This reddit post likely has tens if not hundreds of thousands of views, look at the top comment.
Lemmy is losing so many potential new users because the UX sucks for the vast majority of people.
What can we do?
Submitted 1 year ago by AnonomousWolf@lemm.ee to fediverse@lemmy.world
https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/133162df-4437-43a9-8099-98727eec11ab.jpeg
This reddit post likely has tens if not hundreds of thousands of views, look at the top comment.
Lemmy is losing so many potential new users because the UX sucks for the vast majority of people.
What can we do?
I feel like probably the biggest UX improvement Lemmy, and the fediverse more widely, could do is to make user migration more seamless. I’m thinking federated SSO, basically, where once you have an account anywhere on the fediverse you should a) be able to use that account anywhere else in the fediverse and b) move where that account is hoested to anywhere else in the fediverse.
I believe this is related to whatever the hell ActivityPod is doing? Feel free to correct me on that. Regardless, get something like this in place as well as better instance and services discovery (and maybe the ability to find your other connected services from you ‘account’ pages on whatever service you’re on) and I think people might start to think of fediverse as less ‘an alternative’ and more ‘the better one’.
Basically, we need standard protocols for user data management, transfer, credentials management, and service and instance discovery. I’m sure some of that exists, the important thing will be to streamline and standardise the actual UX.
Choosing a server is the bridge too far to cross?
That’s fine, keep the reddit people on reddit.
That’s a pretty funny thing to say when talking about a platform explicitly designed to fill the same niche as reddit.
The call is coming from inside the house!
The self-selection of Lemmy vs Reddit users is an inherently stratifying medium. Lemmy is also distinctly left-leaning in a way that Reddit is not.
Having experienced several waves of Reddit absorbing Facebook exoduses, and the subsequent worsening of experience, I can only infer the same pattern will exist in Reddit slop migrating to Lemmy.
If anything, I’d prefer that entire crowd return to Facebook to bloviate their opinions and Boomerisms ad naseum.
we can redesign the on onboarding process.
🛑 stop explaining new terms 🛑 fuck infinite list of random names with anime girls (what do you want me to do,read!?)
Make it like a map and turn instances into buildings (or gardens/circle/doesnt matter). Show some stats like how big, who i can talk to, topic. Gamify the experience so the fatigue turns into curiousity.
I do like the idea of a map.
We have colonized the Internet it’s probably about time we start making a map for those that follow.
That’s a cool idea
Imagine sending your friend a minigame and you accidentally sign him up for lemmy
Reddit being popular is keeping the majority of people away from Lemmy.
When you get right down to it: people don’t care that Reddit is selling their information, that the site itself is a piece of garbage, that running the site requires a bunch of no-life weirdos whose numbers will only increase going forward and whose power will likewise, or that the design actively encourages bots to the point of disincentivizing actual human beings from using it.
They want their memes, they want their news, they want their niche little interest subs and they want their porn. The simple fact is that lemmy is a smaller version of Reddit with fewer options and to the majority of people who don’t care about their data or the objectively dogshit running of the site, there is no reason to cross over to Lemmy.
Until Reddit takes a Musk-type turn into being totally unuseable, lemmy will only see a trickle of users who are burned by Reddit.
I use Stealth with the express intent of not contributing to Reddit (there are no ads on Stealth) while consuming their server’s resources. It’s a sort of protest in its own way. Especially since those niche interest subs are the only way I could quickly get information about the community without having to scroll through discord servers— hell, in Lemmy-Kbin most of them are run by bots reposting from Reddit, and there is no way I can manage or advertise my own magazine, what with my busy schedule in my university.
You could also use revanced and patch the reddit apk on android.
No adds etc.
I’m fine with that while it lasts. Having millions of active users would increase the feed, but it’s not going to increase the likelihood of me talking to anyone smart
Agreed. Also if we’re being honest servers would probably start crashing left right and center if ten million redditors decided to join next week. The software still needs time to mature, so slow and steady growth is actually perfect for right now.
I’m all on board except for the comment about micro-penises. No one should ever resort to body-shaming.
Endless wars about federations. Ha, so true. Along with switching to Linux and Privacy.
Are there endless wars? A lot of people don’t like .ml, lemmygrad, and hexbear and they’re defederated by a lot of instances, but that’s not really a hot war. Outside of that most drama seems to be about certain mod/admin decisions. But that kind of feedback loop is by design. People are supposed to have opinions on whether they think instances are well run and aligns with what they’re looking for…and if it doesn’t align, that would be a good reason to switch instances. I see more fretting over how to make Lemmy more popular than arguments about instances.
