Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents

Comments

• UID_Zero@infosec.pub ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

  We’d still have my wife’s ICE van, we both work from home, and 99% of the time my work-related travel is local (within 5 miles). My wife’s van can pull the camper for our camping trips, or for our longer drives.

  I have no good reason not to get an EV for my next car.

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  • lovesickoyster@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

    I was too - that was until this year when I’ve had to do multiple 800km long trips and I’ve found out that mentally I can’t really do longer than 200-250 km without a 20 min break. With that in mind, most of the EVs would be perfectly fine for me.

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  • jmp242@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I would actually consider if you actually need 2 cars at all given your description of the situation. If we’re worried about the environment flat getting rid of a car is a bigger win than an EV.

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    • KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If a car sits in the driveway 99% of the year, it’s not hurting the environment for 99% of its existence. If they continue to use it as a daily driver, I agree with you. But keeping a second vehicle for situations where it is specifically suited isn’t really that big a problem.

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    • UID_Zero@infosec.pub ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’ve very seriously considered that. Right now, we could probably go down to one car without issue. We have two reasons why I’d like to maintain a second, though. We have young kids, and we are already starting to run them around to different places at the same time. We’re looking to move soon, and the idea is to move outside of town where we have more room. That would make basically every drive longer, which would increase the likelihood of needing a second vehicle.

      Either way, an EV should be fine. Depending on cost, I might stick with a small, used ICE this time, because I don’t need much. But I’m not at that point quite yet, so maybe things will change by the time I’m ready.

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  • cryostars@lemmyf.uk ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Repairability is a big one for reasons not to get a new ev for me

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    • helenslunch@feddit.nl ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Why would you think EVs are not repairable?

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  • FrostKing@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Genuine question, not meant to be an insult:

    If most of your trips are within 5 miles, why would you drive? It seems excessive when you could just walk, or cycle, etc.

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    • UID_Zero@infosec.pub ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well, I’m in the midwest US, so winter can be a bit harsh for walking or biking (though not this year thus far). Most of the time I drive, I’m dragging kids somewhere. It’s inconvenient to walk with them.

      I have been walking and or biking when it’s just me, and I don’t need to haul much. I’ve lost a lot of weight recently, so I can actually bike to work in the summer and not be a sweaty mess when I arrive, so that’s a nice change.

      We are taking about moving outside the city to have more space, which means not driving will become less possible for almost everything. Today I have groceries, dentist, and doctor within half a mile, and I’ve walked or biked to those places many times.

      Bottom line, most of the time I’m either dragging kids around or I’m in a rush. Driving is very convenient, and is hard to change.

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    • blackn1ght@feddit.uk ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If it’s work related I’d imagine time would play a big part of it. They’re not going to walk up to 5 miles to the client and then 5 miles back. And it’s not a good option if they have to take along something big and bulky or if the weather is crap.

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  • flatplutosociety@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’m in the same boat. I make drives that require refueling even if I leave home with a full tank once every other year (Philly to Indianapolis). Even with a very high range EV, that would probably require multiple recharges each way, so that’s not a great use case for EVs, but you know what? That’s what rental cars are for. I’ll happily get an EV for the 99% of driving that I do within three hours of the Philly metro area and rent an ICE car for the at worst annual trip I take that isn’t convenient in an EV.

    Of course, this is all theoretical for me because I drive a company car and so don’t have much choice in my vehicle, and I probably won’t have to buy my own car until that job perk goes away.

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  • AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There’s a demographic of people with their own home, at least two cars, and qualify for rebates, where an EV should be an easy decision

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• BigBenis@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve had an EV for 9 months now and I’ve actually experienced far less range anxiety with my EV than with my previous ICEs. This is due to the fact that because I can charge overnight in my garage I almost never leave home without a full battery. Versus before with my ICEs where I’d often be driving across town on fumes because I’d forgotten to fuel up the night before.

  I drive in the city/urban areas the vast majority of the time so 200+ miles of range is plenty for my day-to-day needs. I’ve honestly never run into a situation where I’ve been worried about running out of juice; I rarely even get below 50%.

