Submitted 3 weeks ago by sqgl@sh.itjust.works to technology@lemmy.world
Halfway through he describes this as malicious compliance with the “right to repair” law. Apple and others are making a mockery of the law.
They lock the parking brake behind a paywall on the scanner, so you have to pay a subscription fee. Chrysler has the parking brake service mode on the vehicle for users. VAG, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, GM etc all do it. It just make servicing more expensive for consumers, because the cost all gets passed down.
Why is the parking brake involved with the computer at all…
It’s an electronic parking brake. Those are common now because a small switch takes up less interior space than a lever for a cable-actuated parking brake. The computer is involved in brake pad replacement to tell the parking brake motor to open to its widest position to accept new pads, and calibrate itself to their thickness.
This requires a special adapter and software subscription rather than a button on the infotainment screen because Hyundai is engaging in rent-seeking and perhaps trying to direct business to its dealers.
Because OEMs have all decided that the mechanical one was insufficient…
It is and it isn’t. To use the onboard control to actuate the parking brake, yes, you have to use the paywalled software. But it’s a simple motor. Positive and negative. If you disconnect the connector at the parking brake and use fused jumper leads to a 12v battery, you can cause the actuator to go forward or backwards. Make sure the parking brake isn’t applied before doing anything, disconnect the cars battery, disconnect the p brake connector, jump the terminals once you figure out which polarity causes the retraction. Manually compress the caliper piston, replace the pads (and hopefully the rotors too). Pump the brake pedal as you would normally once everything is replaced, reconnect everything, and you’re good to go. in my experience this doesn’t work on ford but there’s a service procedure that doesn’t use a scanner to force the park brake into service mode. There’s always a way around dumb stuff like this
Must be newer VAG vehicles then, mine definitely needed a scan tool to put on service mode. Though it’s also pretty old. I had a newer Mercedes and that had a hidden service menu that allowed me to do the brakes.
Yep, obdeleven let’s you go into the basic settings because most of the times they have the passwords in the app. On the newer cars, especially audi, the service reset (not the oil reset) is behind a paywall. Maybe depends.on the scanner, but the autel and topdon ones need an additional subscription, along with Nissan, Chrysler etc
Probably like Chrysler, they were in bed together at one point. Just like merc, Chrysler has the junctions for network, similar aux battery, and so on. Most Chrysler you can just stomp the gas pedal 3 times to reset the oil light in addition to the instrument cluster shortcut.
you are on lemmy pointing media bias as novelty? next you are going to shock us by telling us Reddit is mostly bots and sad power crazed admins
No…?
TL;DW; he bypasses the whole 2500 dollar software thing by using common sense that the caliper only has two wires in it so you just need to feed a positive and negative power line to it from a low voltage power source and it will extend or retract the electric caliper as needed.
While I agree with you that there’s an easy fix, it wouldn’t cost them anything to make holding the handbrake release switch enter maintenance mode.
Also, wait until they release a face lift with new some arbitrary signal to control it.
Yeah, i watched the video and the dude just yap and yap and yap non-stop, and the actual content is only at the front of it.
That trick works with all EPB, you can also take off the motor and turn the mechanism yourself, that’s how all backyard mechanic does it for every car with EPB without buying the tools meant for workshop. There’s nothing special to it. Dude could’ve save a lot by send it to dealership instead.
you can also take off the motor and turn the mechanism yourself, that’s how all backyard mechanic does it for every car with EPB
I’m a mechanic and no, you cannot do that
also all car with EPB works that way, this is not uniquely hyundai
partial bullshit… it’s definitely a trend but 2 years ago I did the breaks on my buddy’s Ford Explorer 2021 (not 100% on the year). It had EPB but also a dash sequence to enable maintenance mode
Hyundai is not the only brand for sure but the paywall is just unnecessary bullshit
The drama is that this is an entirely unnecessary step that adds extra work for the technician/owner that wants to change rear brake pads/rotors, which are a wear item.
I’ve been doing brakes on mine and my family’s cars for over a decade. It’s dramatically cheaper to buy pads and rotors and swap them myself, and if I do it myself I know that it was done right and there’s antiseize everywhere it should be. So now in addition to all the work of jacking the car up, removing tires, removing the calipers, depressing the caliper, cleaning the hub, coating the hub with antiseize, cleaning the guide pins, reinstalling and torquing everything to spec, I now have to get a battery/transformer/charger and wire into a sensor to tell the stupid fucking computer that the pads and rotors are new. Why can’t the computer use a position sensor to just detect that there’s now thicker material there? Why isn’t there just an option in the maintenance settings that you can press to say that you’ve done the work and to reset the maintenance interval? Fuck this shit, doing brakes is already a time sink if you live in the rust belt, and this system adds nothing but an extra cost or extra work to the person performing the work. There’s no safety gain from it existing, it’s fucking stupid.
