idea how these are, but i have previous generation fairphone and it has been decent, even if that one has android. I’ll propably get one at some point since i dont want to use android. the price of fairphones is a bit high, but that is how it is when you dont use slavery to produce them.
what is the endgame of this cat and mouse game?
Same as usual: the mouse loses unless it assembles and unionizes with other mouses and they bring in a guillotine.
They turn it into an app-only platform just like with many PRC-based apps. Literally, some of those platforms doesn’t even have a web or desktop mode.
I tried using Baidu Maps web to look at my old neighborhood (I was born in mainland China) for nostalgia, and the site repeatedly automatically attempts to download the .apk like every tap I make on the site. Wtf lol. The site probably detected the useragent and keeps nagging me about their app.
I tried browsing a random popular online store to see what it’s like for curiosity (天猫), but it asked for a sign in. Like wut? Even Amazon, Ebay, Bestbuy doesn’t do that. PRC is actually just late stage cyberpunk capitalism.
This is gonna be the future for every big-corp stuff. App only, real ID and phone number verification required. Probably even scan your face.
We need a Meshtastic-based “internet” to actually decouple from big corps have control our infrastructure to have real freedom.
Good luck blocking alt OSes on PC if Windows goes the route you’re describing though, unless MS pulls some strings to force Pluton platform-wide on PC and stamp out alt OSes altogether.
Also, good luck blocking decentralized and self-hostable platforms, at least easily.
Someone give it to me straight, what is the endgame of this cat and mouse game?
A mandatory account with paid subscription.
The end game is to take full control. If Google implements Widevine on YT, and especially Widevine L1, that’ll be Google’s Hiroshima bomb for both third-party front-ends and downloaders, and even non-Android, ChromeOS, Apple, or Windows platforms as far as OS goes and non-Chrome or Edge browsers.
That would be their poison pill. Youtube’s advantage is in it’s ubiquity. Lose that, you lose countless users.
Someone give it to me straight, what is the endgame of this cat and mouse game?
The internet gets turned into packetized cable tv with bonus panopticon features.
Your new monitor likely has DRM features built in that are already being utilized by Netflix and others. Youtube is next on the line
DRM is expensive. Very expensive in fact because it is basically non-trivial encryption.
A website with as much traffic as YouTube cannot afford to DRM every single video stream. There just isn’t enough processing power and electricity available.
Netflix et al. have a tiny fraction of YouTube’s traffic with more income per user due to subscriptions.
Plus YouTube’s storage demands are many orders of magnitude larger. A maximum upper bound for Netflix is 1 PB I’d imagine. Archiveteam alone has selectively downloaded more than 3 PB. YouTube has, I’d imagine, a double digit exabyte amount of data stored + backups.
Yeah, I think Netflix has like a few thousand movies and a couple thousand TV shows, and some of us here have similarly sized Jellyfin libraries. On the other hand, YouTube has billions of videos. It seems DRM would be a significantly more difficult and costly problem for YouTube.
Whatever the latest version of HDCP is, sure.
Probably like every other victim of enshittification:
You pay or you don’t consume.
Maybe total DRM enforcement, and clients without widevine only get garbage quality. That’d end yt-dlp for youtube
Holy shit I did not realize how complex of a project yt-dlp has to be to do something as simple as download a video… Kudos to the devs
This post title is just completely incorrect and it looks like 700+ people didn’t even read the comments or the actual issue for one minute.
Good job guys!
I mean sure, OP’s title is somewhat clickbaity but it’s kind of true though. YouTube have broken compatibility with all existing unofficial clients. It’s good that yt-dlp are managing to work around it. I expect many other clients will follow suit but some of them may be unable to install additional dependencies and remain broken.
Ultimately, what is the last straw that will break the camel’s back? Every client/consumer will have their breaking point.
I mean sure, OP’s title is somewhat clickbaity but it’s kind of true though.
Somewhat? Did you read the issue? Here’s a recap: yt-dlp will introduce a proper JS runtime in the future to better cope with YT’s JS. That’s it that’s the issue.
YouTube have broken compatibility with all existing unofficial clients.
Google doing everything they can to anger everyone.
I cancelled YT Premium after paying pretty much since Google Music was a thing. The price keeps going up, and Lite is meh even for the discounted price (e.g. no background play I think?).
They just keep building the wall higher and higher, while they survive only because creators keep filling it with content. Nobody is watching “YouTube Originals” or their first party content. YouTube exists solely because of third party creators.
