American Revolution. French Revolution. Iranian Revolution.
Just a few very violent, and successful, revolutions.
YSK: Non-violent protests are 2x likely to succeed and no non-violent movement that has involved more than 3.5% of the country population has ever failed
Submitted 9 months ago by MolecularCactus1324@lemmy.world to youshouldknow@lemmy.world
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
Comments
barneypiccolo@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Hawanja@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Who’s going to fight in your violent revolution? You? We couldn’t even get all the people who voted for Biden to Vote for Kamala. Right now a large portion of African Americans are refusing to join the protest movement against encroaching fascism because Trump is somehow a “white people problem.” How do you think a revolutionary army or even an insurrection of sufficient strength to challenge the United States Government would ever take hold when there is zero solidarity among the left? Pure Fantasy.
hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
I don’t really know if I’d consider the French revolution very succesful, considering the fact that the Bourbon dynasty was restored after only 16 years.
pyre@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I’d argue the French revolution is probably one of the most successful.
cabillaud@lemmy.world 9 months ago
For how long? Irrelevant answer. The French Revolution was about shifting the ruling from nobility to bourgeoise and it’s exactly what happened. Valid to this very day.
ikidd@lemmy.world 9 months ago
General strikes accomplish a fuck of a lot more in a shorter amount of time. When the owners of the administration can’t get their poptarts to the stores to be sold, the bank calls their loans and shit gets real.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
Cool, you organize one of those, then. Ill wait.
barneypiccolo@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Right after Covid ended, the nurses in the NYC hospitals decided that after being so heroic for over a year, they deserved raises, and some other benefits. The hospitals flat-out refused anything.
The nurses went on strike. Within 72 hours, every single one of their demands was met, including a fat raise.
Unions and strikes work.
Initiateofthevoid@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
Yeah, too many people keep acting like “hold up a sign” and “start shooting” are the only two political actions possible. There is a vast array of disruptions and threats to the status quo that do not require violence.
Jimmycakes@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Who wrote this article? Fairy tale bullshit??
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 9 months ago
look at this fed (and my answer): lemmy.world/post/31384291/17679569
Could it be they are scared of actual change and started a social media campaign? Coincidentally also the same message from Bernie the sheepdog. x.com/BernieSanders/status/1932148252800905415
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 months ago
BBC tier neoliberalism.
“Real victory is when you stop trying to resist” might as well be the Keir Starmer campaign slogan
Octagon9561@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
This is complete utter propaganda, especially considering it’s coming from the BBC. History has shown us time and time again that the ruling class never gives up its power peacefully.
hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
my fucking ass 👅🥾
Bolsheviks, Stonewall riots, suffragettes, all famously peaceful movements that got their rights by staying on their knees and asking nicely.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Those are successful, yes. But then you have Arbenz’s Guatamala and the FARC in Columbia and the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka and democratic revolts in Hong Kong and Kashmir and the French Revolution and the Polish Resistance and the failures of socialist revolts across Africa and the Middle East.
I think part of the problem is how we define “successful”. Because it’s easy to see how the Spanish Anarchists failed to defeat Franco. Meanwhile, we largely consider the Civil Rights Era in the United States a success, despite many of its leaders being assassinated and its efforts quashed and undo under the Nixon/Reagan Era.
Militant insurgencies end when they are crushed by police/military. Peaceful protests don’t “fail” nearly so dramatically, they just fade away.
FeatherConstrictor@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Psst, just a friendly reminder: it’s Colombia with two O’s and no U :) just a little pet peeve of mine.
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 9 months ago
democratic revolts in Hong Kong LOL you mean the CIA paid failed attempt at destabilisation?
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
Y’all are out in full force today, huh
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Countering the astroturfed “take it up the ass and do nothing campaign”? Why would anyone do that?
hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
well where the hell could I go
fdnomad@programming.dev 9 months ago
I honestly cant recall seeing any peaceful protest accomplishing anything of significance in my lifetime. Most successful protests I hear about are the French lighting up Paris when they try to raise the retirement age. They just try again 2 years later though.
merc@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Keep Goodhart’s law in mind:
“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure”
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Thanks Bernie the sheepdog.
Make sure the sheep don’t make waves.
