im christian
and i am sick of people shoving it down clearly uninterested peoples throats
Check mate, atheists.
Submitted 3 weeks ago by ObviouslyNotBanana@piefed.world to [deleted]
https://media.piefed.world/posts/ar/oL/aroLlQJFMjmjMUl.jpeg
Comments
ollie@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
binarytobis@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Have you seen Wake Up Dead Man? Had a really intriguing take on reconciling atheists and theists in a way I found very valuable.
ObviouslyNotBanana@piefed.world 2 weeks ago
I mean there’s nothing wrong with believing. I don’t, but I also don’t go around trying to convince people to be like me. If it comes up I might share why I don’t believe and I’m more than willing to listen to someone who does. I see the value in it.
ollie@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
if someone wants to respectfully discuss their beliefs, im happy to listen, thats a nice thing to talk about! but i wouldnt want to talk about it to someone whos uninterested
pancakes@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
I’m not religious, but I can see the immense value that religion had historically as an imperfect guide to ethics and practical knowledge.
Sure, we can scoff at the hypocrisy and flaws now with our years of schooling, but the common person didn’t have the same access to academia back them. Short, memorable stories that show people getting punished for misdeeds and others rewarded for positive deeds is much easier to impart onto peasants than the nuances of collectivism.
Someone could point to the horrible acts done in the name of religion, but just imagine if those people didn’t have the fear of god in them. Tribalism would have separated humans into different nonreligious groups to genocide in a world without religion.
Passerby6497@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Someone could point to the horrible acts done in the name of religion, but just imagine if those people didn’t have the fear of god in them
Lol no. Imagine if these people didn’t think they were still righteous in the eyes of god, maybe they might not have felt the need to torture in the name of their god.
TheDoozer@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Short, memorable stories that show people getting punished for misdeeds and others rewarded for positive deeds is much easier to impart onto peasants than the nuances of collectivism.
I would agree if the stories consistently portrayed that. In the Bible and Torah, Job is the most righteous and good and gets fucked because of that. David has a faithful soldier that goes so far as to refuse to go home to his wife while his comrades were still fighting, and David has him killed in a fucked up way (told his general to send him where the fighting was worst and then have everybody pull back from him), all to try to cover up fucking the soldier’s wife. David’s “punishment” was he married the hot widow and the child conceived in the affair was miscarried. And as soon as she miscarried, David shrugged it off and moved on with his life.
Also, the entire Christian religion is based on absolution for whatever evil you do, you just have to be part of the club. If Hitler had “come to Jesus” right before he died, he would be in heaven while an atheist who spent their whole life doing good would be in hell. Deeds are irrelevant for punishment.
And let’s not even get into Greek Mythology, where how good or bad of a human you were was completely irrelevant to what happened to you at the whims of the gods. Same for Norse.
I don’t know how it is for any other religions, as I haven’t studied them, but I don’t think religion was required to establish a moral code and accountability. The Code of Hammurabi didn’t require religion to have a legal code (while recognizing the relief at the top showing the god of justice handing it to Hammurabi, it seems pretty clear that was artistic expression), and it pre-dated the Ten Commandments.
Someone could point to the horrible acts done in the name of religion, but just imagine if those people didn’t have the fear of god in them.
I just… what kind of argument is this? Do you think the people running the Spanish Inquisition would have tortured harder if they didn’t have the “fear of god” in them? That the Crusades would have been bloodier? What reason do you have to think that the horrible acts done in the name of religion would have been worse if it wasn’t for religion?
guy@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Short, memorable stories that show people getting punished for misdeeds and others rewarded for positive deeds
You don’t need religion for that when there’s folklore
stupidcasey@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I can see the value I can also see the harm I can also see the hypocrisy in asserting there is no God or that the universe came from nothing, in the end it’s all the same and humans are just humans being humans.