I think Lemmy needs a higher-level sign-up procedure that hides the complexity of the fediverse. This could be a webpage with a simple, clutter-free interface that handles picking and registering on an instance from a curated list semi-automatically, for example, by asking you 3-4 questions before giving you a suggested server that fits your responses (that you can change) with a button to register right away (and handle the occasional additional sign-up requirements that some instances have).
IMHO, 90% of users will never interact with the “federation” aspects of Lemmy after that, and they also don’t need to. I personally don’t feel like Lemmy being federated has much of an impact on my user experience day to day.
Multi-reddits on Lemmy!
New users get overwhelmed with decision fatigue, especially when they have average intelligence.
When selecting a federation, new users should be told:
“Because Lemmy isn’t run by a large corporation, lots of small volunteers run Lemmy and run different copies of Lemmy at the same time. These different copies are called instances. You can choose 1 or just click the large red button and we’ll randomly select one of the most popular instances for you. If you aren’t sure what to choose, just press the button!”
This is basically the solution. Just give a few words to explain that different servers can have some rules differences and offer the easy join button.
Get people onboarded fast and easy! If they want to, they can learn more afterwards.
Sorry, that’s more than one sentence.
person you’re saying that to: “So much words, very explaining!” runs away
“…especially when they have average intelligence.”
People with average experience struggle with the new paradigm. Nothing to do with intelligence and that kind of elitism is the reason I first bailed on lemmy.ml. I would have thought that someone with average intelligence would recognise how many of the worlds problems today stem from people punching down.
The idea that intelligence has no impact on computer skills and the ability to quickly learn computer skills is magical thinking. Intelligence differences are real and the solution is to make easy explanation to help people learn. I am not among the most intelligent people on Lemmy, the intelligence of the average Lemmy person probably at least an IQ above 115. It’s not about elitism, it’s about accessibility. I have terrible coordination. If someone tries to teach me advanced tennis, it would be bad, but if someone recognizes my coordination limits and is like, the goal is to just hit the ball once, then perhaps I have fun with tennis.
Could have auto versus manual server choice. Can always maintain option for granular selection, but “normies” could walk into a quiz when migrating?
Top three things you used Reddit for? (List of maybe 10+ things, servers can maintain their feature list to empower this)
Do you like A) talking to everybody about days topics B) talking to a smaller group of like minded people
Do you like A) a MORE moderated space B) a LESS moderated space, realizing you may see more spam and controversy
And then calculates a server that meets needs, if multiple, then random number generator to assign a server. On user side, all they see is a quiz followed by a typical registration screen. This would help with distribution of users across niche servers, but feel lighter for user. They also would assume a more curated experience, regardless of where they end up. Servers could have to opt in to be fed users from search of they were afraid of impact on cost to maintain server.
The above likely aren’t the right questions, but this framework could be effective
The problem with that is there is no centralized website you go to for Lemmy. The closest thing to that would be the various apps you use for Lemmy so my question would be where would you put this quiz? I think when people talk about joining a server being hard it’s just hard for people used to a centralized social media to get used to the idea that one social media platform can be made up of a bunch of different websites and it becomes overwhelming to even figure out where to go. They’re very used to just going to reddit’s website so if they can’t just look up Lemmy and click the first link to join it’s gonna be too complex.
Just go to https://discuss.online, easy. :-)
Sure, the app that nailed this might separate itself as the popular option for zeitgeist to grab onto, but then it distributes users to many servers (as the app itself is an aggregator that’s agnostic to server. But yes, rush of that single app becoming “Lemmy” in many people’s minds.
But you likely need to treat migration and understanding nuance of the tech as two different user journeys. Rather than solving problem though, likely better to stop and ask why we even want more users (if we even do?).
The lemmy servers could also provide how much headroom they have for extra users and the selection wouldn be weighed based on that so that smaller servers wont be overloaded and larger servers get enough users. They could implement some of this into the reddit api itself.
Good point
Somebody will have to host that. Whether it’s a Lemmy app developer, or baked into the Lemmy codebase itself.
Baked in would be nicer. It would kind of cool for any landing page just kind of working to get you into the threadiverse. If I keep going to nomoreuserlemmy.org (or whatever fake one you want) it just redirects on the backend for me when I log in to an instance that actually works for me.
I think a big problem is a lot of the explainers for new users, at least the ones that were around back when I first joined Mastodon, were or are absolute dog shit. They were all existential explanations rather than practical ones. I was trying to figure out which instance to join, and why one might be better for me than another, and every explainer I saw was basically a variation on, “iT’s JuSt LikE EmAiL. wHy Is tHaT hArD? sToP bEiNg So sTuPid, DuMmY.” None of them really explained the user experience, and how different instances might affect it, let alone the existence of the local and global feeds and how your instance choice affects those. It was like asking someone how to use chopsticks and them telling you, “It’s easy. Just put food in your mouth with them. Works just like a fork.”
Technically true, but it omits some pretty crucial information.
