Chicken vs Egg

Comments

• brown567@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The compression artifacts (from converting B/W line art to jpg) being printed on the page have given me a new pet peeve

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  • androogee@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Now imagine them being engraved into stone or steel by machine. Turned into literal artifacts for future generations to ponder over.

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    • Speculater@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      “The intentional grey diamonds, you see this was a highly advanced society capable of high definition videos and images, represents a loving fealty to that which is complete or known. The imperfections in the art represent an acknowledgement of their societal short falls. This will be on the exam by the way.”

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  • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Jpg for photos, png for everything else.

    It’s an easy rule of thumb, it hurts that 20 years of repeating it seems to have had zero effect.

    Maybe this helps: Jpg fucks up your image, and png doesn’t.

    Or: jpg is lossy, png is lossless.

    Or: It’s better to save photos as png than cartoons as jpg.

    Seriously, I hope some of this breaks through because deep fried images are so fucking unnecessary.

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    • LostXOR@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I hear WebP can often offer much better compression than PNG in lossless mode so that could be an alternative.

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    • nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Are there any downsides to saving photos as pngs?

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  • chetradley@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    John Warnock is rolling in his grave right now.

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• LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The chicken vs egg question has never been about chronology or science.

  It’s been about religion vs science.

  Science says the egg came first: a chicken laid an egg that was nearly imperceptibly not a chicken, so the egg was a new thing. Then it hatched and one of its descendants laid an egg that was almost imperceptibly not a not-a-chicken. Repeat ad nauseum. That’s how evolution works, with the egg coming first.

  Religion says a god poofed a chicken into existence.

  That’s the chicken vs egg thing. It’s not a puzzle at all, it’s just science vs religion.

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  • srecko@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You can interpret it that way now but that’s not the original meanig.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg

    I understand and respect where you are coming from but i prefer not to rewrite history while arguing about ideas.

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    • AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yes, thank you, you’re exactly right. The person you’re responding to is correct that it’s come to have science vs religion overtones, but that’s not what the expression meant to people for ages and ages.

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    • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You’re right, I shouldn’t have said ‘never’. It was a paradox in ancient history, but at least in my lifetime, I’ve read it as basically solved. That may be a relatively recent stance (since 100-200 years ago), but it doesn’t seem useful to continue presenting it as a paradox at this point.

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  • dharmacurious@slrpnk.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’ve always interpreted it as which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

    But I’d just like to point out not all religions have that view of creationism vs evolution, and even within Christianity it’s really only your super conservative, and very loud, fundamentalists. Catholicism doesn’t have an official stance on evolution, iirc, the Episcopal church in the USA is fully supportive of evolution, as are most mainline Christians. Not to detract from your point or anything, I just don’t like seeing all religious people, or all Christians, lumped together with some of the worst examples of religiosity that the US has to offer.

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    • InternetPerson@lemmings.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Religion is usually bad, so I don’t have an issue lumping them all together.

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    • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’ve always interpreted it as which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

      I agree. And this boils down to how you define ‘chicken egg’. If the definition is “egg laid by a chicken”, then the chicken had to have come first. If it’s “egg that hatches a chick” (which will grow into a chicken), then the egg must have come first. But this ignores the pretty huge problem of picking a precise point on the evolutionary timeline where a non-chicken gave birth to a chicken. There isn’t going to be such a clearly-defined point.

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  • pyre@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    literally no one in the world means that when they talk about chicken vs egg

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    • LillyPip@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It made Fox News in 2015.

      A biology paper that same year..

      Religios people seem to care.

      More religious people care

      Biologists have been talking about it.

      BBC Science covered it.

      I didn’t pull this out of my arse.

      And re: that citation you asked for:

      God created mature birds with the ability to reproduce. So the bird was first, ready to lay eggs.

      — Answers In Genesis

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  • 01101000_01101001@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is by far the most correct answer to the chicken and egg question.

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    • Jako301@feddit.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Not really, it still doesn’t answer the question.

      Is the first chicken egg the one the chicken hatched from or the first egg a chicken laid.

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  • Iron_Lynx@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I think there are two valid scientific/philosophical answers without taking religion into it, based on one question:

    Are we specifically talking a chicken egg, or the concept of an egg?

    In the former case, eggshells contain compounds that cannot exist in nature, and must come from a creature. a chicken egg cannot exist without a chicken before it, thus the chicken came first.

    In the latter case, various evolutionary splits happened between animals evolving egg developing capability and some animals evolving into chickens. From this we can say that the egg came before the chicken.

    Worst case, this solved exactly nothing. Best case, it can be an exercise in reasoning.

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  • woop_woop@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s been around a lot longer than Christianity. It’s about cause and effect.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_or_the_egg

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• lowleveldata@programming.dev ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  At which point does an egg of non-chicken become an egg of chicken?

