Another non-predator mammal with front facing eyes: llamas.
Comment on *confused flatfish noises*
saltesc@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I think that’s specific to mammals. Just off the top of my head…
Invertebrates? No. All out
Fish? No.
Birds? No.
Reptiles? No.
Amphibians? No.
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
FeatherConstrictor@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Are llamas’ eyes not side-facing? That’s what it looks like in photos to me
quediuspayu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
They need them to spit.
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Llamas are dangerous, so if you see one where people are swimming, you shout: Look out, there are llamas!
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
pretty sure they face forwards. That’s what Minecraft ones look like, anyway, and a quick search of real ones look like they have forward-facing eyes
lazyViking@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Source: Minecraft block model is a legendary reply
ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
They’re sideways facing eyes, but a bit diagonal. Definitely not forward facing though. They’re just a bit bulgy.
squaresinger@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Pandas as well. Non-predator but clearly front facing eyes.
notsure@fedia.io 2 weeks ago
...i am withholding all judgments on pandas until my full research has been completed...i heard something on the internet...
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Pandas are descendants of omnivores with a predator streak, them rat fucking their diet to near koala levels of bad doesn’t really factor in yet.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Idk if “descendants of omnivores” counts because then you could exclude a number of critters like pigs for being “descendants of herbivores” and then ‘why do pugs have forward facing eyes?’
The obvious caveat is that pandas at the minimum don’t have selective pressure for side eyes or they have something pressuring stereoscopic vision even more similar to how aquatic animals have less selective pressure for forward facing eyes.
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 2 weeks ago
Or they need it that way to learn kung-fu
Auli@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
But Pandas are bears and haven’t changed much. They eat plants and their guts have not even evolved to do so yet. They are a wonder.
squaresinger@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
They stopped eating meat 3 million years ago. That’s longer ago than the appearance of the first animal of the genus Homo.
pjwestin@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Yeah, but Pandas aren’t herbivores, they’re vegetarians. They’re too slow and clumsy to actually hunt prey, so the only thing they can catch is bamboo (which is the fastest growing plant, so I guess that’s something…sort of…). Anyway, the point is, Pandas as a species are from a family of predators, and they would absolutely eat meat if you gave it to them.
squaresinger@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Pandas stopped eating meat about 3 million years ago. That’s before the first being of the genus Homo appeared. Not Homo Sapiens (that was 300 000 years ago), but Homo Habilis (2.5mio years ago).
If evolution can take us from something that’s barely an ape to humans in that time frame, you’d expect that it can fix an omnivour’s digestive system to work with plants.
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Is this because pandas used to be carnivorous? (they have sharp canine teeth despite pretty much only eating bamboo)
imgcat@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
and humans.
OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Humans are predatory animals.
saltesc@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
By far. We didn’t get to be #1 by fucking around, and we didn’t get to be #1 without all that dominating evolution lingering around. We’re so good at it, we’re predators to ourselves because there’s no prey left to dominate. Every other species dies farmed or as a hobby.
But I can say, that if I were die be prey to something, I’d rather it be to a human. Everything else starts eating you before you’re even dead lol.
imgcat@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
LOL no.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Panda
Bluewing@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
They want your sweater back…
illi@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
I remember there used to be a goat on some island (now extinct) that didn’t have any predators so it evolved forward facing eyes
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
There’s also evidence that people tried to domesticate them, their hooves were trimmed.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Sloth
Auli@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
What sloths are leaf predators.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
marzhall@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Invertebrates? No. All out I invite you to meet the awesome [jumping spider(www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDtlvZGmHYk), whose eyes are very especially needed set up to be forward-facing for depth perception for their jumps, and who hunt other spiders, as well as the wolf spider, who are also a hunting (as opposed to web) spider.
In fact, you can use the chart of spider eye layouts to pretty much identify whether you’re looking at a spider who builds webs and waits or a spider who hunts:
a drawing of different spider faces to their names
Anyone with two big forward-facing eyes is probably looking around for their next meal.
KingGimpicus@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Had a bunch of wolf spiders in the last shop i worked at as a welder. They have eye shine like cats and alligators. It was always easy to tell the wolf spiders from black widows even behind a dusty welding machine because you can see the little wolf spider eyes looking back at you.
monotremata@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Also crabs. I mean, their eyes are often on stalks and more mobile than mammalian eyes, and they’re compound, so they have a very wide field of view, but they’re still often basically in front, and they do apparently provide depth cues for hunting thanks to this.
www.jneurosci.org/content/38/31/6933
It also occurred to me to look up about dragonflies, and it seems they mostly hunt dorsally (which is a pretty viable option if you’re flying). BUT I found this article about Damselflies, which notes that they rely on binocular overlap and line up their prey in front of them. Which is pretty cool.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Horseshoe crabs have nine different types of eyes. Even that tail is essentially a kind of eye, covered with photoreceptors. Not sure of the relevance of this horseshoe crab fact, it’s just fucking interesting.