SnarkoPolo@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You can’t have a rational discussion with a religionist, particularly one of the Christian/Islamic variety. They will appeal to their book of stories and to them, that should be enough for us.
pendel@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
Kinda ironic that your source for this is gonna have to be trust me bro
Zetta@mander.xyz 2 weeks ago
I get your point, but also if religious people were rational, they wouldn’t be religious. So the trust me bro thing works because it’s true lol
Gaja0@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
“This” meaning religion?
rmrf@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Part of science is reproducible events, no?
guy@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Jesus Jesus God God!
That’s convincingNickwithaC@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It’s fun to sing it to the tune of Happy Happy Joy Joy!
Flocklesscrow@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
chugging sacramental wine
DarkFuture@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I like it when you ask for proof and they open their arms and gesture broadly at everything.
To be fair, I wish I was a simpleton. I think life is more fun that way.
ivanafterall@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Ignorance might not truly be bliss, but it’s certainly closer to it.
Katana314@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The term “faith” made a lot more sense to me once I thought of believing in the goodness of other people like a faith.
You have no logic saying it’s there, even get disproved often. But you keep believing in it in spite of the absence of evidence.
TheOakTree@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
This is why I can’t discredit faith, but I still do my best to point out how organizational religion has always exploited people. Not that all of it is bad. But there needs to be better safeguards for people to have the opportunity to find or reject faith for themselves, and instead it’s mostly indoctrination.
ivanafterall@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
So you’ve NEVER seen evidence of human goodness?
That’s where I think the analogy falls apart dramatically. It’s the difference between “potentially kinda rare, sadly” and “non-existent and a signal of likely mental illness.”
Katana314@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Plenty of people can point to a beautiful sunrise and say “See? There’s your evidence that God exists.” And of course, you’d try to point them to genocide in Sudan, and they’d ignore you.
It becomes much the same issue.
Petter1@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
You need more culture, art and music in your live… But not the big corporations soul-less stuff, the good stuff, the real stuff
WanderWisley@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Doesn’t believe in god, wile masterbating keeps saying “oh my god!” Checkmated myself…
FenrirIII@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I shout “By Grabthar’s Hammer”
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Bible is essentially the sole source, a novel of historical fiction. Just enough reality tossed in to make it all real. You’d think news that a dude running around magically healing people, or magically creating food and wine, would have spread like wildfire and the authorities would have snatched him up immediately and made him serve the wealthy and powerful on demand. Greed hasn’t changed in thousands of years, there would have been official Roman records of magical deeds. But no, it wasn’t the magic that bothered the authorities, it was bucking the system.
thedeadwalking4242@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Usually the response I get is
“Actually there’s historical fact that jesus was alive and there was a flood and that the earth is 5000s year old and there’s a firmament. Scientific fact! 🤓👆”
Drives me insane. Even the reasonable Christians eat this shit up.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
they do this alot in shows that remotely christianity plotlines, anything deviating from thier bible that they never read, they would either call it woke, or something else.
MeowerMisfit817@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Gravity Falls–
Yeah, once I was searching something about Bill Cipher, my mother passed by and gave me a whole lecture about “satanic media”
halvar@lemy.lol 2 weeks ago
Religions aren’t something to be argued about with the tools of empiricism. The mythologies of religions are non-provable, that’s why they are also called faith. If someone religious tries to “prove” the statements of their religion to someone who doesn’t believe in them not only are they misguided but also most likely not too sharp, since they can’t recognize the utter futility of what they are doing. It’s futile not only because they have no chance of convincing their talking partner, but also because there is no way to prove anything about religion.
That doesn’t mean people can’t or shouldn’t have a religion by the way, it just means what I said, that there is no way to argue about religion empirically and so you shouldn’t.
With that said I do also think this is a bit of a strawman. I’m sure there are people who despite the (in my opinion) immensely obvious stupidity of the aforementioned behavior do behave like that, but I mostly only hear about this type of people when hardcore atheists (to whom the same applies by the way, you also can’t disprove faith and someone whose sole basis for reality isn’t empirical observation can’t be convinced by you trying to disprove it) parodize it.
