They use a Mac mini somewhere to route these messages. So you’re logging into that Mac mini with your iCloud credentials. Sounds like a privacy/security nightmare and creepy as fuck.
Nothing Phone builds a blue bubble iMessage bridge while Google and Apple fight over RCS
Submitted 11 months ago by DannyMac@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
https://www.androidcentral.com/phones/imessage-comes-to-nothing-phone-2
Comments
penquin@lemmy.kde.social 11 months ago
decodehug647@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
It seems like all efforts to “bridge” imessage to anything outside apple software work this way - there’s a Matrix bridge and a dedicated open source app and they both rely on the imessage client on a mac. Is there a legitimate reason for it not being reverse-engineered yet?
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Is there a legitimate reason for it not being reverse-engineered yet?
The actual protocol isn’t a secret. It’s that the authentication of the device relies on a hardware key, and that key is fully locked down by Apple (as it also secures the user’s biometric logins, keyring, financial information in Apple Wallet, etc.).
EvokerKing@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I use beeper (a version of these apps that is actually released but kinda shit) and it’s perfectly fine. Their solution would be better because it runs locally on the phone, however it’s only on supported phones which is most likely just nothing phones.
helenslunch@feddit.nl 11 months ago
More likely just a Linux VM
teatowel@lemmy.world 11 months ago
iMessage only runs on Apple products
trk@aussie.zone 11 months ago
Solving the “blue bubble” problem is easy. Stop giving a fuck about what iPhone users care about.
Honytawk@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
Or Apple can stop being a bitch and just change the hex code.
EvokerKing@lemmy.world 11 months ago
They want iPhone users to have want they want and need when switching to Android. I think it’s not a bad idea. Personally, I find MMS to be horrible. Not because of lack of features but because it is different for everybody in one group chat. The messages become out of order, things don’t send but say they do, etc. iMessage isn’t the best solution, but if I’m being kicked out of group chats because I’m that one person making it MMS, then I’m all for iMessage on Android.
WindowsEnjoyer@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
I am wondering if there is any other alternative to SMS and MMS that works on all mobile & desktop platforms. Hmmm, let me think… Hmm… Probably not. 🙆
Maggoty@lemmy.world 11 months ago
No. Just no. Apple does not get to unilaterally make new protocols for the world.
brlemworld@lemmy.world 11 months ago
They bitch about it constantly
Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
I’m an adult, and I deal with family members bitching at me that are over 50. I explain to them every time that this is 100% Apple’s designed problem, and they like to roll their eyes in response.
Apple users CAN be really fucking annoying to deal with. In my admittedly limited experience, most of them are this way.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I’m an iPhone user and I don’t care about this. Not everyone who has an iPhone gives a shit about what phones other people use. Use whatever phone you want and whatever computer you want and whatever OS you want and stop giving a fuck about what other people use like it’s some sort of crime.
soulfirethewolf@lemdro.id 11 months ago
My problem with that is that a lot of them then insist on using an outdated standard that lacks encryption and high resolution media instead of just downloading something like WhatsApp, Signal, or Matrix.
orclev@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I predict one of two outcomes once Apple becomes aware of this. Either they’ll modify the iMessage protocol to break Nothing Phones compatibility, or they’ll sue Nothing Phone for violating some kind of IP law. Apple absolutely wants to maintain their walled garden and letting a non-Apple product transparently interact on equal footing with Apple products runs counter to that.
gregorum@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Outcome 3: they buy whatever company is responsible for creating this compatibility layer, integrate it so they can skate past several international regulations trying to open iMessage, and declare victory.
nuzzlerat@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Why would they buy a company that is using a workaround when they could just make an iMessage app for android
ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 11 months ago
The messaging is provided by a third party who is dedicated to working on their iMessage compatibility. Apple has no reason to stop this because this is a good move for them in the larger battle between mobile messaging standards.
Google owns Jibe, the company behind RCS messaging found on all Android phones and an emerging, competent product from the only game in town that can compete with Apple. Google has decided to take this to the government level and push for a unified phone messaging standard, normally a good thing, but people their own RCS solution.
