My dumb ass: “Is it just 1.5m Germans, or other heights too?”
‘If 1.5m Germans have them there must be something in it’: how balcony solar is taking off
Submitted 2 months ago by youradhere@feddit.org to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
Zip2@feddit.uk 1 month ago
amon@lemmy.world 1 month ago
M in million should always be capitalised for this reason.
1.5M Germans vs 1.5m Germans
Siegfried@lemmy.world 1 month ago
1.5 10^6 Germans vs 1.5 10^-3 Germans
calcopiritus@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Until I read this comment I was 100% certain the post was about short Germans somehow preferring having their balconies occluded by taller-than-them solar panels.
A_A@lemmy.world 1 month ago
1.5m Germans are 150cm people !
sirico@feddit.uk 2 months ago
In b4 nimbys complain it’s an eyesore despite most people never looking up
freebee@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Usually not uglier than the balcony itself.
ayyy@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Home solar indicates a massive management failure of public utilities. If it is more cost effective and more pleasant to generate your own electricity without any economies of scale, something is very wrong.
fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Microgeneration makes way more sense to me. If you generate the power where it is used without pollution, we should. The unfortunate piece is we have to many landlords who’s interest are too divorced from their tenets to put up more microgeneration
ayyy@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
These microinverters aren’t made of fairy dust. Doing this stuff at utility scale uses a lot less nasty minerals and chemicals.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 month ago
If you generate the power where it is used without pollution, we should.
Generators take space, require maintenance, and have a certain optimal capacity that isn’t necessarily hit on a given roof.
For wind energy in particular, the bigger the turbine, the more yield per $ spent. If you go out to Corpus Christi you’ll see these enormous turbines - $10M to $50M / ea - that generate on the order of $24 to $75 per MWh, or $.024-.075/kWh. Home wind/solar don’t get anywhere close to that.
Prime placement of units, distribution across a wide area, and a degree of storage capacity means you’re going to get better and more consistent yield.
Barsukis@sopuli.xyz 1 month ago
Makes sense mathematically or you think makes sense?
azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Grids work on economies of scale. The bigger the better. Ask anyone who lives on an isolated island for their power bill. That’s why it was such a big deal when the Baltics switched from the Russian grid to the EU one.
Bigger grid = more intertia&redundancy = less likelihood of failure, more options, lower costs.
Electricity isn’t like chicken eggs. Transporting it is for all intents and purposes free. The network is expensive, but whether your house is pulling 1 A or 5 A is a non-difference to your utility. So to think local generation is “better” is a complete fallacy. Unless your house is fully disconnected from the network (not “net zero”, disconnected) then it’s not helping to generate power locally. Like someone else said, it’s actually way more expensive per kWh than grid-scale solar.
Now this would all be a “you” problem, except the big problem with microgeneration is that current tech is “dumb”. It’s either pushing power on the network, or sometimes tripping if the voltage goes above 250V or so. Which actually happens in rich neighborhoods on very sunny days where everyone is pushing power.
What this means for the operators is that on very sunny days, they cannot do anything but account for the extra residential solar power. Which might mean they have to very quickly spin up or down alternative power generators which were not meant for this. Or they might be dealing with complex issues with current flowing the other way than designed and large voltage fluctuations on specific parts of the network that don’t have the necessary infrastructure to “dump” that extra solar somewhere else.The end result is that, counter-intuitively, microgeneration is one of the many failures of the neoliberal electricity market. It’s more expensive and more disruptive for society than if those solar cells had been put to use in grid-scale solar production. They only end up where they are through political mismanagement and misaligned incentives (e.g. net metering which does not account for negative externalities).
Bytemeister@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Shoot, my electric is like $.0625/KWH
But there is also another 75-100 bucks tacked on as fees. Tempting to go solar and disconnect from the grid. Even without selling energy back to the grid, I would break even. (Savings over 20 years ~200 bucks)
Gonzako@lemmy.world 1 month ago
The rent seekers making everything worse again
Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 month ago
God, I love living in a nuclear plant evacuation zone
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
it’s not actually that bad, unless you live next to a gen 1, or maybe gen 2 plant. Unless you’re next to one of like, three existing operational RBMK plants.
By the time you needed to evacuate from that area due to a nuclear disaster, you would be well informed, and probably gone already. Even if you didn’t the radiation exposure is likely to be incredibly minimal. Probably under the regulated limits.
Cataphract@lemmy.ml 1 month ago
I live in an area where there is a monopoly of power supply by one of the worse polluters in American history, in a small area within a county there’s an existing co-op power company that was basically grandfathered in because it’s been in existence for so long while no other competitors are allowed in the area.