Once you’re into it and have the lay of the land, it seems really simple in retrospect. But if you’re coming in cold with no idea how any of it works, and the only help you get is some dickhead shouting, “EmAiL! iT’s LiKe EmAiL!” then the learning curve seems a lot steeper than it actually is.
None of them really explained the user experience, and how different instances might affect it, let alone the existence of the local and global feeds and how your instance choice affects those
I almost never use the local feeds. Technically my instance choice does affect them, but I could switch to any other random Lemmy instance and the experience would be 99.99% the same for me.
To me it’s not forks vs. chopsticks, it’s someone looking at a fork with 3 tines instead of 4 and getting paralyzed not being able to decide between the two.
What’s a good way to explain it then?
👏👏👏 Very well said!
What can we do?
More flaming about tankies and .ml that will help.
ABSTRACT AWAY THE FEDERATION!
I don’t think these people actually want to leave reddit. They are only interested in farming karma by complaining about it,
This is a good point. And also reddit is astroturfing hardcore, it’s likely that many comments are coming from botted accounts and especially upvotes are heavily manipulated.
I’m not disagreeing with the fact that a lot of people genuinely struggle to get started on Lemmy. But just pointing out that perception is actively amplified on reddit, because they obviously want to discourage people from joining Lemmy.
It’s not a conspiracy at all, I’ve seen countless positive comments and posts about Lemmy removed over the past year or so. They know about us and they are worried.
“Wah wah it’s so hard to pick a server!”
JUST LIKE EMAIL YOU NITWIT!
JUST LIKE EMAIL YOU NITWIT!
We have very different perceptions of how people approach emails.
Guess how tech illiterates(?) approach email? They sign up on Gmail - perhaps with some handholding - and that’s it. That’s all they know or care about.
And before you say they don’t deserve to be on the internet: they are all using Facebook, Youtube, Whatsapp, etc. Unless platforms like Lemmy actually treat new users better, there’s not much incentive for people to switch.
They sign up on AOL or Yahoo Mail or Gmail. Or get an email address through their ISP.
“Here’s your address.” They use it.
The problem is, and was for me too - that’s not how people think of email. Saying “pick a server” is really arcane for most people, even “pick a domain.” The fediverse as a whole has a terminology and jargon problem it still hasn’t completely reckoned with, or at least figured out.
Have tell new users just sign up on your instance. Make it less confusing by sending them to a specific website and not just telling them about the software.
I swear to God, there are so many tech people here that overthink it because they know details that the average user would not give a single fuck about.
I like my instantce
This exactly. Once I dove in and stopped reading, it oddly made more sense to me.
Create username and password Sign into preferred app from your favorite store.
I liked old reddit, and Baconreader, so for me Jerboa was great
Jerboa is awesome, and it’s come a very long way in a really short timespan.
Yea getting into Lemmy is confusing. I only use sync because it’s easier, I have no idea how to even access it on desktop. It definitely needs some QoL improvements before I can really start recommending it to people
There is a reason such a large Parr of Lemmy is developers. There’s no confusion signing up for the developers. Federations and servers and instances are all crazy jargon to regular people. Although we may not want all regular types here, having some more regular people to balance out all the high IQ techies could make things more fun.
Tbf I think it takes just a little web litteracy to understand the fediverse. I know I’m a developper, so I tried explaining it to my bro and he got it on the first try.
To access it on desktop, just open the browser and type your server’s URL (in your case, lemmy.world)
I guess we have to roll back from “apps for everything”, or else many people might genuinely not know how to access their instance.
There are people who don’t realize that reddit is a website. Stew on that for a minute.
Good, Lemmy doesn’t need morons like these
Lemmy desperately needs to get rid of toxicity of this kind.
It has become a more hostile place, and this negatively affects the experience for everyone, including the OGs.
And yes, if you want to have more lively conversations, you need more people. If you need more people, you should stop calling them morons and help them figure it out in baby steps. Don’t make it harder than it already is.
I don’t want to have conversations with children.
but it feels like old reddit
Yes, and that’s a good thing.
There are lots of Lemmy apps that display posts in different ways. If you want “bells and whistles”, then find an app that gives you that.
That’s a big reason I liked Lemmy.
makes me think of people who say they don’t like tofu. (tofu is a protein sponge that tastes like whatever you soak/cook it in)
Oh I love tofu. Fried, with a bit of teriyaki sauce. Yummy.
I personally love Alexandrite.app as a UX. I’m so used to it that I get confused when I follow a link and see a default Lemmy instance, lol.
Gonna don my tinfoil hat here for a second…
Was the monetization of the API a deliberate move to kick out the progressive and tech-literate long-time reddit users (myself included, with 16 year badge and centuryclub), to in turn make the site more of a Nazi, pro-Trump circle jerk?