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  • rockerface@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Chickenness is a spectrum, not a binary

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    • DumbAceDragon@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Is archeopteryx a chicken?

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    • dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s quite controversial.

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  • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Is a “chicken egg” an egg laid by a chicken, or an egg that will hatch into a chicken?

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    • PapaStevesy@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It’s an egg that will hatch into a chicken, since the “first” chicken must have hatched out of an egg that was laid and fertilized by two “non-chickens” whose DNA combined together to make a full-blown chicken. Of course it wasn’t actually just one egg, but really, no matter how you think about it, the egg came first.

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    • BassTurd@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The former, otherwise it would be “chicken’s egg”.

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    • candybrie@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I think it’s an egg laid by a chicken. Unfertilized eggs laid by chickens that will never become chickens are still chicken eggs.

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    • Sadbutdru@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I feel like my comment in another thread is even more relevant here:

      I have no direct knowledge about that, but if we take the analogy of the egg (shell, albumen and yolk sack) being the life-support system of the embryo during gestation, in humans the placenta would be a big part of that, and exactly whose body it is part of its not simple (from what I remember both mother and child contribute cells, and the ‘plan’ for building it comes from the father’s genes). So maybe for chickens it could be ambiguous whether the shell ‘belongs’ to the laying generation or the hatching one. Seems like mostly a human taxonomy distinction to make anyway, obviously it’s in between the two, but we like to draw the line somewhere.

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  • Lemminary@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    When first chicken lay egg, duh!

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    • manucode@infosec.pub ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Unless you define a chicken egg as an egg of which a chicken is born (or of which a chicken could be born)

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  • Rhaedas@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Wherever humans draw the line. The meme uses the assumption that there is a clear change from earlier species to later descendants, when it reality it is a continuous change of many characteristics each time an individual reproduces and spreads their genetics. It's the flaw of the missing link argument.

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  • underwire212@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    When genetic mutation happened between non-chicken and its egg to create real chicken

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• rockSlayer@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Over time, a population of proto-chickens lay eggs with unique genetic variations that randomly direct the population towards laying eggs that result in modern chickens. The egg comes first, and it’s a whole bunch of them

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• AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  That’s some good jpeg

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  • fossilesque@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    delicious, sweet jpeg

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    • breakcore@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Delicious artifacts uhmm

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• AffineConnection@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This cladogram is outdated about turtles, which are no longer considered the most phylogenetically basal reptiles.

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• HonoraryMancunian@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  TIL turtles are older than crocodiles

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  • Wilzax@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    No, turtles and crocodiles share an older closest common ancestor than lizards and crocodiles.

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• madcaesar@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I know this is a science meme community but the amount of factually inaccurate comments is concerning.

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  • HonoraryMancunian@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There are more stars in the galaxy than there are atoms in the universe

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  • shikogo@pawb.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Unironically would be interested in a list of them, with explanations why they’re wrong. Not to dunk on them but to check my own misconceptions.

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• JadenSmith@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I haven’t understood how this question seems difficult to so many. Not trying to put anyone down, but chicks hatch from eggs. In order for a chicken to be classified as a chicken (as we know it to be), it would have hatched out of an egg.

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  • Brickardo@feddit.nl ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    When they say egg they mean chicken egg, not any kind of egg. It’s not completely clear if the first chicken came up from what you’d call your usual chicken egg.

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    • Whelks_chance@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Is it a chicken egg if it came from a chicken, or contains a chicken?

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  • lugal@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    And who laid that egg? Certainly not me. The implication is that it’s about a chicken egg and it’s not difficult, it just doesn’t have a determinative answer because chicken is a spectrum. What even is the first chicken? There ain’t just a thing, that’s not how evolution works. It’s a gradual change from once species to another like language change. Who was the first speaker of modern English and how could they understand their middle English speaking parents?

    That’s why the chicken and egg thing is used as an allergy for questions that do not have a straightforward answer. Who started the fight? “Certainly not me, I made a joke and you took it seriously and then you insulted me” “I didn’t hit you hard but you did”

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  • konju376@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    To expand on this: mutations between generations happen exactly there, between generations. So the parents of the “first” chicken (if you draw the line somewhere on the evolutionary scale) were not chicken; the egg however was a chicken egg, as it contained a chicken.

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    • JadenSmith@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Exactly. Well put.

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• TurboHarbinger@feddit.cl ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Are chickens even real?

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  • XTL@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yes, unless declared integer.

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  • InternetPerson@lemmings.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Or are they local?

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• BrazenSigilos@ttrpg.network ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The egg came first. To the chickens disappointment and, who left to find a more satisfying partner.