You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
You sound pretty stupid. Even if you were right, this is wildly unnecessary to go through to change brakes. I’ve been changing my own brakes since I learned to drive and have never had to touch anything other than the wheels and brake pedals. Your take is wild.
Welcome to the future, you will own nothing and be happy about it.
it’s a matter if time until they make Linux for cars.
They’re still stuck on Linux for mobile.
you mean the technicality that android is Linux based?
Me and my 11 year old just changed the rear shocks on my car, 18mm socket and wrench, 45 minutes of time. I’ll never buy a vehicle with these types of paywalls.
Doing some major repairs to my 25 year old vehicle today also. New shit is junk.
More up to date info here: hackaday.com/…/hyundai-paywalls-brake-pad-changes… You can do it with just a $300 bidirectional scan tool from Harbor Freight.
And the OOP responding about it: www.reddit.com/r/Ioniq5N/comments/…/nonp97y/
Yeah we definitely need open source vehicles/transportation initiatives for everything: trains, trams, hsr, cars, etc
Cruise missiles too.
You’re funny
And that’s when I switched a while ago from a modern Bentley to an “ancient” mechanical car from a past long forgotten. Every electrical gadget is local, and it just has android auto (dedicated isolated phone just for the car) with a fake google account for navigation. Everyone thinks we’re broke lol, but I’m so fed with this shit. Even a silly backlight went from 5 bucks for a replacement-bulb to 1500 bucks for the whole led-package. Parts alone, add the mechanic and the many hours needed.
Heard that all brands do this shit though. Like even disabling things remotely that are there but you didn’t subscribe to. This is bonkers.
even disabling things remotely that are there but you didn’t subscribe to. This is bonkers.
I don’t understand the consumer outrage about that though. It is like paying to unlock satellite TV reception (even though we are receiving the signals the whole time).
The best (worst) example I’ve seen in recent memory has been seat warmers. BMW and other manufacturers tried forcing a subscription on people just to use the seat warmers that are (1) already present in the car, (2) already wired up with buttons in place, and (3) cause no additional outlay of effort on the part of the manufacturer once they’re installed. There’s no valid reason to charge a subscription for something like that beyond straight greed.
Because, it’s already built into my car, i already paid for the car, the whole transaction is concluded. Paying in hindsight for a part of it, that is already there, is not really justified at all. If they built the car without one, and would have to add it later, then it would make sense. So if it would be more expensive to have my car explicitly built without this feature, why does it suddenly cost money when i decide i want it later?
The signal-broadcast all around everywhere and just YOU paying is simply for the fact they they can’t route them specifically to just YOUR house. It might sound equally unfair but it’s a clear distinction based on technical impossibility.
It is like paying to unlock satellite TV reception (even though we are receiving the signals the whole time).
It’s reasonable to charge for this because the value is in copyrighted content and a service that costs the provider money to operate. The same would apply for satellite radio in a car or an internet-based streaming service. It is not reasonable to charge for access to the adaptive suspension or seat warmers that are already in a car a customer bought. That breaks the traditional model of ownership.
An interesting middle ground might be to allow the owner to install arbitrary software on the car, and charge for the OEM adaptive suspension app. I think I would like a world where things work like that; OEMs would whine about security to no end.
I think it should be legal to attempt to decrypt satellite signals without paying; if the satellite service is designed well, it won’t be possible. All the anticircumvention laws should be repealed.
Is it possible to retrofit a used “computer” vehicle and remove all digital tech to make it electromechanical again, where the owner has complete control of what they purchased?
“All” digital tech?
I don’t think most people realize that any powertrain new enough to even have fuel injection is going to be a “computer vehicle” in some capacity. How are you with carburetors?
That’s not really true. The first fuel injection systems were mechanical. The first one of those used in a gasoline-powered 4-stroke car engine was in 1955. Bosch mechanical FI systems were common in higher-end European cars from then on. Digital electronic fuel injection controllers weren’t common until the 1980s, though there were some EFI systems controlled by what were essentially crude analog computers as far back as the late 1950s. I know that Volvo had such a system in the late 60s since I owned one. It was extremely reliable.