Apple is pushing iMessage as a protest against Google and their inevitable lawsuit to conform with RCS adoption. Android may win unless Apple shows it has parity and provides a non-legislative option: if enough people use iMessage then governments don’t have to make any laws or enforce changes. The company Nothing is using iMessage, which helps Apple prove there is both a significant user base, which would cause a burden on Apple and it’s customers to change, and there is no monopoly on iMessage or messaging in general. So if enough people use iMessage, Apple sees it as a good thing.
Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
RCS is not a Google product, see en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSMA
Apple has been pushing iMessage for quite some time, but they want to keep it just to their platform and have made no attempt to make it open to other users. That’s Apples way and it’s not as a “protest” to Google lol
That’s like saying they made the lightning port as a protest to USB standards, nah they just want their proprietary shit.
helenslunch@feddit.nl 11 months ago
Apple has no reason to stop this because this is a good move for them in the larger battle between mobile messaging standards.
Uhhhh no? Don’t know if you’ve noticed but Apple is winning the battle between messaging standards, and they like it that way.
Rootiest@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Nah, Apple doesn’t care.
These bridges like the ones found in Beeper/Matrix require a Mac server to perform the handshake with Apple’s.
As long as these servers require Apple hardware to function Apple is making money.
It’s roughly equivalent to running iMessage on your Mac at home and making an Android/PC app that remotely sends/receives messages to/from that iMessage app on your Mac.
thekinghaslost@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Nah, if it gets big enough, Apple will care. They literally said (based on court document) that iMessage on Android is a horrible idea because it’ll make it easier for people to switch platform.
Cyberflunk@lemmy.world 11 months ago
RCS sucks ass. I have had more missed messages and fucked up communications due to it NOT USING SMS FALLBACK. other person isn’t available via IP? Then FUCK YOUR MESSAGE.
Want a different app? FUCK YOU
Wanna sort your messages, or filter them, or run an automation? FUCK. YOU.
I don’t blame apple for not implementing this shit.
Also, fuck bubble shaming
derpgon@programming.dev 11 months ago
I haven’t used SMS for anything besides receiving auth codes and maybe sending some short info to a stranger (for example a contractor). But then again, I live in Europe.
aidan@lemmy.world 11 months ago
SMS Is way more common I guess in the US because you can text anyone across the US, whereas before EU carriers may have charged more for inter-EU texts?
fne8w2ah@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Asia represent!
EvokerKing@lemmy.world 11 months ago
There is a reason they don’t send it until someone is online. On iMessage, you know if someone read it, not if they actually are able to receive it. If they fix the bug where the time of the message is when it finishes sending, it will be a great feature because you know if they have access to their phone and data. It will try to send it throughout the down time. Also you can use other rcs apps and have things go through rcs messages because of desktop authentication.
Cyberflunk@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Do you know of a different RCS enabled app than messages? Honest question
rikonium@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
iMessage indicates “Delivered” for messages that was received by a recipient device and switches to “Read [time]” when read.
Dra@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
The stupidest thing about this cultural identification with the message apps “bubble” color.
CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Isn’t it the fact that there will be features missing if someone doesn’t have iMessage? I genuinely don’t think anybody would care if it were just the color of the bubble that was different and nothing else.
amelia@feddit.de 11 months ago
I think green bubbles (non iPhone) means it’s using SMS so it can cost people money to send messages, especially images which would be sent as MMS I guess.
GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Yes. The iPhone to MMS connection has filesize limits that basically make sending video horribly compressed, and even still images are visibly limited in quality.
And then message reactions aren’t directly supported in MMS, so it becomes a clunky communications experience between iPhone and Android texting.
There’s also delivery confirmation, read receipts, and other indicators in an iMessage chat that aren’t supported in MMS.
The color of the bubble is a subtle UI indicator of what features are supported in the chat.
warmaster@lemmy.world 11 months ago
It’s a status symbol, sure… it may be stupid and primitive as a trophy around a caveman’s neck… but we are just wired like that.