That co-op when I lived in the area was about half the cost of the monopoly company, a relative gets actually paid to be a member because they received their fathers account when he passed away and extra funds are distributed among all the members based on how long they’ve been with them (a little weird, but at least better than shareholders getting the profit).
You are absolutely right that the electric companies as a whole have failed, they’ve been allowed to amass too much influence and coverage while squashing any kind of competition. Why electrical needs aren’t considered a national resource is mind baffling to me. Our country and citizens way of life would literally grind to a halt without it.
Squizzy@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Infrastructure should be public, with regulated access for wholesale and retail. It works. The grid operator needs to make money for large scale projects like interconnectors, modernising, maintenance and build.
seven_phone@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I am not sure 1.5m Germans all deciding on a single course of action is something to be happy about.
weststadtgesicht@discuss.tchncs.de 2 months ago
We have passed the torch of a fascist dystopia to another country.
RandomVideos@programming.dev 1 month ago
During WW2, there were multiple
FelixCress@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Oh, Nazi reference, how original.
alleycat@lemmy.world 2 months ago
You have Trump now. It’d be our turn to make jokes, if we had any humour.
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 2 months ago
Nah, making fun of germans is always ok, especially now that at least 1 in 5 voters are voting for literal Nazis again in Germany.
sirico@feddit.uk 2 months ago
Nearly 100 years on time to move on I think
NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz 2 months ago
A mere drop in the bucket when 77m have decided on a much worse course of action in another country.
Obelix@feddit.org 2 months ago
Why? Can you explain a little bit?
einkorn@feddit.org 2 months ago
*hurrdurr* Germany! Hitler! *hurrdurr*
seven_phone@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I am not sure if you are a student of history but twice before the Germans decided to go to war and have as their foe the world.
Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 months ago
“Plug-in solar is part of the whole array of options,”
I don’t understand how this works, for our system the “plug in” is an inverter that cost about $3000.- (half if it doesn’t have to handle a battery), and it needs to be installed by an authorized electrician.
For a small system as the one shown, the price of panels are peanuts, the ones shown should cost less than $150. While to the cost of inverter and getting it connected are way way higher.The article says nothing about how the power from those panels is made usable.
schnokobaer@feddit.org 2 months ago
The “balcony” bit isn’t the defining characteristic, it shouldn’t be taken literally. Some people do have their “balcony solar power” on their roofs.
What defines it is limitation to 800 W and inverters that come with a normal Euro Type F (“Schuko”) plug and no legal requirement for professional installation. A layman can literally plug it in to an existing wall socket. Given that they are capped at 800 Watts, the inverters are also the simplest type and dirt cheap (although often they are literally just software-capped and identical to higher power ones, make of that what you will). Complete systems (2 panels, cabling, inverter) cost between 299€ and 800€ depending on quality. You genuinely only have to buy a fixture that suits your needs and a mate to help you install it.
Proper several-Kilowatt-systems are very expensive in Germany too.
Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Thanks really good info. 👍😀
A layman can literally plug it in to an existing wall socket
I had no idea that is possible??? Is that special for Germany? (sorry for keeping on with new questions). 😋 I’ve never heard of that option here in Denmark.
cost between 299€ and 800€
No wonder it’s a popular option, our system is of course bigger with 11.2 kWh and 7.5 kWh battery. but it was $17000 1½ year ago. Prices have dropped to $12500 for a similar system, but still such an 800W system is dirt cheap by comparison.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
Balcony solar is a set of diy technologies that require no utility permissions.
In Germany, NL, you can just plug it into socket and it works somehow.
In us you can use powerstations and also adapters that sync draw from battery as it charges from ac in house.
It pays for itself even with more expensive equipment, by not needed license, permission, that can lead to cheap efficient panels costing over 3$ per watt. Small systems that just offset use instead of selling back, have higher revenue offsets in high per kwh priced markets.
BombOmOm@lemmy.world 1 month ago
In Germany, NL, you can just plug it into socket and it works somehow.
This is incredibly dangerous as it will feed power into the grid even when the grid is down. You might say ‘that is great!’, yeah, well, the line technicians who cannot work on cables because you are energizing them think otherwise.
One of the reasons solar grid-feeding systems are expensive in the US is they have extra equipment to disconnect the system from the grid if it goes down. Your house can will still have local power, but you won’t be energizing powerlines technicians are trying to fix.