I’m great at carburetors. Especially the Holley 4 barrel carb. Trial and error made me good at it. I had the freedom to try. We no longer have that. So, yes, all digital tech. Just electromechanical so we can save huge amounts of dollars by not getting involved in the “repair industry”. Transmissions are a different beast but if all the “Chilton’s’” auto repair manuals have not been secreted away and completely destroyed then I at least have a fighting chance to figure it out.
It’d be easier to simply hack the software and reprogram it to just act normal
Duck their software licenses. I buy a car, I pay for it, it’s MY car and I will very much decide how to use it
The problem is bugs being far bigger issue. Imagine a bug/crash causing your throttle to get stuck and brakes not working.
If it happens now, at least it’s the manufacturer who’d be liable, I hope.
I want a completely separate emergency shutdown+brake.
Possible? Yes. Practical? No. You can’t just cut the harnesses out and suddenly it’s a different engine, you’d have to replace what you deleted with something and that something might not exist yet because there’s no money in developing it.
Right. Pretty much everything is computer now. Even in the last 20-30 years, a lot of engine control has been done by computer. You’d have to go back pretty far to find one with no digital circuitry.
If you wanted to retrofit a modern car, like you said, you’d have to replace the entire compter system with a new one, or replace everything with linkages. Are any controls directly connected any more, or are cars 100% drive-by-wire?
they dont charge those paywalls to dealers, this is just a way to force consumers to service their cars with expensive partners
It’ll be reverse engineered and a tool on AliExpress for $50 within a few months.
Then it’s just an arms race between the OTA updates and the pirates.
Haltech ECU, but the BCM controls the other parts of the vrhicle like locks, windows, seats, radio etc it’s possible with a lot of work.
This isn’t a new thing. Almost every car that has an electrical park brake advises you to use software to change change out your rear brake pads, as when you release your Electric Park Brake (EPB), the EPB motor doesn’t wind back enough, to give you the space required to install new pads and/or rotors, it only winds back enough to release pressure off the piston pushing the pad, which this has been in production cars since 2001 (some cars have brake maintenance modes which can be activated without software, Mazda first comes to mind with this). This whole Hyundai/Kia deal reminds me of Volkswagen back when they were intoducting proprietary software for vehicle maintenance, which led to a guy getting mad and making his own software that does everything the factory software does for a fraction of the cost and arguably better (Rosstech/VCDS) which I feel will happen soon with Hyundai. But being mad just at just Hyundai for this is the wrong mindsent, almost every car manufacturer does this and for a long time, and needs to stop. Even for dealerships this is horrendous because it uses a always online software that if you live somewhere with bad internet or GPS connection, stops you from even just resetting the service interval, which as usual is explained as being a good thing for “safety reasons” by the manufacturer.
The new thing is that the user bought a professional scan tool and license and he still couldn’t do anything because he didn’t have a business license. Hyundai said the software was “not for DIYers”.
The other guy commenting is somewhat right, the user shouldn’t have bought this tool for DIY use, as most dealership software won’t work for DIY use because it is also a warranty tool, hence the need for a business license, the diagnostic software will record everything you do, upload a log file for the manufacturer to read to make sure they carry out the repairs correctly/services are inline with schedules, and they need that business license information so they know who to approve or deny a claim to. every manufacturer will have a software that does this and they shouldn’t be used for DIY use because it simply won’t work (unless there are cracked versions where people have remove that functionality, I believe there is software for Subaru and Toyota out there like this). There is other tools for the DIY use that are a fraction of the cost that does what you need, and most aren’t vehicle/brand specific, and good brands of OBD2 scanners will regularly pushout updates to cover more cars and more test functions over time. The issue mainly I see is manufacturers hide this information and unless you are well knowledged in the field or know a guy, the cheap and safe route is often so incredibly difficult to find and usually ends up in people confused and scared to work on their own cars, which sucks because the premise of all the hardware used in cars isn’t really that far from 50 years ago, software and 4-8km of wiring can scare people and the manufacturers want that because it scares people out of DIY fixes but still ticks the boxes of right to repair laws. (Sorry for the big comments, I can’t keep them small)
He shouldn’t even have bought that. Most manufacturers give the diagnostic info to 3rd parties who build consumer tools. That’s how things like iCarsoft support a lot of these dealership tool functions.
