Submitted 4 months ago by sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip to showerthoughts@lemmy.world
You could probably make a poptarts are sandwiches alignment style thing out of this.
Basically, any video game with an explicit goal, or set of goals is just a puzzle game with extra steps.
What buttons do you push, when do you push them, what does this accomplish, how does that lead you to your end goal, etc.
You could even argue that multiplayer tactics constitute a puzzle, a more social puzzle.
Yes, this is reductive, but this is a dumb showerthoughts post.
Following this logic whole human life is a puzzle game.
Beauracracy is one big puzzle of locks and keys where applications are keys and passports are keys to border control locks etc.
That’s not wrong.
It’s not reductive, it’s misrepresentative. A puzzle game is only a puzzle game as long as coming up with the solution is the main task. There are more than enough games where coming up with the right solution is not difficult, but performing it is.
Also the name puzzle game implies that there are designed puzzles. Any game where you have to make decisions in generated situations aren’t puzzle games. For example if you take a specific chess situation and ask which move would lead to check mate in x moves then that’s a chess puzzle. That doesn’t make the game of chess itself a puzzle.
By your definition, Tetris is not a puzzle game.
Its generated and execution difficulty is a major factor.
According to his interpretation of the genre it would be an action-strategy game which arguably fits tetris better. Your underlying point implies that all strategy games are puzzle games which this guy doesn’t agree with I think.
Speaking of chess, you might be able to argue that some old RTS games are puzzle games when playing campaign, such as the first Command & Conquer. You often have very limited resources, the AI will do specific things at specific times or with specific triggers, and you’re often given specific constraints, like a time limit or keeping a specific thing alive. In this case, though, it’s mostly because the AI is so primitive that almost every action is scripted in advance for that specific map.
I mean, technically, I guess (insert Futurama technical correct meme), but with that defintion everything is a puzzle.
I just breathed in, what do I do next? I can’t inhale more air. I have to think fast! Maybe if I breath out, I can then breath in again… It worked! Amazing!
A very simple puzzle which our brains and bodies usually perform automatically, yet there are quite a number of situations and conditions that make breathing significantly more difficult, or where precise breathing or certain ways of breathing are skills that require mastery.
Swimming, diving, circular breathing for wind instruments, controlling your breathing while shooting, trying to calm yourself down from a panic attack, etc etc.
Okay, but pop-tarts are raviolis, not sandwiches. That doesn’t even make sense. What kind of sandwich is enclosed on all sides?
Pop-tarts are dumplings for sure. They’re cooked dough wrapped around a filling.
A pop-tart
Listen here you little turd
A calzone
A Snackmaster sandwich.
Ok, so games that revolve around superhuman perfect timing are kinda pushing the idea of being a puzzle game. What about gambling games, where it’s all about the RNG instead? All you do is pull the lever and hope for the best.
What game involves super human perfect timing that does not include some other kind of puzzle to be solved?
Fighting games? Micro Heavy RTS or MOBAs? Bullet Hell Shooters?
All of these have strategy and can thus be reduced to puzzles.
I suppose if a game was purely just, click button as fast as you can after something happens, then ok, you got me, but add even one more element, and technically this is an extremely simple puzzle, albeit brutally unforgiving.
Is there something different you have in mind?
I would say you also have got me on a pure RNG slot game. Theres no gameplay, theres no puzzle, theres no strategy.
At least, within the game itself. If youre going to somehow exploit or hack or something, arguably thats now a real world puzzle of how to do it and not go to jail, but excepting that… yeah, there are lots of online ‘games’ with literally no puzzle element, just do thing and then random output happens.
I would argue those are not really games though.
I would argue those are not really games though.
You were doing well until the No Real Scotsman fallacy.
I think your definition of puzzle games is pretty flawed, to be honest. A puzzle does not provide additional difficulty once you’ve identified how the pieces go together, consequently a game should behave similarly to qualify as a puzzle game. The dichotomy is between conceptualisation versus execution.
Puzzle games can be solved or “won” by identifying the solution. Not-puzzle games require execution.
Guitar Hero and OSU! are not puzzle games. Games like RTSes and MOBAs can be argued to have puzzle elements in terms of strategy and meta, but knowing the optimal thing to do will still not give you victory which imo disqualifies them as outright puzzle games.
What’s the name of that mobile game where you tap to shoot an arrow at the exact perfect time so that it lands on the right spot on a spinning circle? Well, that’s the game where I fail to see any strategy. It’s all about perfect timing and tolerating the anger boiling inside your head.
Oh, and there’s this other almost equally infuriating mobile game that I haven’t yet deleted for some strange reason. It’s called Stack, and your goal is to build the tallest stack possible by having supernatural timing abilities in your fingers. Oh, and what about Flappy Bird or the dinosaur game built into Google Chrome? Basically the same idea, but you don’t have a lot of time to prepare for what’s coming. You just need to have lightning fast reaction time and perfect timing. Now that I think of it, there are lots of games where timing takes the center stage.