  As for longer drives, I’ve done several 600+ mile road trips without issue. Sure, charging takes a bit longer than fueling up at a gas station but the opportunity to stretch my legs, rest in the car, or get a bite to eat does wonders for fighting road fatigue. As for finding charging stations, I’d recommend planning your route beforehand but the charging network is dense enough in my region to where I can choose to skip a station if it’s too busy and try the next one.

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  • Socsa@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yup, this is the part people seem unable to wrap their heads around. Waking up with a full battery every morning and never needing to play the whole “I probably have enough to make it to work and back” game is insanely liberating.

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  • set_secret@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This has been my experience too, I’ve put 90k on my EV in the past 2 years. I’ve never experienced range anxiety, and I live in Australia which is a similar size to USA and we do regular road road trips of 5 plus hours.

    Road trips in EVs are actully more chill because the car informs you where and when to charg and you never wait more than 30 mins to complete a charge, which frankly is how long you should be resting between 3 hour driving stints anyway. Evs actually discourage driver fatigue which has to be a plus no one mentions too.

    Every single range anxiety issue I’ve read about has been from a person who almost certainly doesn’t own, and hasn’t driven an EV or has some weird preserve petrol agenda.

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• sarge@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  There’s no fear mongering about it! I’m anxious about the range of an electric car and not having a quick and convenient way to refuel if I near empty.

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  • QuarterSwede@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Honestly, track how far you normally drive and you’ll see you don’t go that far. My PHEV has a paltry 26 mile range and we use electric only 90% of the time. An EV with 200+ miles wouldn’t be an issue unless you travel for work.

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    • fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      People really like to overestimate how much range they actually need on a daily basis.

      I drive maybe 200 miles a week. Almost all EVs could easily get that range in spring/fall. And even in the worst of winter as long as I have 120 volts to keep the battery warm I’ll make it through the week no problem.

      Honestly big fast charger networks aren’t the biggest hurdle. We need basic 120v or 240v outlets ran to every apartment/town homes parking spot. With essentially a trickle from 120v you’ll be fine for 90% of your driving needs.

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  • PoopMonster@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Even when you plan ahead on a road trip there’s a pretty high chance half the chargers are down and there’s a queue of cars waiting. Made it to the next stop on my last trip with 4 miles to spare. That was a nerve-wracking drive.

    Now I gotta check plug share to see recent reviews on stations and decide whether or not to take my ev.

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    • TrumpetX@programming.dev ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’ve owned an electric since 2013, never run into a down charging station. Early on, I’d run into single chargers that were occupied, but that’s it.

      Not saying it’s not possible to have a broken station, just never hit it. But I, like most people, charge at home, 95% of the time.

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  • Pretzilla@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Sounds like you are fear mongering

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    • Frozengyro@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      So 41% of EV drivers worry about it? That’s an issue! I’m guessing only 5-10% of ice drivers every worry about running out of gas.

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    • jmp242@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      What you’re not addressing is that current EV drivers change how they drive, i.e. don’t go on the same sort of trips the same way (if the various articles on that site are to be believed). This isn’t addressing range anxiety, it’s saying plan your trips around charging your car so we work around the problem. And the problem isn’t “range” now - it’s where are the fast chargers? It’s getting better, but it’s still hard enough to pull off that there are regular youtube and news articles about the hassles and issues doing a road trip in an EV. No one does the same sort of reporting on ICE because you can find gas stations just about everywhere every 5-10 miles just about anywhere you go, and where it isn’t there is some reporting of the signs saying “last gas for 100 miles” or whatever. People know they can find a gas station, even if they’re going into a rural area.

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    • helenslunch@feddit.nl ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      So you’re saying 41% of EV owners have range anxiety? That’s a pretty significant portion…

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  • AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’m still new to EVs but with the convenience of charging from home, my battery is just never low. Think of it like charging your phone: start every morning with a full charge and you just don’t have to worry about it

    (Actually have mine set to stop charging at 80% and I don’t drive much at the moment so don’t plug-in every night)

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  • tsonfeir@lemm.ee ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s really the time to refuel. I can plan out spots to charge on a long drive, but if I have to wait that long, I can’t just refuel quickly if I forgot to plug it in last night.