You can either revance your yt music app, or use Firefox with an extension that keeps videos playing while your phone is locked.
If you’re using your phone, definitely check out YouTube revanced. Or if on a tv check out Smart tube next. No ads, sponsor block baked in. It’s all the perks of premium (plus more) without the cons of supporting an evil company
It’s annoying but I guess they’re just evolving their anti spam mechanisms, which shouldn’t surprise anyone.
JS is one of the most popular scripting languages anyway so having it as a requirement shouldn’t hinder anyone.
And not to throw shade at the people who designed yt-dlp, but designing a tool to “scrap” the content of an evolving platform in a different language (with different tooling etc) than the one which it’s expecting to be consumed by might have been a mistake
anti spam? on the video player? you cannot think is seriously.
JS is one of the most popular scripting languages anyway so having it as a requirement shouldn’t hinder anyone.
except any of the clients that care about not running whatever untrusted google code in an unrestricted environment.
Revanced is working just fine.
For now.
Revanced actually is the official YouTube client, just modified on the users device before installation.
It has never worked for me. Always within minutes of an update or install, videos stop buffering and the whole thing is bricked.
I regularly forget to update it for 8 months and it has never broken for me
Well I watched a couple videos, went to pick up some meds, and watched a few shorts in the drive thru.
But I am on Android and followed the instructions closely just a few days ago.
huh will seems like i should go on a yt-dlp binge on the wcw vault just in case for archival and historical purposes of course
Not that I’m trying to criticize you for it, but we all should have been on that a long time ago
Library of Congress should be mirroring the entire site.
oh i mean i have been doing it just sporadically whenever i get a moment :)
Lies. Both YT ReVanced and SmartTubeNext have been working perfectly all day today.
NewPipe as well, without any update either.
Yep FreeTube is the only one I found not working, which is what I use on the desktop.
Not lies, because Youtube on android uses something called DroidGuard, while on browser and other platforms, uses something called BotGuard. Their implementation differ, but NewPipe uses DroidGuard and programs like FreeTube and Invidious use BotGuard. So that’s probably the reason why NewPipe still works fine.
Don’t quote me on that tho. But that’s what I know
YT Revanced is not a 3rd party client. It (and all vanced patches) work by taking the original app and patching the code directly, often simply to bypass sections of it entirely.
Let’s take backg ground playback for example, the app has that functionality but it checks if the user has a premium subscription or not before allowing it. Revanced simply removes that check by jumping over the code and always returning true.
Yeah it works more like how cracks used to work back in the day.
They’re going to keep enshitifying it until they kill it completely. Them blackholes, I mean shareholders, will never have enough money.
They won’t kill it, just like it hasn’t died so far. The content, viewer demographics, and algorithm continue to shift. There’s too much money with all the ads and subscription fees. Most people view some content on it by default.
Its gonna be the new cable TV in a way. Kinda sucks, some good stuff on it, but mostly slop filled with ads. And everyone will still use it. Even if they block all 3rd party access, people like me are still going to use it to some limited degree. There will be a video about how to fix a random plumbing fitting that is leaking in my house, or how to fix some random thing on my 15 year old car.
The market that accesses YouTube from a PC or Mac is shrinking rapidly.
They would prefer you use one of the apps and at some point that will be the majority, if it isn’t already
That is by design.
With an actual computer, you have a lot more options in terms of how you can handle the content. They don’t own your PC (yet) but they do own the mobile market and the operating system entirely.
You don’t have any form of root/admin access on a mobile device of any type nor any other device (tv box, game console, tablet, etc). For the handful that have jailbroken or rooted their phones, many apps don’t work (by design of course). You can do it, but you’ll break a ton of stuff in the process. That’s enough to keep causals from doing it and leaves the tiny group of hardcore dorks that are willing to live with the complexities that are required.
I’m going to put on my tinfoil hat and say this is what keeps any real attempt at a Linux phone in the gutter. If people had a choice for their mobile operating system and the freedom to do what they want with it, the big tech companies would shit a brick. They’ve already removed the ability to block ads on mobile devices for the vast majority, they’re finally getting what they wanted (save the handful of Firefox users left).
