[deleted]
Why would someone openly say that they oppose human rights?
Submitted 11 months ago by Lafari@lemmy.world to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
Comments
halfapage@lemmy.world 11 months ago
agent_flounder@lemmy.world 11 months ago
That’s basically the right wing worldview in a nutshell. “Might makes right. Hierarchy instead of equality. Fuck you, I’ve got mine.”
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Misunderstanding. For example it’s embarrassing how long I opposed feminism because I only read extreme scare stories about it. Then when I had my first child, who were the only people standing up to say my company should have paternity leave? Feminists.
I have a more conservative brother who is very much against affirmative action. However he sees firsthand the results of blindly promoting people to meet diversity goals without regard to ability. Meanwhile I’ve been at companies who pay attention to both and get much better results.
Or are we going political? Clearly the Palestinian situation is a crime against humanity, but do I oppose human rights by saying that is much more complex and it’s not as simple as Israel just stopping?
bartolomeo@suppo.fi 11 months ago
Or are we going political?
Not a political issue.
do I oppose human rights by saying that is much more complex and it’s not as simple as Israel just stopping?
Yes. This is a cowardly way of siding with the oppressor and (contrary to the question of this post) indirectly saying one is against not only human rights but also international law, in favor of one’s feelings, or to avoid the inconvenience of acknowledging a wrongdoing and not being moved to rectify it. In the least. Not even with words on an online forum.
There is no neutrality when it comes to human rights, you either support them or you are fine with some people not having them, in which case they are not a right.
Is it complicated for Russia to pull out of Ukraine and respect international law? Is it complicated because they have a historical right to that land? Is it complicated because Russia has the right to self defense against NATO encroachment? Do you condemn NATO? You and I personally, dear commenter, are not enemies by any definition of the word, but if the narrative has one excusing war crimes because “it’s complicated” then the narrative is our enemy. Should Hamas face an international court? Absolutely. Should Israel face an international court? Absolutely. Should all violence stop right this second? Absolutely. Our actions (or lack thereof) decide whether we live in a world of law or a world of brutal autocracy.
Soulg@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Yes. This is a cowardly way of siding with the oppressor and (contrary to the question of this post) indirectly saying one is against not only human rights but also international law, in favor of one’s feelings, or to avoid the inconvenience of acknowledging a wrongdoing and not being moved to rectify it. In the least. Not even with words on an online forum.
The reaching here to get an excuse to virtue signal is absolutely absurd
originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 11 months ago
religion goes along way to dehumanizing others, even in the same household
illiterate_coder@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I doubt anyone you are talking to is opposed to all human rights, that sounds very much like a straw man statement. Reasonable people can disagree about whether any particular right should be protected by law.
The reason is simple: any legally-protected right you have stands in direct opposition to some other right that I could have:
- Your right to free speech is necessarily limited by my right to, among other things, freedom from slander/libel, right to a fair trial, right to free and fair elections, right to not be defrauded, etc.
- Your right to bodily autonomy can conflict with my right to health and safety when there is a global pandemic spreading and you refuse vaccination.
- Your property rights are curtailed by rules against environmental harm, discrimination, insider trading, etc.
No right is ever meant to be or can be absolute, and not all good government policy is based on rights. Turning a policy argument into one about human rights is not generally going to win the other person over, it’s akin to calling someone a racist because of their position on affirmative action. There’s no rational discussion that can be had after that point.
frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 11 months ago
Normally, to be honest, it’s because they want to hurt someone. Look at the Conservatives in the UK, who are desperate to repeal human rights legislation so that they can send refugees to Rwanda without right of appeal.
Note that those Conservatives still think that they have human rights. None of them thinks they should be detained arbitrarily or deported, even though they now acknowledge that they, their government and their party have broken the law in various ways. No, they want to strip rights from other people.
originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 11 months ago
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect" - Frank Wilhoit
joel_feila@lemmy.world 11 months ago
This remibds of a police raid during the trump years in Kentucky. “They are hurting the wrong peole” said one woman as a mexican man was departed leaving his wife and kids behind.
Very mask off moment. Just admitting the role of law is harming some people.
TheInsane42@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I guess because they think they are superior and forget that human rights include their own rights.
So yea, the “because they’re stupid” answer sums it up nicely.
OpenStars@kbin.social 11 months ago
There have always been such (it is human nature) - but right now they feel bold enough to speak and act, whereas previously they had been too afraid and embarrassed to do so publicly.