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• ExLisper@linux.community ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As a EV owner I don’t worry about range that much but I’m constantly infuriated by the shitty charging experience. Charging at home is great but road trips are a constant pain in the ass. Let’s face it, most people are not interested in switching to EV at all find an excuse until ICE cars are banned (I’m looking at you people with two family cars and private garage). You want to convince the people actually thinking about it? Make charging work.

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  • Fal@yiffit.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The experience is pretty fine at the Tesla superchargers

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    • ExLisper@linux.community ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yes but we all know what the issues with Tesla are.

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  • soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I have to disagree, people like you described are not aware of the charging infrastructure app ridden sign up and reliability bullshit. Fixing that isn’t going to make Karen who’s never owned an EV buy one.

    Your suggestion will only help people who already own an EV and understand the struggle.

    I’m from UK and Tesla type 2 super chargers are now available for all EVs. Pretty sweet

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    • beefontoast@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      This sign-up pain is real. There should be a global standard that says everyone can use a contactless debit or credit card to pay ALWAYS, and the cost rate is the same as signing up to an account.

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    • ExLisper@linux.community ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’m saying that Karen will not even consider EV because insert default excuse. People that do consider EVs will investigate the state of the infrastructure a bit and decide to wait. Play store and other pages are full of reviews. Also, anyone riding with me see the issues. You don’t have to own an EV to be aware of the issues.

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  • nifty@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Plenty of people with two family and private garages have EVs, they get level 2 chargers or something like that hooked up for charging at home. You’re right about the charging experience though, it seems to me that too many people have EVs but not enough public garages or outside parking spaces have chargers.

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    • ExLisper@linux.community ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      What I mean is that there’s nothing more we can do to sell an EV to a family like this. Sure, lots of people already own EVs but many will not buy and EV even if they are in the perfect situation to get one. This people will only get an EV when ICE cars are gone.

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  • billwashere@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah my thoughts exactly. My comment was downvoted but said something similar. It’s all about charging being too slow, generally incompatible, and there not being enough of them. Once the infrastructure is fixed, acceptance will be much higher. There are so many things to like about EVs. Cheaper maintenance, cheaper operating costs, quieter, less pollution, much simpler design so less likely to break, better handling due to lower center of mass (generally), less consumables (like brakes … thanks regenerative braking), and darnit just plain fun to drive.

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• theyoyomaster@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Where I used to live and work near Hartford range anxiety wouldn’t be an issue. Where I now live and work in Oklahoma it still is an extremely big issue. A friend in CO with an EV wanted to come visit but couldn’t make the drive in one day due to charging options. Hell, if I want to go on a 4 hour drive to Amarillo I need to carefully plan my fuel stops because there’s hundred mile stretches where I can’t even fill up my Ford Focus, let alone charge a Tesla. Range anxiety is a legitimate concern for much of the country.

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  • hakobo@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    For much of the country in terms of land maybe, but not in terms of people. Most people live in or near high population areas where using an EV is fine. The person in question saying that fear mongering needs to stop was the governor of Connecticut. Connecticut is not Oklahoma. There is zero reason to fear monger range anxiety in Connecticut.