In the end I think the problem with the conversation depicted is that on a logical level it’s the same as two religions arguing with eachother. They have completely different ways in which they define reality, so there is no way to come to a common understanding of it by arguing. You won’t convince someone about the existence of God who only believes in what can be proven by experiment and you won’t convince someone of the non-existence of God who believes in God because they don’t have that same way of defining reality. Doing so either way would very closely mirror for example a Buddhist being convinced to become a Christian.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Exactly, the experience of religion is felt internally and through community. As someone who went Christian -> atheist -> pagan, I can say I do understand both sides. Atheists are right to say that without evidence religion shouldn’t have any power over non-believers. Religious people are right to say that for some people religion serves a role that would be missed without it.
On issues of religion, even as someone who’s been pagan longer than she was an atheist I generally side with the atheists. I grew up watching Christians try to prove Christianity despite our denomination (catholicism) having the doctrine of non-overlapping magesteria, which basically says that anything science can prove belongs to science and where religion contradicts it must be taken as metaphor or flowery language. I’m far better served by freedom from religion than freedom to use religion as a cudgel, just as all minority religions are.
YeahIgotskills2@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Well said. There’s also something about a certain type of atheist who confidently voices their refusal to believe in anything unless empirical evidence, that I personally find mildly irritating.
I appreciate critical thinking and I’m quite skeptical myself, but it’s that confident certainty that nothing that hasn’t been proven scientifically is real that slightly irks me.
It’s a mindset that seems to conveniently omit the possibility of future scientific discoveries and ‘unknown science’, and comes off in some as a somewhat smug, arrogant outlook that, somewhat ironically, can often be found in the blindly religious.
nexguy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The whole point of faith is that you accept it blindly without evidence and should not even try to find evidence as this would be s sign of weak faith.
Well isn’t that convenient
Codpiece@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
That’s easy, it’s all in the Bible. You can’t deny anything that’s in the Bible. That’s always the checkmate.
Codpiece@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
And by bible you mean one of the many different versions from different denominations because none of them could agree what was correct. Or because the powers in charge at whatever period of time decided to create their own edited version to better control the population.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
All translated from translations of translations of languages that nobody speaks. So I’m sure the final product of this inter-millenial game of telephone is perfect. Why? Because it is the ordained word of God, so of course it is. Checkmate.
ABetterTomorrow@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Spider-Man, Batman, aqua man, Garfield
AethiopeRoot@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
🤔are you okay, mentally?
PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org 3 weeks ago
No but I’m used to it 😆
Reygle@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If book = proof of a deity, and there is also book titled Revelations of Gla’aki, logic then dictates that we have proof of Cthulu, Gla’aki, and countless other elder gods who are so far beyond us they may not even recognize the fact we exist at all.
SO
By Catholic logic, they’ll be offing themselves out of existential nightmares any minute now, right?
Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
If every god from a book is real i’d say that one of the last gods i would worahip is the christian one, dude it’s so boring tbh
Kolanaki@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
“And what is your evidence that DC-8s exist, Mr. Hubbard?”
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
What a stupid premise to begin with. God is at least as real as money, love, or America.
All of these are useful ideas to describe things that cannot be “proven” with objective evidence, but still have a meaningful impact on the reality of our lives.
Arguing about the objective existence of God is a red herring. I wish we spent as much time talking about the very well studied social benefits and harms of religion. Then we could start talking about meaningful reforms.
Bytemeister@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Why make an ideological argument against ideologies?
Science also led to eugenics and atom bombs. Religion also builds food pantries, wells, and hospitals. It is not about the tool but how we choose to use it.
wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Credit where it’s due, science built the plane.
Nalivai@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Well, the main reason for that big plain-into-building debacle was US going to the middle east to do some bombing, and the main reason for that is economical (well, and racist, but that’s a given). The only religious part there was people doing suicide bombing instead of shooting rockets.
YeahIgotskills2@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
“God Speed, John Glen”
Oppopity@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
It’s not a red herring. Religious people don’t treat god like some social concept that doesn’t physically exist but still plays a role in how we interact in our society. They claim their god literally exists.
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
People claim money actually exists, too. It’s not an inherent property of human existence. It’s just an organizing principle that helps us coordinate resources.