And don’t forget to say pissrahell has aright to defend itselfResonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
Let me know what all the peaceful protests on climate change did leading up to and since the Paris Agreement.
Civil disobedience, including violent action, absolutely has a place in changing the policy of the state.
Trollception@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Sure, a poor uneducated place.
y0kai@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
Lmao I love that people still reply to you when you’re name is trollception.
Well done.
justastranger@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Anyone who makes peaceful revolution impossible makes violent revolution inevitable.
Slowter1134@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Ah, so you agree there IS a place though.
StonerCowboy@lemm.ee 9 months ago
List all the regimes that weren’t brought down by peaceful protests and singing kumbaya. No worries we will wait.
perestroika@lemm.ee 9 months ago
There’s a book on the subject written by Srdja Popovic.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueprint_for_Revolution
Summary: protests that start (and try to remain) non-violent have a greater chance to succeed, because they can attract more people to their cause.
Critique: with some regimes, it’s not possible to non-violently protest. For non-violent protest to work, the environment must respect a minimum amount of human rights.
Case samples:
- US in the sixties: yes
- USSR under Gorbachev: yes
- Serbia under Milosevic: yes (Popovic was there doing it)
- Israel under Netanyahu: probably yes
- China under Xi: practically no (not for long)
- Iran under Khamenei: only if you’re doing a bread riot
- Russia under Putin: no, don’t even hold a blank sheet of paper
- Saudi Arabia: no
…etc. In some places, you can’t organize. Then your only option is to fight. As long as you can publicly organize, definitely do so - it’s vastly preferable. :)
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 months ago
US during the civil rights movement era: yes
I gotta ask, how the hell was the US in the 1960s a safe place to nonviolently protest? Police violence aimed at colored protesters during that era was notorious. Plus the church bombings, the lynchings, the assassinations…
indepndnt@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I don’t think anyone said that nonviolent protest was safe…
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
US during the civil rights movement era: yes USSR under Gorbachev: yes Serbia under Milosevic: yes, with difficulty on every step (Popovic was there doing it)
Imaginary history.
Israel under Netanyahu: probably yes
They murdered hundreds of palestinians during peaceful protests. GTFO with this BS.
perestroika@lemm.ee 9 months ago
How many times can you list russia/ussr? Give me a break with this lib imperialism.
I may list it as many times as I need. I was born there and grew up there. As an archist, give me a break with this commie imperialism.
this@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Your point is so important that I don’t think it can be stressed enough.
Nonviolent protests are more popular in public opinion. Public opinion gets you more people on your side. More people on your side is more power, and when the regime starts cracking down on peaceful protests, it will be easier to get more people to fight than it would be of we advocate for violence from the start.
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Not sure you should include Gorbachev since he illegally dissolved the USSR against the will of the people.
SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 9 months ago
dissolved the USSR against the will of the
peopleRussians- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Armenian_independence_ref…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Azerbaijani_independence_…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Estonian_independence_ref…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Georgian_independence_ref…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Latvian_independence_and_…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Lithuanian_independence_r…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Turkmen_independence_refe…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/1991_Ukrainian_independence_re…
- en.wikipedia.org/…/Declaration_of_State_Sovereign…
Seems to be just about everybody wanted to leave the USSR.
SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 9 months ago
Yes, the USSR, famous for respecting the will of the people …
RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Israel under Netanyahu: probably yes
When Palestinians protest peacefully they get shot at.
perestroika@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Thanks for correcting. You’re right, I should have written something else about Israel under Netanyahu. :(
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Srdja Popovic
LOL
inthesetimes.com/…/wikileaks-docs-expose-famed-se…Telling you have the name perestroika, by the hated traitor Gorbachev putting them in misery while corrupt oligarchs from the west leeched on Russia.
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 9 months ago
LOL complete BS
SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 9 months ago
Tankies are going to hate this comment.
perestroika@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Tankies are going to hate this comment.
They already are. :) I didn’t quite expect this effect, but I welcome it. :)
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 months ago
It’s crazy to talk about the US Civil Rights movement as peaceful, given the police / domestic terrorist bloodbath it resulted in.
How many civil rights leaders need to be shot to death before a movement isn’t peaceful anymore?