    But even for people in places like Oklahoma, there’s a couple things you should consider. First is, don’t rush out and buy an EV just because you feel like you’re being told to. Only buy an EV once your existing vehicle is no longer viable. Buying a new car when your old one still works is not very green. But definitely consider an EV when the time comes, even if you have range anxiety. Why? For one, the money you will save on gas can allow you to rent a gas car for those long trips you need to make and then you don’t have to put those extra miles on your own car. Remember, tires are expensive and wear down with miles driven. Or, with the money saved from gas, you could take a bus, a train, or possibly even an airplane. Or if you really don’t want to do any of that, you could probably find a buddy who still has a gas car and trade for the week. Just because you buy an electric vehicle, doesn’t mean you are now locked out of ever using a different kind of transportation. But number 2? Over the coming years, EV infrastructure will be constantly increasing. Yeah, some states are being regressive at the moment, but they will turn around. So even in places were range anxiety is legitimate, it won’t be a problem for much longer, except in those edge cases where even a gas car currently has issues, but since even a gas car has issues, it doesn’t make a difference. And third? There are so many companies working on battery tech right now, it’s crazy. Some are working on higher energy density so we can get longer range, others are working on better materials so we can stop using unethically acquired minerals, some are working on making batteries that function better in the cold. None of this helps the car you buy today, but it will help the car you buy in 5 years.

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    • theyoyomaster@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      There’s a reason I specifically opened with how in CT it isn’t an issue before explaining that in the majority of the country (notice I said country vs the population) it still is. Like the CT governor you still seem to not quite grasp the reality of what it is like to live somewhere other than a built up urban area. There are no buses here, there are no trains here. If I wanted to rent a gas car, I need to drive 120 miles to the city because there isn’t a rental option in my town (which actually qualifies as a “city”. It’s an hour drive to the nearest movie theater. While NYC alone has more people than the entire state of OK, there are still millions of people living here that simply can’t get by with an EV for day to day lives, let alone if they want to make a trip by any transportation method. Add in the fact that even with current developments and proposals battery energy density is a hard limit of physics and chemistry, unless a completely new method of energy storage is invented it will always be 1/100th of what gasoline has meaning EVs will continue to be absurdly overweight. Don’t worry, I’m not in a rush to sell any of my ICE vehicles, at this point I might literally hold onto them forever because there isn’t a single car being made new right now that I like better than anything I currently own.

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• verdantbanana@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  some states like Tennessee have removed EV infrastructure the charging stations

  how is range not an issue

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  • Adalast@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    In your example it sounds more like Tennessee is the issue, not range anxiety. If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue? No, it is the people removing the infrastructure.

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    • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      From what I read online, Tennessee anxiety ought to be much more widespread than it seems to be.

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    • lightnsfw@reddthat.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If they were to remove all gasoline infrastructure suddenly ICE range anxiety would be a major issue?

      Yes… It would be an issue I you had a ICE car and couldn’t gas up in some states. That would be something you would have to account for. Same goes for not being able to charge an EV. Doesn’t really matter if it’s because some asshole did it for political reasons or not when you’re stranded on the side of the road.

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• Socsa@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As someone who has been driving an RV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.

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  • Wrench@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I have owned an EV for a couple years. Range is constantly on my mind. Did we charge it last night? Crap, we had a 70% charge and need to go across town. If we end up running side errands, we may be cutting it close" etc

    Far more mental overhead than the combustion engine car we also use.

    I ultimately like the EV, but don’t pretend that it’s biggest draw back shouldn’t be a point of discussion anymore.

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    • TheRealKuni@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      This is how I feel about the EV range…on my PHEV. We get 40 miles max (30 in the winter) in full EV mode, and so we stress about whether we can get through our daily trips on the battery. (Of course, when our relatively small battery runs out we just use gas.)

      But if we had the range that modern full EVs have I cannot imagine having range anxiety on an average day.

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    • Socsa@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yes, if you cannot charge at home or work, your experience will differ significantly from mine. But if you can, it’s a game changer. I feel like this qualification is implied at this point. If everyone with a private driveway and a normal commute went EV, the infrastructure for people in apartments would fall into place as well.

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    • partial_accumen@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Are there no (or few) DC fast chargers in your city? In your described situation, I’d have no problem pulling into any number of DC fast chargers for 5 minutes to put $1.75 of kw into the car to give me plenty of charge for peace of mind.

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  • CaptainProton@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Kind of exactly how every major political issue works: people with no or extremely limited personal experience repeating things they’ve been told by someone in their tribe.

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  • littlecolt@lemm.ee ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.

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• pythonoob@programming.dev ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.

  EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.

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  • lordkuri@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yup, we did 2 x 5200+ mile round trips this year with zero issues. I think the problem is that people don’t like the fact that you actually have to think a tiny bit and plan a tiny bit sometimes instead of just jumping in the car and going until it yells at you to stop and get gas. People in this country, especially the anti-ev crowd, really dislike having to think for themselves.

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• RainfallSonata@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  How about trains? Americans are too used to their cars for those long-range trips. Make them unnecessary. Have your car for local trips switch to trains for anything else.

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  • lagomorphlecture@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The Biden administration is working on improving train infrastructure but if you look at the map of what they’re adding, it’s limited to a very small section of the country. I mean, it’s like cross country but it’s such a massive country that it’s still super limited.

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    • verdantbanana@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      funny how biden said rail workers are not allowed to protest and ask for higher wages and better worker rights in general then bam comes out with expanding train infrastructure

      someone is definitely looking out for his constituents

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  • unconfirmedsourcesDOTgov@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yes, we should invest in trains, but this is not a short or even medium term solution. It’s also horrifyingly expensive in many parts of the US, and broad public support simply isn’t there. So in the mean time we need to adapt using the infrastructure that already exists.

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  • Chriswild@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Ideally I’d like trains for local trips and high speed rail for longer distances. I’d prefer to not own or use a car at all but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.

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    • JamesFire@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.

      We did it once, we can do it again!

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    • RainfallSonata@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Same, but tearing down and rebuilding cities is a feature, not a bug. Well, except for the carbon emissions involved in doing that.

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    • blackn1ght@feddit.uk ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Surely buses make way more sense for local trips.

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  • jabjoe@feddit.uk ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Years ago, I, a brit, was in Austin Texas for 7 weeks for work. During that time I thought it would good to go see New Orleans. I was like “I’ll just jump on a train and read and sleep until I’m there.” This what I had done in Europe. I had my error explained. So I drove. I mean, it was kind of interesting to see the different landscapes, but it was also really boring and time consuming. Basically got there, spent a few hours, and had to turn round and drive back.

    Why the hell doesn’t the US have a passenger train network??

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    • limelight79@lemm.ee ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      We do, it’s just very limited. Actually in Austin I think you could have pulled it off. You could have taken the Texas Eagle to San Antonio, then the Sunset Limited to New Orleans. It would have taken 27 hours and the Sunset Limited only runs 3 times a week, so if you departed Monday at 6:30 pm you’d be in NO Tuesday at 9:40 pm. Bon Voyage!

      Just kidding. As a rail fan, it bugs me, too. My wife and I spent two weeks in Germany, visiting multiple cities, and we used a private car once (a relative gave us a ride) and a taxi once. Otherwise it was all trains and the occasional city bus, plus one motorcoach that took us to Neuschwanstein. It was pretty nice.

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• Shdwdrgn@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This article doesn’t really touch on the biggest issue of getting into an EV - the price tag. I mean, $26k to get into an entry-level model? I paid $11k for my SUV, and the only reason I could afford that was due to a pay-out from the company that totaled my previous vehicle. Show me a used EV with towing and storage capacity more in the range of $6k that I can expect to drive for twenty years with basic maintenance and you might get me interested.

  Beyond that, they claim that an EV is cheaper to maintain over the years? OK I’ve been driving my used SUV for 15 years now and I’ve spent less than a grand on replacing parts (not including stuff like tires that are going to be replaced on any vehicle). My previous vehicle was driven for 24 years and cost even less to maintain because it didn’t have 4WD. It looks like within these time periods I would have expected to replace EV batteries several times (most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years), and how much would that have cost? I understand that most people can’t be bothered to learn how to perform even the most basic maintenance tasks and believe that you need to buy a new car every 5 years, but I would like to see realistic maintenance estimates for those of us who don’t treat our vehicles like a piece of disposable tupperware.

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  • puppy@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You got your current car for 11k but expext an EV to cost you 6k. Why is that? Shouldn’t you expect the EV to also cost in the same range as 11k to make it a fair comparison?