What’s stopping people from disconnecting the EPB and manually connecting a battery to the motor to wind it back?
Nothing really, if it works, it works, But do have to be mindful though that the wind back function could also be a recalibration of the motor to know where the pistion is in some manufacturers. Some manufacturers the Body Control Module (BCM) might not care that it took 3 seconds longer then last time before there was resistance on the EPB, where as in some it’ll flag that there was a large discrepancy and put a warning on the dash and maybe disable the park brake, or ABS and the BCM will require a test function to be ran to recalibrate the EPB before regaining the functionality, but again this is manufacter specific
So they chose to go the John Deere way.
They did but they are actually far worse. John Deere is into some DRM bullshit but Kia / Hyundai dealerships have the worst record for recommending things you don’t actually need and then over charging you.
I’ve been wondering about the costs of actually having a car custom built. I obviously have neither the know-how nor the place to build my own car, but are there some garages where you can just order the parts and have others assemble it for you? I know it would be expensive as fuck, but having a road-safe, road-legal car with no on-board computer (except maybe a rear view camera… something that doesn’t need connectivity) would be worth it. They might need a vehicle Black Box, but many of those only old data for the last few seconds only in the event of a collision or accident and do not keep geolocation or personal driving data.
What you want to look into is body kits. It’s taking a car, removing parts, and putting on replacements that have fittings that attach the same, but look completely different on the outside. There are many types of cars that have become the most popular to customize and have the most options, but tons of cars can be changed significantly. There are even some body kits that change everyday cards into looking like completely different cards (“kit cars”, I think they’re called), and lawsuits around some similarities of body kits. There’s also tons of YouTubers that do videos on this, and a whole culture about it. Usually they go for more flashy, and more tech, but you can probably go the other way pretty easily too depending on your taste.
It’s completely possible to do as a hobby if you have time and money, and more possible to GET done if you have lots of money. Honestly I have no idea about it. But my cousin is a car guy and I stayed with him for a few months earlier this year. Damned interesting stuff out there.
Oh look another Rossman PSA to show us how evil some company is. Also, the sun rose today.
I stopped giving this guy credence after his series of videos on how “dangerous” onewheels are (I now own 2, and…GASP also drive a Hyundai with an EPB). I don’t fault his motivation, but his propensity to assert that edge cases are likely mainstream is just far too much to be taken seriously.
Risks exist. Be informed.
Risks exist. Be informed.
He is revealing the risk, he is informing. He is indignant that it is a risk which is deliberately obscured by the manufacturer.
Literally not the point. Companies being predatory, and using literal misinformation, and deception tactics to bend the law and screw up consumers to drive consumption is the point. Good for you being a brainless consumer who is totally fine being cucked by the “rent your hardware” industry, the many of us prefer to actually own our tools.
One wheels aren’t shit for being dangerous, they’re shit for bricking the device if you try to replace the fucking battery, as well as other anti-consumer practices.
Sounds to me like you haven’t had a board ghost into a stranger’s car. It’s fucking terrifying. Ask me how I know.
It’s weird how many negative Hyundai news you get from the US, it’s almost like they are threatening all the established players in the market.
Meanwhile you barely hear about the toyota engine fuck ups or the fact that they being stolen en masse.
Ah good ol’ fake Honda
xxce2AAb@feddit.dk 3 weeks ago
I guess that’s one way to make people give up cars in favor of public transportation.
Dagrothus@reddthat.com 3 weeks ago
You must not be american. It is literally not an option here.
xxce2AAb@feddit.dk 3 weeks ago
Please accept my most sincere condolences.
MagicShel@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
I guess it’s great advice if you live in New York or Disney World. I have a forty minute walk to the nearest bus stop and depending on where I want to go in town and how many transfers it takes, it might take me 2 hours to get somewhere in my mid-side town.
Meanwhile, I can reach anywhere in town in twenty minutes by car, and I can carry $800 of groceries in my trunk. And I don’t freeze my ass off in the snow.
aeternum@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
that’s just sad. I have about 4 bus stops within a 5 minute walk. a bus transfer station 10 mins away, and a train station 15 mins away. I feel bad for americans having to rely on a car :/
x00z@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Why would they be American?
greenbelt@lemy.lol 3 weeks ago
Making them unaffordable for the majority by jacking up car insurance prices, seems like a super efficient strategy.