In South Carolina, various KKK-like groups said in advance that they wanted to kill people, wrapped barbed wire around baseball bats (in order to better kill people with), showed up to kill people, then actually killed people, then bragged about having killed people... Oh right, but the other side was not successful in securing a permit for their peaceful protest, so you know, there are "many sides" to every issue I guess.
Misinformation/brainwashing techniques are powerful. Like if you believed that a particular type of human was the root of all evil in this world, then you SHOULD want them dead, under those circumstances... right? You do not bc you know better, not just about that one group but more fundamentally that it is ideas that bring about evil, not people. But the people killing people do not know that, and it is to the advantage of others who seek power, and want to use the army of sheeple to advance their own agenda, for those sheeple to not know that either.
Nemo@slrpnk.net 11 months ago
I had this experience a short while back, and it really shook me. Granted, this was on the Internet, where people are more willing to say wild things or generally go mask-off, but I was downright flabbergasted. I’ll try to summarize the various arguments without inserting my own bias:
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because they view human rights as a social or legal concept, and not inherently more important than other social or legal principles
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because we as humans haven’t historically respected them, and don’t respect them universally even now, so demanding respect for human rights is a form of privilege
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because the idea of human rights requires a belief that humans have special dignity above that of other creatures (this one I found especially irksome, because I found the arguments denigrating to animal rights)
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because various groups advocating for human rights don’t agree on what those rights are, so blanket support for human rights is not something they can do
I’ll try to find the reddit post where this took place if I can. It was… it was something. If I’ve misrepresented any of the arguments above, it was not intentional but only because I find them so alien that I cannot understand them properly.
Nemo@slrpnk.net 11 months ago
Found the reddit link now I’m off work. I tried to reread it but I got to the part where someone asserted that antebellum chattal slaves didn’t have human rights and got too angry / frustrated / disgusted to keep going.
r/AskALiberal question “Do you believe in natural rights?”
InB4 “that’s natural rights not human rights”: I know the terms aren’t synonyms, but the concepts overlap so heavily, and some of the replies to the question were so vehement, that they read to me as a rejection of the validity of human rights as a concept in part or in total. I’m willing to be corrected on this, but if it gets heated I will (advance warning) probably get emotionally overwhelmed and need a long time to compose a reply.
jasory@programming.dev 10 months ago
That’s mostly just a bunch of different people using different definitions of “natural rights”.
Many people seem to think that natural rights are ones granted by nature, but in actual philosophy nobody cares about this. Clearly wild animals or inanimate objects don’t grant humans rights, it’s what basis humans consider to be the source of a right. A natural right would be a right granted to you by another human based on the nature of your existence. It is a special consideration towards you on the basis that you are a human.
And the “divine right of kings” origin story is ridiculous, the concept of natural rights was not invented to justify monarchy or God.
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OnlyTakesLs@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
Theres a lot of different ideas of what human rights should be. Abortion is the easiest example. Its a human right to abort, which to some is murder. In that case, it would make sense to be against to be against human rights, if you believe that right is to murder.
Flax_vert@feddit.uk 11 months ago
Or from the other perspective, pro life people see Abortion as violating the right to life.
jasory@programming.dev 10 months ago
Well no. The problem with all the comments here is that they all presuppose that whatever the commenter likes is a human right.
Someone against abortion would not say “I oppose human rights” they would say “abortion is not a human right” and more than likely “abortion violates human rights”.
eatthecake@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Abortion is self defence, not murder.
vsg@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Some people live in dangerous places and believe that treating criminals like human beings is the same as ignoring their crimes. These people believe that human rights should only by those who deserve it by not harming the “good citizen”.
joel_feila@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Part of it is disagreement over what should be a right. I have genuinely met people that belive rights like protest, movment, voting, legal rep, should not given they must be earned. So they are pro rights just a very limited list.
Example say “health care is a right” in the usa.
mydude@lemmy.world 11 months ago
The ownerclass benefits from people not having protections. I don’t think you can put it any simpler than this. Slaves, child labour, debt cycles, prison labour, forced sex labour, all examples of none-existant or low protections.
MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world 11 months ago
It’s a requirement for Republicans, apparently.
bluGill@kbin.social 11 months ago
Rights are in conflict so you must at times. Abortion is a big one these days where a babies right to live is in direct with moms right to not be enslaved. It is rare for anyone to even acknowlege this conflict instead most acuse the other of hating human rights.