    In terms of battery replacement, have you calculated after how many miles the battery replacement becomes “free” because of gas savings? This changes for everyone based on their electricity prices and whether they have solar.

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    • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Because I got the current SUV from a dealership with all the attached mark-ups and fees, at a time when similar models were selling used for about half that cost. However because I had the money available I was willing to splurge on getting exactly the one I was looking for. Also, an EV is not an SUV, and certainly not 4WD with the stronger frame to support off-road use, so it shouldn’t cost as much. I actually bought my wife’s car, a 2006 Murano with 4WD, for $6000 from a dealership, so even that has more capability and probably more cargo space that a typical EV. My baseline is how much vehicle I can get for that price range.

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  • AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    A used market is mostly a matter of time. There just hasn’t been enough EVs available for long enough to have much of a used market

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    • reddig33@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The older EV models currently in the used market should be avoided. They are mostly compliance cars like the original Fiat 500e and the VW eGolf — slow charging only, small worn out batteries, and little range. Or they are first generation Leaf EVs with failing batteries that are out of warranty or cannot be replaced due to eternal back order at Nissan.

      The 2017-2019 Bolts can be a good buy if they’ve already had their batteries replaced under warranty/recall. Decent range and amenities, though some find the earlier model seats uncomfortable.

      This next generation of used EVs (cars shipping as new right now) will be great — longer range and faster charging.

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    • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Agreed, and there’s a LOT of usage in my area so I would expect there to be a decent used market. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be there yet. I know in time EVs will be as cheap and common as ICE vehicles are today, but personally I feel like currently they are still only available to people with a LOT of disposable cash.

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    • reddig33@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Related…

      electrek.co/…/top-ten-most-popular-used-evs-2023/

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  • snowe@programming.dev ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. In regards to used EVs for 6k, they’re all over the place. Just look for Nissan leafs or Priuses.

    most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years

    That’s until it’s at like 85-95% capacity. Ev batteries will last for decades no problem. And if you had that little maintenance on your car then you’re just not taking care of it. Oil literally would cost over a thousand dollars just by itself, so if you’re not replacing the oil you’re irreparably damaging your vehicle. (12k miles a year, replace minimum every 6k miles unless you’ve done an oil test and have a custom timeline, $30-50 each time, so $100 a year minimum on just one thing).

    I’m sorry but your numbers just outright do not add up at all. You clearly either abused your car and actually didn’t maintain it, or you maintained it and have no clue the true cost.

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    • jmp242@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. The problem is - like in my super long comment down below - It’s hard to sell people on go from 1 vehicle that does 100% of my use cases now to 1 vehicle that does 95% of my use cases. This is just inherently a hard sell.

      What I do is I have an extra truck for towing, which I rarely need to use - but it’s not cheap to do this, and many people can’t or won’t. But even then, having a “good for commuting only” vehicle is an even harder sell. I know people who do this, but that can be hard to hit IMHO. While all you need and all you miss with towing is… towing, a “good commuter car” might well be something that is small, 2WD, and doesn’t really have cargo space or back seats. Many people however have young kids (need pretty large car seats), or want to take 3-4 people on trips, or want to go shopping for stuff and minimize the needed delivery fees, or have bad weather and want AWD/4WD. It’s easy to get a truck or SUV that does all of that AND towing, but it’s hard to get an economical EV that does all of that minus towing.

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    • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I’ve read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don’t have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.

      I’ve been using full synthetic in my SUV, it’s good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.

      And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don’t remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife’s car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there’s a few other things I didn’t add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?

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  • soggy_kitty@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Are you comparing cost of used ICE Vs new EV?

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• jmp242@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I read the article and clicked through their own reporting on range anxiety: cleantechnica.com/…/is-range-anxiety-really-worth…

  According to data from the US Department of Transportation, 95.1% of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60% of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average US driver only covers about 37 miles per day.

  it seems to me that this screams out for better shared transportation - If I’m going less than 6 miles, I’d much prefer an Uber or easy subway ride or the like to owning a car at all. However, that’s something government would actually have to fund and do something rather than just passing rules on to other people to make happen.