Because I really think it succeeded. The whole atmosphere shifted that day, and I’ve barely been back except when I end up there out of muscle memory or a Google result…and those often have the best answers removed by someone who went through and scrubbed their account.
We all remember how Spez treated r/thedonald, right?
I have a post early on Lemmy, around the migration, about how it felt like any morality and responsibility to objective fact over there left with our initially migrating group. The change is subtle, but it’s crazy how far you have to scroll into the comments now to find the buried correct answer that refutes the misinformation in the title or linked article.
Also, the “which movie is this for you?” Type posts have just saturated over there. As well as shit, obscure linked sources (e g. “Indiatrump.biz” “realzgovtruth.info” kind of shit), as sources of front page upvoted posts, seem so much more prevalent over there now.
Regardless if it was the plan, it’s the result.
I can’t stand what it has become, especially when some of the most problematic subs have massive influence over the rest of the site, like wsb.
I just wish you had recourse for false (or maybe even correct, but heavy handed) bans, and it’s still the largest gathering place for many communities - retro games, queer communities, other adult interest (not just pornography) spaces, local events/happenings, so it’s really terrible to just be completely shut out of all of that. Whether voluntarily or not. (In my case not.)
Tell them to download the thunder app (it’s very similar to many of the popular reddit apps) and just give them a list of the 10 most popular fediverse’s to pick from to make an account.
I mentioned this like a year ago. Users will need their hands held to get them to easily come over.
The fediverse being “endless wars about who is federated” is not really true, is it?
Sure not everyone is federated with everyone else, but legacy social media is federated with nobody at all. Federation is the entire point of the Fediverse, you connect with people you want to connect with and you don’t connect with people you don’t. It’s as simple as that.
Plus, do people really want to be on a single platform with everyone else in the world? Because that’s a big part of what broke the internet in the first place…
99% of users are going to check out when you ask them what server to join.
I’m so sick of this dumb ass argument…
People who complain about “servers” need to tell me what they think “the internet” is. The existence of servers didn’t stop online video games, email or discord/slack from catching on with hundreds of millions of people, so why is it suddenly a problem when it comes to the Fediverse?
Onboarding obviously needs to be better, but I’m going to be totally honest honest here: I don’t think these are legitimate, actionable or useful critiques.
These are merely excuses from people who are addicted to legacy social media and who don’t give a shit that the internet is owned and controlled by a few rich corporations.
I’m so sick of this dumb ass argument…
The server question was 100% the reason I didn’t join Lemmy right away. It’s not that I didn’t understand what a server is. It’s that the signup form was asking me to make a decision I didn’t know the answer to, so I gave up.
With a little more hand holding, I’d have joined months before I actually did.
Well, that’s fair enough, I guess.
I think the difference between servers and what it means to be on one server vs another is not exactly obvious. On the other hand, if picking a Mastodon or Lemmy server gives a person choice paralysis, I don’t know how they can pick anything in life without getting choice paralysis.
Like, how do you know which bread to buy? I guess you just arbitrarily pick one and if you like it then just stick with it, and if you don’t then you try something else.
But listen, I’m no stranger to overthinking things, so I guess I do get it, even if it is a bit frustrating as someone who wants people to take the internet back from corporations and oligarchs. Sorry for being a bit overly dismissive. I think it’s just that I’m a bit of an old school guy, and so I mostly just hate the idea that the entire internet needs to be centralized around one website/app/platform and that any small degree of choice or distribution is a bad thing.
TBH, if you can’t handle picking a server, please just stay away.
Using Boost for Lemmy and it’s almost like I never switched.
Wait wait wait… This implies people like new reddit… That shit makes my eyes bleed wtf
Hot take - I don’t blame them. The who’s federated with who and who can see what, and how it works is confusing as absolute fuck and extremely poorly explained.
I was on Sync for Reddit before going here, and checked out Lemmy as the devs switched platform. So the joke’s on them, my UX is basically identical.
That said, sucks that people shy away because of complexity.
The comments here are smug as fuck.
moakley@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I tried to join Lemmy during the API debacle, but then it asked me to choose a server. It didn’t explain what that meant or how it would affect me. I could read a long, confusing explanation of it elsewhere, but that illuminated nothing. So I gave up.
Eventually I tried again and just chose lemmy.world, since it was the largest. After that it was smooth sailing, and I like Lemmy a lot more than reddit. It turns out it didn’t even really matter which server I chose. (Although now I see some comments from people saying there’s something wrong with lemmy.world.)
You just need to hold the new user’s hand a little. Anyone who has ever designed a UI for an office environment would know immediately that the server question is going to be an impenetrable wall for many users.
Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
moakley@lemmy.world 1 year ago
None of that affects me, but if I switch, which one should I switch to?