Any first-person-shooter is technically a point and click game.
If you define puzzle as a problem that you must work out with some mental effort, then no; not at all games are puzzles. Rail shooters and other mindless games that rely more on reaction speed would not constitute a puzzle since you don’t really need to even think.
I like this answer too!
Doesn’t that just apply to life in general?
Yep, going through the first part of the ff7 remake and the combat is a puzzle. Don’t do it right and get your ass kicked. MMO combat is the same: stack or die/spread or die, memories this dance, etc.
MMOs are probably the most notorious genre at this point for being extremely overproduced puzzle games.
Sure, there are different builds and strats… but its all very formulaic and boring once you find something that works.
Not to mention a huge, huge amount of them are basically just pay to win, to varying degrees, these days.
Also, technically all video games are just really long tech demos.
Yeah, I’ve considered, whether you could boil all games down to three aspects:
But yeah, still really reductive and I’m not sure, this is useful in any way. 🙃
Is Portal a… First Person Shooter with Puzzle Gameplay? A First Person Puzzle Game?
Is Elden Ring an extremely difficult Action RPG, or is it really just an easy Action RPG hiding behind an opaque and complex system of weapons and armor and enemy types and stats that becomes simple once a viable solution to the puzzle of stats and weapons becomes apparent after either reading a guide or just brute forcing through tens or hundreds of hours of bad solutions?
(For that matter, what even is an RPG?
Role Playing Game?
If that just means that you play a character, ie role, and it is an immersive and or compelling story and world, ok, thats a loooot of games.
Does it mean you can customize your character’s appearance or weapons or stat-build? Ok tons of non RPGs allow for that.
If it means you have the ability to put yourself into the game, make choices and do things differently in a way that meaningfully changes how the world of the game responds, then a whole lot of ‘RPGs’ are hardly RPGs at all, and a lot of other kinds of games are better RPGs than ‘RPGs’ with entirely linear stories + optional side quests.
By that metric most immersive sims are more RPG than ‘RPGs’, anything with a branching storyline or highly reactive world is as well.)
Flavor?
Basically anything that has to do with:
I’m going to provide a counter-example to disprove. A slot machine is a video game that is not a puzzle since there is no solution.
I agree with “Most video games are puzzle games” though. There are exceptions like Rail Shooter. Button mash only game. Bullet hell games don’t really have a puzzle element since solution is already shown by areas having no bullets in them.
I feel like this statement also hinges on “all video game strategy is a puzzle” people might disagree with.
This reminds me of an exhibiton I once saw called “No Pain, No Game”. The idea being that any sort of game has some failure state, some obstacle to overcome, that’s what makes it a game. So of course I started thinking of counter-examples. Your slot machine idea is a good one, what I eventually came up with is Cookie Clicker. That game is nothing but positive reinforcement. There’s no way to lose progress or mess anything up, any action you take makes you “win more”. Not taking an action also makes you “win more”, just more slowly.
This showerthought is an idea adjacent to that all. Interesting stuff, even though it’s not too deep.
The cookie clicker could still be a puzzle as long as you make it impossible to win without using some power-ups because you’ll die sooner of old age. That’s assuming there is a win condition in it. Other clickers are genuinely not puzzles since they’re infinite and not winnable. Not winnable makes them not solvable so they can’t be a puzzle.
Putting the pieces in a puzzle is an action, sliding blocks is an action, moving in maze is an action, every game is action.
We wouldn’t play a game that wasn’t exciting or interesting to us so they’re all adventures too. If there’s more than one player or a time limit of any kind it’s a race, we by definition are controlling a character and playing its role so everything is an RPG…
Almost all video games are puzzle games because you have to figure out how tf to play them. I had to study for a while before understanding Stellaris.
You managed to understand Stellaris?
I used to understand Stellaris before they added so, so many things to it. It’s practically a different game now than when I first bought it and I have literally none of the DLC lol
I got far enough to figure out that the game takes forever because of the 10 year peace treaty period (which they added for balance) so I have up and went outside.
alkheemist@aussie.zone 4 months ago
Going to submit my probably-not-a-puzzle-game-game: rhythm games. The game tells you exactly what to press and when you’re supposed to press it, it’s just up to you to actually press the buttons. See: DDR, Rhythm Doctor.
Note that there are rhythm games that have more decision making like crypt of the necrodancer (rhythm roguelike)
neo@lemy.lol 4 months ago
Wow, so the “x” on screen means I have to press the “x” on my controler while it’s highlighted!?
Damn, thanks for spoiling that puzzle!
sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 4 months ago
I will grant you that, I agree.
If there is no thought required to determine the difference between a correct and incorrect choice, if its purely just ‘do this’ and the only difficulty is in execution, then yes I would agree this is not a puzzle.
abbadon420@lemm.ee 4 months ago
Also, mobile idle games like clash of clans or simcity. Maybe some tactics like “I’ll build this now so I can do that tomorrow” but that’s not a puzzle, that is just choices.