Nothing special here.
ubermeisters@lemmy.world 11 months ago
No, we are wired to be programmed by giant companies to believe that the ways they influence us are just “toward the natural”.
crispy_kilt@feddit.de 11 months ago
Only poor people think a smartphone is a sign of wealth
Dra@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
It’s not at all, and only the most purile idiots would ever think that.
fne8w2ah@lemmy.world 11 months ago
*exceptional 'murican identification with the blue bubble.
Zoidberg@lemm.ee 11 months ago
And the same enlightened kids who are so aware about discrimination and gender fluidity (which is good) are the ones discriminating against others because they don’t have an iPhone.
steltek@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Teenagers today suffer unique threats to their health and wellbeing from technology. It may be super easy for you to say “who the fuck cares about the color” but that is far from the case for US teenagers. Willingly setting yourself apart from the group in high school is a precarious move in the best of circumstances.
And for the rest of us, this goes way beyond the color being used. The SMS/MMS fallback in iMessage offers a terrible experience for non-Apple users. Low quality media, inability to manage one’s own memeberships in groups, and no encryption. For those worried about the lack of e2ee: Android users participating in an iMessage conversation don’t have that today. You’re not losing anything from this solution.
Legal disclosures prove that Apple knowingly uses iMessage in an anticompetitive fashion. It’s a moat to keep people from switching away from iPhone. They are leveraging their position in the messaging market to shore up their restrictive phone products. I wish US antitrust enforcement was stronger in this area but until then, I hope Nothing has great success in breaking down this illegal barrier.
mangofromdjango@feddit.de 11 months ago
Really interesting how different the US is. Here in central europe it’s pretty much whatsapp, telegram, signal. Most people use 2 or 3 of those. Doesn’t matter what device they are using
Revanee@lemmy.one 11 months ago
iPhones are really popular over there. Most people have one. For teenagers it’s something ridiculous like 85% of them using an iPhone. In Europe we have a more balanced split, so only using iMessage wouldn’t fly here.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
I’ve seen a bit of an uptick in the use of Signal in the US, like it’s worth having it installed…sorta.
time_fo_that@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Personally, I miss out on a lot of group chats because all of my friends have iPhones.
They’ll create a group chat, I won’t get any messages, then suddenly I’m getting a call on Saturday saying “hey are you coming to the party?” or more often than not I don’t get notified at all and end up hearing about all of the things I miss at a later time. It’s annoying, but I really hate iOS so I deal with it.
I’ve got an iMessage server running on my NAS but it’s not perfect, it requires that the iPhone user send the message to my iMessage account associated with my email, not with my phone number.
CatTrickery@lemmy.world 11 months ago
PyPush lets you link your number to your Apple Account using demo.py if you need that. It needs a cron job to sit on it for the first few weeks but after that its fine.
max@lemmy.world 11 months ago
How is Apple keeping iMessage an Apple exclusive anticompetitive? That’s like saying Google needs to share their search algorithms because they’re “leveraging their position in the search engine market to shore up their restrictive products.”
In the end, Apple created a service that is massively popular and makes people want to use their products. The fact that US teenagers refuse to use one of their many competitors is hardly their fault. The rest of the world doesn’t give a shit about iMessage either.
Revanee@lemmy.one 11 months ago
Google search is available on apple devices though. Same with stuff like Gmail. Imagine if YouTube didn’t have an app for iOS and you had to use the browser. That would be worse for consumers, but Google could use it as a way to force people into Android. That’s what Apple is doing with iMessage and the whole phone ecosystem is worse because of it, whether you care or not.
steltek@lemm.ee 11 months ago
You can read about it here: macrumors.com/…/epic-apple-no-imessage-on-android…
Using a dominant market segment to reduce competition in another has always been an antitrust violation. A notable example is MS leveraging their Windows monopoly to force Internet Explorer on people.
Honytawk@lemmy.zip 11 months ago
You’d have a point if Apple was in the search engine market.
EngineerGaming@feddit.nl 11 months ago
How the hell do so many teens afford these??
steltek@lemm.ee 11 months ago
It’s far cheaper than your first car and arguably more important. You find a way when you have to.
redditReallySucks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
This is dumb. For two reasons:
- the fact that a messenging service locks users into an ecosystem.