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
While this is obviously not true. It is hilarious seeing that some comments call bullshit on this while thinking that violent protests have any better chance to succeed.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
I believe that a non-significant number of them are pushing an agenda.
psychadlligoat@piefed.social 9 months ago
lol of course this garbage bootlicker propaganda is left up on .world, a classic example of their quality modding skills
glad to see the comments calling it out for what it is
arin@lemmy.world 9 months ago
All i know is what happened in Germany
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 9 months ago
Yeah. 3.5% would be about 2.8m people. This number has been exceeded easily last year when the AfD scandal happened. Absolutely fucking nothing happened.
axh@lemmy.world 9 months ago
no non-violent movement that has involved more than 3.5% of a population has ever failed
US police: hold my riot gear!
gabbath@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Didn’t BLM 2020 protests have over 3.5%? I don’t think they accomplished much except put pressure to prosecute Chauvin. Like literally just that one guy.
percent@infosec.pub 9 months ago
Weren’t those violent though? Or maybe I’m thinking of something else. The COVID era memories kinda blur together in my brain. I definitely remember a lot of destruction around that time though
gabbath@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Mostly peaceful, really, same as these. But obviously when you have literally millions of people protesting, there’s bound to be some not-quite-ok stuff happening in all the chaos. Property damage, stealing, that sort of thing.
There’s really no way to have zero violence at this scale, although I’d say there’s a distinction between property damage and violence (one is done to objects and the other to people).
Don’t forget we remember MLK protests as mostly peaceful too, but the media did not portray them that way back then either. The copaganda is ever present.
cecinestpasunbot@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
Not really. The overwhelming majority of those protests were peaceful. However the media latched on to the few cases where riots broke out which is pretty much what they always do.
Mesa@programming.dev 9 months ago
I wanted to make an ironic, exaggerated comment here, but irony doesn’t really work when it is 100% in line with what these people would actually say.
Change is so slow because this country has managed to form and propogate such a thoroughly oppressive system, that to call it out is to only reinforce what the people have been taught since day one.
These “freedom people” want their privilege so bad that they are willing to keep a monarch/oligarch in office who will perpetuate an oppressive system under the guise of ignorance.
destructdisc@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Take your liberal propaganda and stuff it
Ougie@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Well that’s total bs, in Greece there’s been dozens of non-violent protests far exceeding 3.5% that have failed spectacularly.
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 9 months ago
Clue: peaceful protests in the entire western world achieved nothing for the past half a century. You had the massive Greece protests, the Gilets Jeunes in France, the 15-M in Spain, the Occupy Movement in the US, the BLM protests in the US too, the anti Iraq war protests all over Europe… None of them achieved anything meaningful. The EU and US are NOT democratic.
Pringles@sopuli.xyz 9 months ago
The cries for violence here are quite disgusting. I understand our American friends are frustrated, but violence is only going to get you killed. The police in the US have been receiving military gear for decades now. If you want violence, you will get it.
Then there are some major misconceptions about the 3.5% rule. That is for persistent non-violent protests. Week in, week out, for months at a time, before this yields results. Violent protests drive away many of the people you need on board to achieve genuine change and make it exponentially harder to get to your 3.5%. Try getting a grandma or a family with kids to join when molotov cocktails are being thrown around.
So for everyone here calling for violence, you are idiots and you won’t achieve a damn thing.
psychadlligoat@piefed.social 9 months ago
you're the bigger idiot if you think non-violence works against fascists, and you'll achieve even less (unless you count the deaths of innocents that are on your hands, coward)
Squirrelanna@lemmynsfw.com 9 months ago
Just existing is getting a lot of us killed. It ain’t even just the poor anymore, we’ve got real assassinations happening.
Godric@lemmy.world 9 months ago
One thing I love about the protests is seeing the little children and grandmothers marching side by side with my extraordinarily angry ass. Yeah I have to moderate my language a little, but I feel much less alone seeing a multi-generational sea of people standing with me.
D_C@lemm.ee 9 months ago
There’s two basic options for change here. Defiance, and violence.
The defiance would have to be so ongoing it could not be ignored by drumpf and his cronies.
And the violence will have to be so well planned and extreme (eg: wholescale assassinations) it would make the nazi republican politicians actually fear for their lives as they don’t give a shit about anything else.That’s the only two real options for change. Long and ongoing defiance, or quick short controlled violence.