  That minor rant aside - I still maintain that the 37 miles per day is a commute and going out to lunch. If we actually wanted to have people change habits in a really useful way - it’d be to start incentivising / mandating telework where possible - stop all the unnecessary car traffic of any kind. You know what’s more environmentally friendly than ZEV vehicles? No vehicle (use).

  That all said - most people I know buy vehicles to solve as close to 100% of their needs, not 95.1% - because vehicles are so expensive. The range anxiety haven’t been about the daily commute for like a decade - even the 87 mile leaf did that fine and most anyone I’ve ever talked to was perfectly OK if they had the leaf JUST to drive to work and back in the summer / nice weather. Very few people buy a car like that though, because they need to get through bad weather or carry more stuff or people or tow or …

  And then there’s the all american road trip. Roughly once a month I go 180 miles one way on a quick trip to see family. They don’t have a car charger setup anywhere. I’m not at all sure if they can run an extension cord out, but then I’m on slow charging, and I also drive around while I’m there (unless I asked to use their car for all trips). I’m usually there for a couple days and come back. I have to get gas on each trip. This is not in reality if I had a leaf. If I had a more expensive car it’s do-able, but I still would be anxious till there’s more “top up” points. I go by probably 20 gas stations I notice on the trip, and there’s probably 100+ more within 2-3 miles from the route I take. I know of one charging station.

  They have an answer in the article

  Plan your route: PlugShare and other apps allow you to determine where chargers are located along your intended route as well as details like the hours they’re open, the cost to charge, whether it’s a public or private facility, and user reviews. It reminds me of childhood trips we took when my parents used Trip Ticks from AAA to determine best roads and attractions. Being organized makes any trip more pleasant, and being aware of possible charging stops ahead creates a sense of calm in you and your passengers.

  Yes - plan you trip around your car. I mean, sure, but harkening back to needing Trip Ticks like in the early 1990s isn’t exactly a “towards the future” sort of vibe. And they’re right - a lot of it is vibe.

  Limit your use of air conditioning or heat when possible: So be uncomfortable… I never think about turning on aircon or heat in my ICE car. This is a stupid “fix a perceived problem” statement.

  Plan errands to intersect with available chargers Again, live your life around your car - this just is absurd. If I’m planning errands around my transportation, I ought to be able to use public transport and get better returns for the hassle - but I can’t because our public transport is shit, and also it’s probably not feasible in the vast rural areas of the US.

  Stay calm, breathe deeply: According to research in the Journal of Advanced Transportation, range voltage depends on a variety of factors, including emotional type, age, and driving experience, and these factors may influence how susceptible you are to range anxiety.

  Yes, get some therapy and Xanax and you too can love the EV.

  Ok, but ranting about the sheer stupidity and patronizing nature of the article around range anxiety over - back to the road trip. Many people like to drive to their vacations to save money, especially if they have 3+ people going and would have to also rent a car at the other end of a flight. My next trip is a 900 mile trip over 2 days. With ICE I literally just put it in my GPS and go - no issues because I can stop and get gas ANYWHERE. We’re just NOT THERE yet with chargers, and even with superchargers, we’re talking going from a 10 minute break to get gas, grab a snack and use the restroom to more like 30 minutes waiting for the car. I don’t have issues with planning lunch or dinner around that, IF I could be sure there was a super charger where it makes sense to break.

  The thing that’s stupid is it’s not “range anxiety” really, I have to worry about getting gas and finding a gas station. We just have gas stations already built out and getting gas is a 5 minute process to get another 360+ miles of range. If the charging was close to that to add 360+ miles of range, no one would blink an eye, but instead, it’s 30 minutes to add maybe 100 miles of range - which leads to making trips take much longer in many cases. The other anxiety inducing thing is if you run out of gas, AAA can bring you 2 gallons to get you to a station. I haven’t heard about the equivalent for EVs yet.