Neato@kbin.social 11 months ago
Most people disagree it's a baby. It's still a fetus in the vast majority of cases. All laws agree with that since no laws grant fetuses rights, they merely restrict a woman's choice.
bluGill@kbin.social 11 months ago
I don't know what most people believe - and I doubt you have data to verify your statement. However I do know that at minimum it is a very significant minority that disagrees with that fetus statement.
I'm trying to elevate the discussion to a different level. Instead of trying to defend your position can you instead step back and start understanding why some people think it is absurd? The world would be much better if people could do that more often.
hperrin@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Republicans are against abortion even when the fetus is already deceased, so it’s certainly not about anyone’s right to live. It’s about punishing women for having sex.
MightEnlightenYou@lemmy.world 11 months ago
There are many variations of human rights declarations. I appose this one the most: …wikipedia.org/…/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Right…
There are also specific articles in the universal declaration of human rights that I think are wrong
frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 11 months ago
There are also specific articles in the universal declaration of human rights that I think are wrong
Do you mind saying which ones?
MightEnlightenYou@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Article 16.3
The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
I disagree that the family is the fundamental group unit of society.
Article 25.2
Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
I feel discriminated that motherhood and not fatherhood are entirely to Worfield care.
ryathal@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
Not OP, but there’s a handful of things that can be found problematic dependingon your beliefs.
- The concept of legal or constitutionally granted human rights.
- The right to a minimum standard of living.
- That these rights exist so long as they are used in ways approved by the United Nations.
- The right to a nationality, enshrines the concept of a nation as a human right.
- Predominantly western influence in terms of inclusion, exclusion, and language.
- The lack of any force of law.
REdOG@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Some people define things differently than reality has ascribed, what are rights, while others are just cruel.
Ever wonder why ghosts keep up with modern language trends?
watson387@sopuli.xyz 11 months ago
They’re a piece of shit human.
ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Slavery (as an abstract, not necessarily racially motivated) has A LOT of benefits for the owning class.
I’m also vehemently opposed to any and all of it’s forms, just fyi.
Phen@lemmy.eco.br 11 months ago
Because they have been lied to about what it means.
GreyShuck@feddit.uk 11 months ago
In addition to the reasons suggested in several of the comments here so far, the philosopher Giorgio Agamben is extremely critical of the concept of human rights since they are a legal and political construct, and the same legal and political systems are used to create ‘exceptional’ circumstances in which the rights are deemed not to apply to certain groups. Relying on these rights is flawed, in his view, since they will be suspended when most needed. The Philosopize This Podcast did an episode on this just recently.
Jikiya@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I feel I might have misunderstood something here, as it seems like this argument is ‘Anal sex can’t be pleasurable, because that’s where poop comes from and poop is bad’. Am I understanding his argument correctly?
GreyShuck@feddit.uk 11 months ago
I have only heard of him through the podcast. I’d suggest listening to that. It’s a great series. Or, of course, his actual books are listed on the wiki page.
However, I think that he is saying that we shouldn’t be relying on something that can be and clearly IS being removed or ignored when inconvenient. Maybe, instead, we should be looking at respecting human life just for itself, without cluttering things up with legal language that doesn’t actually add anything.
Personally, I can see where he is coming from, and seldom think or speak in terms of rights myself for much the same reasons. But, either way, however much ignored or misused it is, I don’t think that we can realistically expect anyone who is likely to create exceptions to human rights to have any innate respect for people otherwise.
Until someone comes up with something better, human rights are about the best way of framing the ideas that we have.
PatFussy@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Maybe your understanding of human rights is different than theirs. Maybe
Ninjazzon@infosec.pub 11 months ago
Because he/she is a psychopath?
ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
In what context did this happen?
Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Either to troll, or misrepresenting the phrase for a “gotcha” moment, such as… “I believe in ORGANISM rights, not just humans deserve them!”
Lafari@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Sentient rights I can understand… but like… even single celled organisms like a bacteria o.O
imhotep1@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I am a “privileged whitevl guy” who married into a central American refugee family, and I can say there are a lot of people in developing countries that love human rights, but hate when they are applied to specific groups. Because if everyone has nothing, trying to help marginalized groups seems unfair to the majority who is also oppressed.
So if you want to fight femicide, or anti-LGBT discrimination, people not in that group often get angry because they want help too.
I obviously don’t agree, but I understand the viewpoint given their life experiences. What I don’t understand is when I meet Americans/1st world people who express the same sentiments. They need to go fuck themselves in the ass with a rusty spork and die of sepsis.