It would be stupid if the main argument we had about money was whether on not it “exists.” By “stupid” I mean that it is counterproductive to the goals of bettering humanity. We don’t get anywhere with that discussion. Instead, we talk about how we should use use money as a tool to better organize our society. We talk about equity and advancement and poverty.
It’s the same with religion. It’s been well studied that religion offers social benefits:
Association between spirituality/religiousness and quality of life 2021
Assessing the Faith-Based Response to Homelessness in America Image
63.2% food pantries are identified as being faith-based food pantries
With this being Lemmy, I don’t have to highlight the negative consequences of religion.
The point is that we should be advancing beyond the kindergarten level discussion about what’s real and what’s make-believe. Intelligent people should instead be engaging on how we can ensure religious beliefs are fostering social trust, or how to recognize and combat religious extremism.
neukenindekeuken@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
You appear to be moving the goalposts. These are all concepts. God is not as real as Money or Love or America. You’re conflating several things here to try and obfuscate that the existence of God being proven isn’t a “big deal”.
If something is real, it can be proven, observed, the effects replicated. This is how every thing in the universe works. No exceptions.
Money can be proven, even the idea of it, even though it’s “conceptual”. It has real value, it’s a construct we created and it has physical objects in the real world and can be exchanged for goods and services. It’s a real idea that takes physical shape in the world and it can be proven as a real world concept.
Love is a concept, and while the nuances behind it aren’t well understood, it’s as real as anything anyone feels, like hate, fear, or any emotion. It’s an emotion, and emotions are a part of the human empathic experience. It’s something we’ve evolved and learned over time. It’s real because we make it real every day. Love isn’t existential, it doesn’t have some power we’re unable to measure. It can’t bend or warp or shift reality. It can’t do anything more than we can do as a human. In all the ways that matter, any result of love is 100% measurable and observable in the physical world.
America is a real place, a real continent, a real country, with real people, and while the idea of a country or its people changes over time, it’s not “fake” or made up, in the same way a claim about a deity is. The idea of America might be what you’re referring to, but it’s as real as any other shared idea or dream people have had in history, including Rome, the EU, etc.
You’re intentionally trying to muddy the waters and misdirect here by conflating the “realness” of God with 3 things that are nothing like the claim of God, and that can be quite easily proven with objective evidence.
Anything anyone claims that exists outside of our ability to observe, test, or measure, is either talking about things so small or far away that we haven’t developed the tools to measure and observe them yet, or they’re spouting bullshit.
Which bucket do the claims of god, and all religions fall into do you think?
ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Thank you
Flocklesscrow@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Nicely said
HazardousBanjo@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I disagree.
Money and nations are well understood to be merely human made systems. They exist within the realm of human control to some degree, and therefore immediately invite open discussions and criticism.
God, in the eyes of those that believe in him, is the ultimate force of the universe of whom all existence and morality hinges upon. Unlike the other things you mentioned, there is fundamentally zero negotiations, criticisms, objections nor doubt’s that can be had against God.
It is significantly harder to convince someone that their perfect being of a God is evil and than it is that money or nations are tools of evil.
Lemminary@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
How is it stupid if religious people really do argue that their god as an entity is real? I don’t think the comic tries to dispute that the concept of gods aren’t.
CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org 2 weeks ago
Neither money nor states are dogmatic in their nature. They exist under some basis, that can be verified, and that defines their properties. Gods have arbitrary abilities that cannot be verified.
The only benefits of a religion are being a part of community and coping with reality. The first is not unique to religion, the second is delusional and leads to lots of misjudgement, harms one’s ability to percieve and analyze the objective reality. In other words, even the benefits are quite controversial in their usefulness here.
By the way, if you think about this, religion as a coping mechanism is as widespread only because it have been a substitute for more healthy alternatives for literal milleniums.
Religion should be a thing of past, but alas, magical thinking is still strong in modern society. To get rid of religions, first and foremost we should teach people about common logic fallacies and manipulations, so they would detect and avoid them more easily
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’ve shared several peer reviewed papers that show the opposite.
BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Spongebob Squarepants making a rainbow with his hands and the word “CAPITALISM” is overlayed.