Linux phones won’t be a thing until there is hardware for them. With apple/google phones, the manufacturers will not release the necessary software so that is needed for a 3rd party OS. Google and Apple will make sure that anyone who makes hardware for them are legally tied to keeping that software tightly closed. Even if someone did manage to reverse engineer it, it would be a herculean effort and would break as soon as a new release is out (or if one of the manufacturers “accidentally” released some exploit code for the reverse engineered drivers).
It’s an ugly world these greedy fucks have made for us.
Yeah last I’ve seen even smartphones and tablets are decreasing quickly relative to smart TVs.
Overheard at the last shareholders conference. Until everyone empties all their ecoin & change jars and the only the left to eat are those Budding’s Mysterious sandwich meats with some shit ass processed excuse for a loaf of bread. I understand that may be high livin’ according to some standards. It ain’t but that is another topic altogether.
The Dude abides.
You should remember to send all YT videos that you watch to archive.org
There are browser extensions to do this conveniently
Which extension are you referring to? Is it the standard Wayback Machine extension or a youtube specific one?
!remember 8 hour
Didnt want to name specifics because they might not exist for certain browsers, but you can search “archive” and there will be many
Newpipe is working for me. For now…
This reeks of same shit different day or at least different month. Last time if I recall you had to include a valid cookie with yt-dlp.
I’ve never had to “include a valid cookie”, though there’s been various problems and they can vary from video to video.
Any IP on the local ISP requires a google login to work. Very few work without the cookie generated from it.
I use Seal. It works fine. It has trouble downloading from “official” pages though (e.g. Vevo or Universal or whatever). It’s like those pages, since they’re owned by corporate entities, have some extra protection on them or something. It’s been like this for years, across Android, Windows, Mac, etc – doesn’t matter what I try to use to download, it’ll fail on those pages/accounts.
Someone please find the Steins;Gate Wordline, I’m not really enjoying the worldline convergence, everything is turning to shit.
Do you mind to elaborate?
The alternative clients really should allow alternative sources.
Move away from relying on the evil that is google.
Grayjay allows many alternative sources, and PeerTube
New pipe and smart tube both working for me.
My self hosted downloader similarly didn’t skip a beat.
As someone who is listening to a video on NewPipe as I type this very comment, no they did not
Came here to say this after giving it 24 hours in case it was just lucky timing
However, now if I try to watch a YT vid in Firefox, I get the “Oops something went wrong” right when the Ad should have popped up
Grayjay still seems to work.
I’ve had it fail to load a lot of stuff today. Something’s definitely up.
Yeah have been using inv.nadeko.net as FreeTube broke for me. Unfortunately there seems to be some kind of bandwidth throttling as I’m getting 720p videos only (my internet is fine for 1080p and I was getting 1080p on FreeTube).
using smarttube. works fine 4 me
I am so glad I had the foresight to use yt-dlp to back up most of my favorite videos. Not all of them, but I just thought we’d get more time.
But yeah, I knew this would happen. The age verification thing was really controversial, so Google would have had to expect that people would try to find other ways to access YouTube.
I’m pretty much done with YouTube. It’s just not what it used to be. All my favorite YouTubers are either gone or changed. It’s mostly just slop, and I won’t miss it.
Newpipe still working for me now?
Tubular for Android of which I thought it uses yt_dlp, still works well.
The day smart tube next stops working is the day i stop using youtube. I will NEVER watch a shitty youtube ad and I’m sure as shit not paying google any money whatsoever.
IS THIS WHY SEAL ISN’T WORKING OH NOOO
Yt-dlp worked for me 3 hours ago
Invidious still works!
about +12 hours ago spotdl (which uses yt-dlp) was broken. But I keep go on watching videos on newpipe
PipePipe works fine when logged out.
GrayJay still seems to work
Well, I sure hope this doesn’t come to be. I don’t wanna use their official website, the 3rd party tools are great! But YouTube has become an essential part of my everyday life…
And yes, I have looked into alternatives. They lack what YouTube got, which is the creators I already like (pretty much all of them exclusive to YouTube). Best I could get is copycats. You might be able to find something similar, but not the same (unless you like tech, I guess. If all you consume is tech, you won’t lack options (especially if you don’t care for specific creators))
art@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Just ran am update for ytdlp and it’s working again.
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
if only you could read 😔
RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Well the title claims that Youtube just broke third party clients, so you sorta expect the clients to be broken. Shit title
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Installed where?
Can’t recall installing such a runtime manually.
Is it bundled with yt-dlp?
So many questions…If only one could be precise