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• ParabolicMotion@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Forget the chicken. What came first, the tardigrade, or the egg? Well, in this case, I think the tardigrade would have to exist first.

  Image

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• EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  egg laying animals came long before chickens, why was that ever hard to figure out for anyone?

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  • kofe@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Well some of us are not only ignorant but had our critical thinking skills to varying levels stunted by shitty education. To me the answer didn’t necessarily matter as long as people agree both exist, but I’m glad to now have an answer grounded in science rather than relying on philosophical musing

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    • EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      but had our critical thinking skills to varying levels stunted by shitty education.

      I’ve also noticed that everyone I went to school with who got good grades is a dunce. But everyone who got shitty grades with me was much easier to talk to.

      I never have to explain in verbose detail what I mean by every fragment of a sentence to someone who got shitty grades in school. I had a principal at one school I went to who was an idiot.

      Every time another group of students stole my hat and there was a coordinated effort to keep it away from me, I had no choice but to go to the principal, because the teachers wouldn’t help me either.

      Every single time this happened, the principal, with zero self awareness would say “what do you mean ____ stole your hat? did you give it to him?” Then I had to explain in vivid detail each thing that happened for 15 minutes, like I was programming a robot-arm in a factory to this idiot with no ability to listen and think.

      George Carlin used to rant about how schools teach kids to just barely be smart enough to pull levers and push buttons, but never to critically think about things or to solve problems they don’t have a pre-planned solution for. and that’s why I hated going to school, as high functioning autistic man, when I was in school, they always wanted me to fit into a cookie-cutter path they set for me, but I never went along with it.

      This one boomer I know refuses to ever use anything except for the official tool you’re supposed to use for each thing. So I ask him, “well if this other pair of plyers does the job, why can’t I just use this one if I can make it work.?” “IT’S NOT MEANT FOR THAT!” with no good reason for not wanting me to help him by using that other pair of plyers that I can make work.

      I quit high school about half way through my 10th grade year one day when literally everyone in the school yelled at me when I tried to talk about literally anything. I just got my stuff out of my locker and walked home.

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• itsonlygeorge@reddthat.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  An egg is technically a single cell. So, eggs came first as those were the first forms of life.

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  • androogee@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Eggs are single cells, but all single cells are not eggs.

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    • HonoraryMancunian@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If they were, we’d be made up of about 30 trillion eggs each

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    • abnv@infosec.pub ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Due to evolution, unicellular became Multicellular.

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• Chapo_is_Red@hexbear.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As a child I was really into dinosaurs and came to this conclusion shocked-dino

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• hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I guess the tree branch needs to start somewhere, but why leave out amphibians?

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  • nxdefiant@startrek.website ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Thats on the branch labeled traitors that leads to paying bills.

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    • hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I don’t get it. Care to explain?

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• Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I love charts without labels and untis.

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  • LostXOR@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This isn’t a graph, it’s a phylogenetic tree. It doesn’t need units or labeled axes (and they wouldn’t make much sense anyways).

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    • Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      So you can’t write dates/millenia on the “y-axis” (time axis)? Since when do turtles exist for example?

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• atyaz@hexbear.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Maybe they meant chicken eggs but I guess the chicken egg is still first in that case

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  • MaeBorowski@hexbear.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah, this is silly (and fun) but avoids the real problem of course. The question can be like you said, “which came first, the chicken or the chicken’s egg?” And for those that still want a literal answer, wikipedia says:

    If the question refers to chicken eggs specifically, the answer is still the egg, but the explanation is more complicated.[8] The process by which the chicken arose through the interbreeding and domestication of multiple species of wild jungle fowl is poorly understood, and the point at which this evolving organism became a chicken is a somewhat arbitrary distinction. Whatever criteria one chooses, an animal nearly identical to the modern chicken (i.e., a proto-chicken) laid a fertilized egg that had DNA making it a modern chicken due to mutations in the mother’s ovum, the father’s sperm, or the fertilised zygote.

    As an alternative, though it’s a bit more of an ungainly mouthful, I like: “which came first, the first species to lay an egg or the egg of the first species to lay an egg?” That one is a bit harder but you might still be able to tease out an answer. That way I think it gets a bit more into the problem of qualitative vs quantitative when you do (which is partly why I say below that this is related to the problem of the heap). Of course it’s really meant to be a philosophical problem anyway, and in that sense, it remains a paradox. It’s a way of making an analogy for a “causation dilemma” and gets at the idea of infinite regress and the paradoxes that brings up. It’s also related to the sorites paradox or the problem of the heap, which actually is an element discussed in Marxist (more because of Engels) dialectics.

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• wischi@programming.dev ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  And now everybody together… C O E V O L U T I O N

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• Donkter@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I thought this was a T-shirt and now I want it on a tshirt

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