Hugin@lemmy.world 1 month ago
There are two main inverter approaches. One big inverter that takes the DC from a bunch of panels and converts it into AC and micro inverters where each panel gets it’s own small one placed directly under the panel.
The micro inverters cost around $150 each. So you need around 10 panels before the single inverter becomes a good choice.
Installers love the micro because the install is easier. However as a owner with say 30 panels you now have 30 points of possible failure instead of the 1.
Buffalox@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Oh boy, apparently there’s a lot I don’t know. It’s really cool there are those cheaper options now.
zergtoshi@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Have a look here: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony_solar_power
Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 months ago
OK thanks, so they are indeed complete systems including inverter, so it can be connected to the grid.
I suppose they’ve made some cheap low power inverters then, but the power still needs to have stable voltage an frequency and synchronization. So I wonder how cheap it’s possible to make?
I also suppose it still needs an authorized electrician to connect it? Unless Germany has some fancy system that is prepared for “plug in” connection of a local power source.
Aurora_TheFirstLight@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 months ago
I wonder if a whole building could use one or two inverters?
I feel that’ll make the cost reasonable
Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 months ago
For apartment buildings I don’t think that’s possible, since electricity is a per household connection with separate meter.
Valmond@lemmy.world 2 months ago
If you pay 3000€ for an inverter then that’s probably included installing and whatnot. You can get a cheap 50€ 4kW inverter on aliexpress, or an expensive 500€ 10kW one.
Buffalox@lemmy.world 1 month ago
No the price was not including installation, We have 11.2 kW panels and 7.5 kWh batteries. Installation was almost $5000.- !! That was probably mostly the 28 panels on the roof. But we had one installer handling everything, who was also responsible for the electrician.
Etterra@discuss.online 1 month ago
That’s 4’ 11" - I had no idea Germans were so short.
AA5B@lemmy.world 1 month ago
I wonder why only those people have balcony solar. Why aren’t other people interested?
AugustWest@lemmy.world 1 month ago
First the trans people come for my energy, then they come for my trains? When will the madness end? Won’t someone think of the children!
ivanafterall@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Nobody else found it odd that these solar installations are just flying away?
Valmond@lemmy.world 2 months ago
This is really nice! This is the future!
I’d love to know how much they produce, especially during the winter/monthly.
Obelix@feddit.org 1 month ago
That kind of depends on what you’re building. Standard is currently 800W (2 standard solar panels). Older models use 600W, other models are using 2000W and limit it to 800W. That doesn’t make much sense, but skirts our local regulations that limits them to 800W, but of course generates more energy.
It then also depends on where you live. Can you point it to the sun? Do you live in sunny Spain or in northern Norway? In Germany a 800W system can produce 800-1200kWh per year. Our average electricity price is at 0.35€, so you’ll save 280€-420€ a year. And those systems are dirt cheap, there are deals out there where you can get one for 200€. That is quite a good ROI for something that you can install in an hour.
Valmond@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Yeah I get all that, but what if I need heating in the winter and have very low consumption in the summer? That is why I’m searching for real world numbers. If you give me some for a specific place then I can at least have a ballpark number if what I might get where I live.
OTOH as you say, they start to be so cheap it’s almost impossible to go wrong…
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
not very much, especially during the winter, the best way to optimize panel production is by pointing it towards the sun most effectively, the farther north, or south, of the equator the less effective it is, the less directly it points towards the sun in general, the less power you make.
It might still produce a decent amount of power overall, through a reasonable period of time, but it’s probably WELL below what you could be making with an optimized install, especially one with solar tracking, granted some solar power is still better than no solar power, so you do get tradeoffs at the end of the day.
Valmond@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Thanks for the input, but I yet have to find a calculator that shows how much you generate per month and not only oer year!
MTK@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Read it as germans who are 1.5 meter tall, wondered why them being short is relevant.
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
i mean, it’ll work. You should probably just collectively work together to install a solar array on the roof of the apartment instead, assuming it doesn’t already have one.
Granted this is in the EU, so ideal solar tracking is kinda just, fucked. It matters more closer to the equator, because you can get significantly more power from pointing them correctly, and tracking, if you decide to use that.
AA5B@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Rooftop solar has a huge upfront cost and requires the building owner/operator do it. It’s out of the control of individuals and out of their price range.
Balcony solar is completely under your control, within most people’s budget, and you simply plug it in
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
yeah and uh, idk if you noticed, generally more than one person lives in an apartment building, it’s about as good as it’s going to get unless you’re installing solar from tax payer money, or utility company money.
desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 month ago
any form of collective project requires organization, which conveniently is not required for an individual project that can be as impulsive and unsafe as the individual wants.