Tyrq@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Those are some wild gamepad layouts
pjwestin@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Birds? No. Though, even on the side they do often have a tilt toward frontal in a lot of predatory birds. It could be argued…
Birds of prey absolutely have their eyes positioned on the front of their heads. It’s most obvious in owls, since they have the largest eyes and wider faces, but all of them have front-facing eyes for binocular vision.
Typhoon@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Most primates eat fruit or leaves, but have forward facing eyes because they need depth perception for climbing/jumping, not for hunting.
ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Squirrels have eyes on the sides of their heads and they’re pretty fucking good and climbing and jumping. Next theory …
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If a squirrel falls they’re probably not going to squish as hard as a monkey. Lots of scavengers also have forward facing eyes (ex racoons) and pandas notably have forward facing eyes and are herbivorous.
I think the climbing and jumping theory is better than the predator theory on account that it explains why large aquatic animals aren’t selected for close frontal eyes.
Plus many predators (cats notably) do climb and jump. Humans and monkeys also have werd postures that might lead to them falling over easier.
In reality its probably never just one pressure that leads to these kind of evolutions.
Atomic@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
You don’t need a unified theory of why animals have binocular vision.
The biggest threat to a primate isn’t always felines, it’s often other primates. Judging distance to your target is a very beneficial trait for survival if you need to fight them. Which means if you need to survive other primates, it is beneficial to be able to judge distance to other primates. Even if you’re not a predator.
Gorillas might be herbivores. But they are excellent at fighting eachother. And a dead gorilla can’t reproduce.
trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Besides humans, aren’t most apes not prey animals?
Starski@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
What do you mean by prey animals? Animals that prey on others or are you calling them prey themselves? And just because an animal is a predator doesn’t mean there aren’t larger predators that will kill and eat them. Ultimately most apes are omnivores who eat fruit and berries, along with leaves and other shit, but will eat meat and have been known to prey on animals, yet it’s not their main source of food. They’re not apex predators but they aren’t actively prey.
squaresinger@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The same holds true for a lot of animals. There aren’t many purely “vegan” animals. A horse will snack a mouse too if it gets the opportunity.
exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Plus evolutionary history shows plenty of examples of animals switching from pure carnivore to pure herbivore to omnivores in between. All birds are descended from a common carnivorous ancestor, but plenty of birds today subsist mostly on seeds or fruit.
If there is a lot of available biomass to be eaten, nature will find a way and some animal is going to fill that niche. Many of the folivores (herbivores specializing in digesting leaves) that descended from carnivores have to deal with the low nutrient/calorie density of their foods by just eating a lot of it, and have varying levels of microbial symbiosis for helping with that digestion.
trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I am using the same definitions as the meme
Starski@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
Ah, I guess you are but you put it in a different place in your sentence compared to the comic, which confused me at first as it can be interpreted both ways with how you wrote it. Either way, the rest of my comment should still be relevant.
notsure@fedia.io 2 weeks ago
...too bad for the internet, eh?..
imgcat@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
including humans.
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Bats also have forward facing eyes I think (correct me on this please!), but most of them aren’t carnivorous. They eat fruits and bugs and stuff.
illi@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
They eat fruits and bugs and stuff.
Well, if they hunt bugs, they are predators, no?
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Predators yes, carnivores no. Things that eat bugs are insectivores.
Honestly though, almost no mammals are purely carnivorous, herbivorous, or insectivorous. The majority of species will opportunistically eat what is available.
illi@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Yeah, and yiu don’t have to be a carnivore to be a predator.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
I would assume insects would be evolutionarily similar to other types or prey.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Cattail@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Maybe it doesn’t apply ocean animals. Like they would want to see both above and below for their environment, but I’d also think for predators it would be slightly more front facing
k0e3@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
A lot of non mammals other organs to help them perceive. Even aquatic mammals like whales have echolocation. That’s probably why the front facing rule doesn’t apply universally to all animals.
Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Aye-Ayes and Tarsiers have very forward facing eyes, yet eat mostly gruvs in trees.
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
whales and dolphins are mammals, and they have eyes on the side. Don’t think anything preys on them (at least for the full-grown ones, pretty sure baby whales are preyed on)