- the fact that to use this an apple device is still used in the background. This means you log in with your apple id on a device that does not belong to you and that can possibly read all of your messages.
ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 11 months ago
RCS is practically limited to android ecosystem. Many of the carriers are dependent on Google Jibe to support it.
No one except Google and approved manufacturers can make a RCS app.
redditReallySucks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
That’s true and I agree that this also stupid. We should all go back to emails with pgp encryption. These are both open standards.
Squizzy@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I think issue two is a great way to address issue one.
They have made a closed ecosystem to support their lack of innovation and address their declining sales.
But now people could be able to get into this system that otherwise wouldn’t and use it without giving apple any information, other than potentially putting actual customers messages and AppleIDs at risk.
Because the android forever people who this is for will not have anything important linked to their AppleID but the people they message likely will or at the very least now their communications are at risk given they go through a third party machine.
Teknikal@lemm.ee 11 months ago
Honestly I’m typing this on a Nothing phone and if this appears on my phone instead of them actually fixing the many bugs I’ll be quite pissed.
Every update this phone gets worse and the company seems more obsessed with things like beer, clothing lines and now imessage than actually trying to fix anything that’s actually important.
TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Nothing often gives me the impression that they sit around and get high off the smell of their own farts. Glad to hear there is some truth to this speculation.
andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
They are the punk-rock of smartphones
if it was imagined by CEOs of a major label.
At least, they got the cover art right.
HidingCat@kbin.social 11 months ago
Wife's Nothing(1) seems just fine. My only issue with the design is how it acts like an echo chamber for the haptic motor. It actually is quite noisy at the higher settings.
pastabatman@lemmy.world 11 months ago
This really demonstrates how apple has its customers and competitors by the balls when it comes to messaging. This OEM is putting time and resources into developing an unauthorized iMessage app using banks of mac minis as servers and requiring users to grant them access to their iCloud account, a system that apple could “break” or sue out of existence on a whim. RCS isn’t the perfect solution, but it’s better than this.
ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Google wants everyone’s message data, that’s why their pushing it so aggressively.
RCS is technically an open standard. But in reality it completely depends on Google’s Jibe system to make it work for many carriers.
The recent anti competitive trials has shown Google is willing to pay apple billions for people’s internet activity to go through them. With Google currently pushing anti iMessage ads to shame apple into supports RCS, Google has most likely offered Apple a lot of money to use RCS. Apple has decided it’s not worth it.
Why apple isn’t supporting RCS is unknown. But it either user privacy or user retention to their ecosystem. Either way they don’t think more exposure to Google is good for their users. This ‘open’ standard is a joke. If it doesn’t make Google money soon, they kill it like all their previous messenger projects.
BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 11 months ago
User retention and RCS sucks. It has serious reliability issues.
BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 11 months ago
RCS is far worse than this. It’s garbage, doesn’t work.
decodehug647@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
It’s also noteworthy that the RCS platform adopted by companies worldwide is run by Jibe, a company owned by Google. Doubtless, Apple doesn’t want to use Google’s servers any more than it needs to.
“open protocol” my ass. Google just wants control over everything.
KrummsHairyBalls@lemmy.ca 11 months ago
regulatorg@kbin.social 11 months ago
Apple will just block it once they catch on
infinitepcg@lemmy.world 11 months ago
In a video from MKBHD they mentioned this problem and they said that the idea is basically that Apple will not block it because it will bring them bad PR and attention from regulators who are concerned with anti trust issues. Hard to predict what will actually happen but Apple just blocking 3rd party access and citing (legitimate) privacy and security concerns seems to be a likely outcome.
redditReallySucks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 months ago
Dont see how they could. The servers are real apple devices. Apple has no way to know if this is a mac from a real user or somebody proposing a message bridging service to non apple users. Dont see why they’d care either as they make money from the purchased server infrastructure.
SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 months ago
Sunbird is closed source so you just have to take their word for it when they say they don’t store messages or credentials. How the fuck could you know if they’re lying or not? You can’t because it’s closed source.
scytale@lemm.ee 11 months ago
The blue vs green bubble thing never really bothered me. As long as I can communicate with the person I’m talking to, I don’t care how the messages are sent, unless maybe if I don’t want a message to be sent over plain sms. It’s ridiculous how it has become a status thing.
smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
Internet has standardized instant messaging 34 years ago.
soulfirethewolf@lemdro.id 11 months ago
I’m still curious if this is even legal. It seems like a really good idea, but is Apple going to be able to sue over it? I almost feel like it could be covered under the reverse engineering clause, because it is meant to enable interoperability with another product. But Apple’s terms of service already seem really hamstrung on what is and is not allowed. With the macOS SLA beginning with:
For use on Apple-branded Systems
Obviously iMessage isn’t macOS, and I can’t seem to find a specific terms of service for iMessage specifically, but it is running on it. Which is what would make this integration possible. So what makes me wonder if Apple’s lawyers could find a clause there.
Lalop@mujico.org 11 months ago
This sounds like The Onion, ridiculous.
WindowsEnjoyer@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
This is just retarded. If you need those bubbles or whatever features Apple provides - just use an iPhone.
I am using Android and I have no issues with Apple users. 🙆
mojo@lemm.ee 11 months ago
This could easily be blocked by Apple
macgyver@federation.red 11 months ago
Are these a Matrix/Beeper bridge?
stefano@blendit.bsd.cafe 11 months ago
Goodbye, privacy
MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 11 months ago
Whatever, Matrix/XMPP work with l carrier-independent protocols.
lolola@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 months ago
when did SMS go out of style?
lemann@lemmy.one 11 months ago
Nice one, not sure why it’s geo restricted to the US, Canada, and Europe though, unless that’s a limitation of the bridge software they’re using. Could be a pretty neat selling point for a small subset of users, but I don’t think it’ll make people reconsider which Android they choose to upgrade to.
Also nice to see e2ee RCS implemented outside of Samsung and Google’s apps.
For anyone looking at alternatives, there’s AirMessage (if you have a mac, real or virtualized), and Beeper (not free, in any sense of the word, but supports even more messengers)
smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
Can’t you just change the color in the settings?
scarabic@lemmy.world 11 months ago
This sounds promising. But given how much money there should be in this, their timidity is puzzling. Perhaps the solution is brittle or subject to legal or technical challenges. Just read between the lines on this. They’ve got the cure for cancer but there keeping it in animal testing for now…
The app is currently in beta and we’ve decided to keep availability more focused to ensure the best user experience at this time. Although we’re excited to be the first mobile company to introduce a blue bubble solution and we’d like to make it as widely available to Android enthusiasts as we can, we’re prioritizing delivering an optimal user experience before committing to expansion at this time.
yoz@aussie.zone 11 months ago
Lol really ? Who the fuck cares ? I think its just the stupid media hyping it all up, Over a color of a fucking msg? Man Losers born every minute. Smh
GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 11 months ago
They’ve stated that they are using Mac minis as relays. They claim that they do not store messages or credentials, but I don’t see how that’s possible if it relies on a Mac or iOS relay server that they control.
LWD@lemm.ee 11 months ago
SHITPOSTING_ACCOUNT@feddit.de 11 months ago
They might be able to relay them in a way that the end to end encryption is actually handled on the phone and the relay only relays encrypted messages.
That would likely still give them a capability to MitM but it’s plausible that they couldn’t passively intercept the messages.
Rootiest@lemmy.world 11 months ago
If it’s anything like Beeper 's Matrix bridge then it’s E2EE Matrix encrypted between your device and the bridge server and then using Apple’s iMessage encryption between the bridge server and Apple/the other user.
The weak point is always going to be the bridge software as by necessity the message must be decrypted there to re-encrypt for iMessage.
At least in Beeper/Matrix the bridge software is open source and one can host their own bridge while continuing to use the existing Beeper/Matrix main server.
Doing so gives you no-trust security since the Beeper/Matrix host cannot decrypt the messages between you and the bridge you control.