However this is all moot as I am convinced neither will happen.
The us people haven’t the will to do the ‘necessary’ violence, and will only do a protest here and there until they’ve accepted this is their new normal and go back to their existence.prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
And the violence will have to be so well planned and extreme (eg: wholescale assassinations) it would make the nazi republican politicians actually fear for their lives as they don’t give a shit about anything else.
I’m curious as to what you think comes after this?
hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 months ago
Also I’d say that peaceful and violent aren’t binary. Like, there’s standing somewhere holding signs without being distruptive, then there’s civil disobedience like blocking traffic without being actually violent, then there’s protests where protestors will use violence to defend themselves if they have to without actively seeking to engage in violent acts, and then there’s straight up rioting, where people go out their way to attack people, or smash windows or burn cars and shit.
And, of course, it varies from person to person. If there’s protest X happening, one person could think of is as violent (or call it violent as a way of propaganda) while one person wouldn’t.
ofchesoneofthose@lemmings.world 9 months ago
Nothing is what you achieved for the last 100 years lmao
Squizzy@lemmy.world 9 months ago
I dont support it but I understand it. All the achievements of the baddies at the moment is being carried out aggressively if not violently.
Its hard to see that and just march.
10001110101@lemm.ee 9 months ago
Liberal three-percenter lore?
I mean, I do think non-violent disobedience can be effective, but the state usually makes it violent. State sanctioned protests where most obey most of the rules isn’t disobedience. Is a good start though, and I hope things progress (in a good way).
vivendi@programming.dev 9 months ago
Bourgeoisie propaganda
TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.zip 9 months ago
Quoting System of a Down: “Why don’t you ask the kids at Tiananmen Square…”
throwawayacc0430@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
Tbf they didn’t reach 3.5%, did they?
1989 population was 1 billion and they only managed to have 1 million protestors which is like 0.1%
TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.zip 9 months ago
Of you crush every 0.1% that shows up you will never reach 3.5%, or the alternative is to not protest until you have the numbers
AntiBullyRanger@ani.social 9 months ago
STOP SPREADING THIS FUCKING LIE.
KING JUNIOR WAS DISLIKED DURING HIS NONVIOLENCE PROTEST.
IT IS PRECISELY VIOLENCE THAT THE STATE ENACTS THAT LEAD TO TRUMP’S REELECTION.
IF YOU WANT CHANGE, BE MORE UNGOVERNABLE THAN MAGA.
sqgl@sh.itjust.works 9 months ago
600k protested against the Iraq war in Australia in 2003.
The population was about 20m so 3.5% of that is 700k. So if another 100k had joined then the protest would have succeeded?
Womble@lemmy.world 9 months ago
No, if another 100k Australians had come out and then kept protesting day in day out for months they would have got the aus government to back down and not support the war.
ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
100k Australians are the cause of the Iraq War 😔
the_q@lemmy.zip 9 months ago
Still waiting on you “violence is the only way” crowd to do some violence.
brandon@piefed.social 9 months ago
I heard a saying once (I cannot remember the provenance) that could be paraphrased like: "The liberal is someone who is for all movements except the current movement; against all wars except the current war."
There are two important points:
- Every major movement in history has incorporated elements of violence;
- Which movements we retroactively consider as violent is determined by sociological consensus.
For example, the American civil rights movement is today considered by people to have been largely non-violent. However at the time the movement's opponents definitely thought of, and portrayed it as a violent enterprise.
Opponents of a movement will always portray that movement as violent. The status-quo consensus perspective on historical protests is written by the victors. Therefore, the hypothesis that "non-violent" protests are more likely to succeed than "violent" ones is self-fulfilling. When protest movements succeed we are less likely to consider them "violent".
MetalMachine@feddit.nl 9 months ago
This sounds like propaganda
SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org 9 months ago
Non violent protests only work when there’s a threat of violence backing it.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 9 months ago
How in the world did you derive those numbers? How do you even quantify that in practice?
Also, of course British State Media is going to discourage violent protests.
MangioneDontMiss@lemmy.ca 9 months ago
boot licker post
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 months ago
Phony liberal bullshit for controlling the masses.