Saleh@feddit.org 1 month ago
Balcony solar is not unsafe though. At least it is not more unsafe than say putting a plant pot on your balcony, or operating power appliances like fridges, stoves, washing machines…
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
that is true, but it’s pretty common for apartment blocks to have some sort of management and front of house staff, so it’s not impossible. Even easier to deal with if you’re in some sort of co op situation.
Saleh@feddit.org 1 month ago
Why are you cooking for yourself at home? It would be more efficient, if you organize a shared kitchen in the house and each evening a different party cooks for everyone in the house.
Krauerking@lemy.lol 1 month ago
Hell yeah. I do Thursdays and man people remember to come to me on Thursday.
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
in an apartment specifically? Why would you build your own house when you can build a large building and then live in segmented housing blocks within that building?
It’s literally just breaking the entire idea of apartment block housing for the purposes of providing less usable, less functional solar power. If you want to do your own install on top of an existing install on the apartment, go ahead, nobody is going to stop you, but you would see more returns if you managed to install solar directly on the roof of the building in the first place. Economy of scale is going to be advantageous for you in literally any case, that’s just the truth.
Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Wait that’s a thing?
Holy shit that a thing!? That’s awesome!!
btaf45@lemmy.world 1 month ago
By putting the solar panel at a 90 degree angle though it is much less efficient than e.g. a 45 degree angle.
Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
Less efficient than not having them?
cjk@discuss.tchncs.de 1 month ago
Wrong question. The right question is: is the solar panel able to be CO2 neutral (at least) or CO2 negative. We don’t get anything out of it if producing the solar panel costs more CO2 emissions than it saves by producing electricity.
Before you ask: I don’t know the answer. I was looking into this thread in hope to find it.
btaf45@lemmy.world 1 month ago
I hung a solar panel vertically on my fence one time. It was facing west rather than south, but I was only getting about 3-4 watts on my 100 watt panel under the best conditions.
colourlessidea@sopuli.xyz 1 month ago
Depends, is an imaginary angle comparable to a 45 degree angle?
DegenerationIP@lemmy.world 1 month ago
The most have a 45 degree angle
tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 1 month ago
I’m sure this is a good thing, but considering the vast majority of Germans haven’t figured out screens on windows I’m not sure the appeal to authority in the title has the desired effect.
feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 1 month ago
“100 million smokers can’t be wrong!”
Bosht@lemmy.world 1 month ago
That pic is great, haha. Woman looks so smug.
RandomVideos@programming.dev 1 month ago
There is something in it - they are making solar panels with chemicals that makes energy trans
bobble86@lemm.ee 2 months ago
Germans also have 7 times the power bill
Septimaeus@infosec.pub 2 months ago
Would be nice if grid tied inverters weren’t such a regulatory PITA. Micro-deployment solar, and more importantly distributed energy storage, makes so much sense and could solve a lot of grid-related problems.
madjo@feddit.nl 1 month ago
My North-East facing balcony doesn’t get enough sun light. But it’s an interesting idea.
Rolive@discuss.tchncs.de 1 month ago
Isn’t wind energy better on balconies?
meowmeowbeanz@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
The relentless march of sustainable cosplay continues. A million Germans clinging to plasticky solar trinkets like rosary beads against energy insecurity—how very on-brand for a nation that dismantled nuclear plants to cozy up with Putin’s pipelines. Nothing screams “green revolution” like propping up coal while bureaucrats hyperventilate over balcony wattage permits.
But sure, let’s pretend these glorified battery chargers absolve collective guilt. Social media’s latest performative ritual—slap a panel on your railing, flood Instagram with hashtags, ignore the 14-month waiting list for certified installers. Peak late-stage decarbonization theater: all aesthetics, no grid.
At least it’s honest. We’ve stopped pretending policy can fix anything. Why demand competent governance when you can DIY your dystopia?
windowsphoneguy@feddit.org 2 months ago
This article is more than 1 month old
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 month ago
It’s going to be hard to justify production costs, but in places that subsidize it: it makes perfect sense to scale up solar wherever possible.
Jolteon@lemmy.zip 1 month ago
This is great for people who live in the middling latitudes.
dahpu@feddit.org 2 months ago
For first few seconds, I deadass though they are talking about Germans with a height of 1,5 meters.
Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 months ago
Only German this high have balcony solar
Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 1 month ago
So why won’t taller Germans get solar? I don’t even see the connection to height… Oh, maybe they hit their heads on the panels… No, rooftop panels are already on the roof. I don’t get it.