Only evil people and the ignorant are opposed to human rights.
amio@kbin.social 11 months ago
Context?
Maybe they're crazy. Maybe someone said "guy who openly opposes human rights says what?". Maybe they're evil. Maybe someone paid them. Maybe they have a rare form of speech impediment or verbal tic. Maybe they speak a language in which that's just "hello" or something. How is anybody supposed to know without any information?
pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I don’t actively oppose human rights; I just don’t think they work as an idea or a social institution. They don’t protect people from harm in any real meaningful capacity; only love and connection does, and I support stuff that actually does demonstrably protect people.
It really is better to just be one of the populars so no one wants to hurt you. And to have connections so everyone else is dependent on you in some capacity, so people actively suffer if they do try to hurt you.
Human rights cannot and never have accomplished either of those for anyone. We’re not a more peaceful world because of human rights; the same tragedies they were supposed to prevent prevailed and now fascism is taking over the world, and in the next decade we’re going to have the biggest genocides the world has ever seen.
And those same human rights are invoked to tie victims’ hands behind their backs whenever they try to fight back. They’re accused of violating their perpetrator’s human rights and of being equivalent to their oppressor by trying to avenge themselves or get rid of them or even just hold them accountable.
Human rights are a meaningless, unhelpful joke.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I don’t even know how to respond to this but I’m fascinated by it
pinkdrunkenelephants@lemmy.world 11 months ago
If only you meant that in an amicable way.
jasory@programming.dev 10 months ago
Never talked to a shroom-head before?
ieightpi@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I think this video sums it up pretty well.
youtu.be/2IrG68YTMjo?si=sMu6TrT9M0Sl0TXJ
If you haven’t watched Innuendo Studios content, it’s informative and to the point.
AnotherExist@lemmy.world 11 months ago
There was just a new episode of Philosophize This touching this topic. I don’t remember clearly, but some people had an issue with how human rights are made into law and how these laws are easily ignored when they are needed the most.
themeatbridge@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Lots of good answers here, but one I haven’t seen is that some people have different value systems. They would be the ones that say “yes, human rights would be nice, but at what cost?”
Typically, as everyone here has pointed out, they value their own well being and comfort. “We can’t end child slave labor because then a KitKat would cost $20.” They might cite economic priorities, national or personal security, religious beliefs, or civic pride (see: China).
dustyData@lemmy.world 11 months ago
It always boils down to the same core belief: “It’s OK for some humans to suffer and die in indignity.” The cruelty is the point. Yes, it’s a different value system, but usually it’s about putting something other than humanity above everything else. Be it money, religion or ideology, it’s always about the idea that some material or conceptual object is more valuable than human life. The other face of that coin is dehumanization, which is the idea that, “yes all humans deserve basic rights, but did you see what they did? They obviously are animals who don’t deserve rights.”
hushable@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Another common argument I’ve heard is regarding crime and criminals. Some politicians in my country tout that you cannot arrest criminals and we spend a fortune maintaining jails as if they were 5 star hotels. This is of course not true, but it does rail up the tough on crime crew who believe the only reason crime is rampant it is because it somehow allowed by human rights.
jasory@programming.dev 10 months ago
“Since human rights are international agreements”
No they’re not. Not in philosophy and not even in international law.
skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 11 months ago
themeatbridge@lemmy.world 10 months ago
So, if children aren’t used as slave laborers, everything becomes more expensive.
Isn’t that just what things cost? I mean, I could get free produce if I stole it from the local produce market. There are plenty of morally gray areas where reasonable people can have legitimate disagreements, but we can all get behind making child slaves illegal.
But you’ll say it’s a slippery slope. First rhe child slaves, then maybe all the slaves? What about the sex slaves? Are we just supposed to stop letting rich people have sex with unwilling humans? Where doe it end? If everyone has rights and freedom and access to food, shelter, medical care, and education, how will a tiny fraction of the population amass mountains of wealth and power? How will they manage to orgasm without squeezing the life from a poor immugrant who has been forcibly hooked on drugs?
No, I don’t think boycotting cheap goods will create human rights in China and India. People will need to fight for human rights, and we, the privileged few who can afford to vote with our dollars, should demand fair trade foreign policies from our elected officials. We should vote for people who are for human rights everywhere. We should support policies that promote equality everywhere. And if that means we can’t buy cheap jeans at Walmart, we should be prepared to accept that as an inconvenience.