  The important thing is - talking down to people isn’t going to get them to listen to you. Telling people they shouldn’t worry about their yearly or more often road trips because normally they’re driving to work and back isn’t a great sales pitch really. If I have to rent an ICE car 2 times a year for a road trip, that’s at least $1,000 each time, which itself pays for a lot of gas, or 3 new car payments (for most people). It doesn’t make people think EVs are cheaper.

  Me feeling this way is a problem, because I do think EVs are a good thing, and I really want one, but not for massively more than a direct replacement of my existing ICE car, and not if I have to also maintain an ICE car for trips. One car is cheaper than two to keep going no matter how frugal the second car is.

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• Patches@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?

  Generators aren’t very expensive relatively speaking.

  Yet I’ve never heard not seen this anywhere, and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.

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• reddig33@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The irony of using a Bolt EV in the accompanying photograph. A car with some of the slowest DC fast charging, and a battery that’s been reduced to 80% capacity for three years by the company who makes it.

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• BlackNo1@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  how about evs arnt the fucking solution and build some fucking decent infrastructure

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• Poem_for_your_sprog@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Why aren’t plug in hybrids getting pushed harder?

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• billwashere@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Range anxiety is basically a myth or at least a real anxiety masquerading as range anxiety. Who hasn’t been out on the boonies somewhere late at night running out of gas and wondering if you were going to make it to a gas station … the real anxiety is refuel anxiety. As soon as universal fast electric charging stations are ubiquitous this “range anxiety” will suddenly disappear. Most ICE cars only have around a 300-400 mile range tops (unless maybe the hybrids) and that is never talked about. It’s not range that is the problem.

  Heck 95% of my driving would be more than ok with 50 mile range if I could charge at work and it only took a few minutes to charge. An ultra capacitor car would likely fit this bill.

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• ExLisper@linux.community ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Switching to an EV is not “free”. You have to do some research, learn some new things and gain a bit of experience. Some people (for example the elderly but also stupid people) will have real issues adapting to new infrastructure. Even more people are simply to lazy to bother, will always see the effort required to switch to an EV as completely unnecessary and will complain loudly when forced to do it. The best option would be probably to wait for “EV first” generations of drivers to simply replace the current ones but we don’t have time for it. Other option would be to make the switch completely painless (imagine having a charging plug right next to the gasoline dispenser on every gas station, simply choose from diesel, gas or electric) but we’re currently very very far away from this dream. So yeah, the only option is to force people slowly to make the effort and at the same time work on making it easy enough so they don’t revolt.

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• wooki@lemmynsfw.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This message, proudly sponsored by Tesla.

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• BeautifulMind@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Ehhh. For the range-anxious until charging infra catches up, there can be PHEVs.

  I’ve been excited to have my next vehicle be a BEV for a while now, but having rented a Tesla while on vacation in Michigan (where the infra wasn’t exactly good for it) I understand why people might have reservations about jumping in with both feet. Also now that I’ve interacted with the vehicles and got a better idea of Tesla as a company, I won’t be buying one.

  For the moment, given my use cases (I periodically have to drive between western WA and central UT) my next vehicle will likely be a PHEV unless there are real breakthroughs in EVs (fuel cells? swappable battery standards?) or charging infra where I need it.

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• salami0@lemmyhub.com ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You guys are allowed to leave work?

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• M0oP0o@mander.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I have to commute one way 250 kms with one settlement on the way (75 km from one end) for work. There are not many EVs now that I would be comfy making that trip right now (more so after the battery ages a few years, in winter etc.) but their are some. In some countries the range in fine, in cities the range is fine but where I am the range is the major limiting factor. Please don’t call market demands “fear mongering” just give me more range.

  I don’t need any super acceleration or a top speed 2x the speed limit, I want range.

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• unreasonabro@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  can we just start calling it tardtalk

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• TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I mean, worst case, just buy and bring a gas generator with you if you think you are going to be reaching those limits. With an EV, anyone can have a plug-in hybrid.

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• spyd3r@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?

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