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What is the difference between an American liberal and a liberal outside the USA?

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Submitted ⁨⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨AfterNova@lemmy.world [bot]⁩ to ⁨nostupidquestions@lemmy.world⁩

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  • dogbert@lemmy.zip ⁨30⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

    American liberals think they’re left wing. European liberals understand they are basically conservatives.

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  • lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com ⁨27⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

    The common denominator of liberalism is the core liberal philosophy of universal individual rights & liberties, consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties), political & legal equality. US modern liberalism primarily refers to social liberalism. Liberalism elsewhere often refers to classical liberalism which more closely corresponds to US libertarianism.

    American versus European usage of liberalism

    Colloquially, liberalism is used differently, in its primary use in different countries. In the United States the general term liberalism almost always refers to modern liberalism. There are some parties in Europe which nominally appeal to social liberalism, with the Beveridge Group faction within the Liberal Democrats, the Danish Social Liberal Party, the Democratic Movement, and the Italian Republican Party. One of the greatest contrasts is between the usage in the United States and usage in Europe and Latin America. According to Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. (writing in 1956), “[l]iberalism in the American usage has little in common with the word as used in the politics of any European country, save possibly Britain.” In Europe, liberalism usually means what is sometimes called classical liberalism, a commitment to limited government, laissez-faire economics. This classical liberalism sometimes more closely corresponds to the American definition of libertarianism, although some distinguish between classical liberalism and libertarianism.

    Liberalism worldwide

    What constitutes a liberal party is highly debatable. In the list below, it is defined as a political party that adheres to the basic principles of political liberalism. This is a broad political current, including left-wing, centrist and right-wing elements. All liberal parties emphasise individual rights, but they differ in their opinion on an active role for the state. This list includes parties of different character, ranging from classical liberalism to social liberalism, conservative liberalism to national liberalism.

    Several conservative and/or Christian-democratic parties, such as the British Conservative Party, Germany’s Christian Democratic Union and Spain’s People’s Party, are also considered to be neoliberal leaning or have strong liberal conservative and/or classical liberal factions, whereas some conservative parties, such as Poland’s Law and Justice and Hungary’s Fidesz, favour more state intervention but also support free-market solutions. Conversely, some social-democratic parties, such as the British Labour Party and the Italian Democratic Party, include liberal elements. Social liberalism and social conservatism are not mutually exclusive, and some parties espouse socially liberal economic policies, while maintaining more socially conservative or traditionalist views on society: examples of this include Finland’s Centre Party (see also Nordic agrarian parties) and Ireland’s Fianna Fáil, both members of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Party (ALDE Party). In the United States, the two major political forces, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, are to some extent, liberal (see Liberalism in the United States and Modern liberalism in the United States).

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    Not all the parties using the “Liberal” or “Freedom” labels are actually liberal. Moreover, some parties, such as the Freedom Party of Austria, were originally liberal, but have since tilted toward a populist direction and abandoned most of the tenets of liberalism. Finally, some parties, such as the United States Republican Party, Australia’s Liberal Party or Norway’s Progress Party are liberal mainly from an economic point of view rather than a social point of view (see economic liberalism, libertarianism and right-libertarianism).

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  • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

    Liberal (US): a moderate conservative.

    Liberal (EU): a moderate right libertarian.

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  • TheUnicornOfPerfidy@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It’s wild to me that almost everyone seems to be mixing up classical liberalism and neoliberalism to a some significant degree; two wildly different paradigms only related by name. The former is defined by the freedom of the individual, the latter by the freedom of markets. The conflation of the two is wildly good marketing from the neolibs.

    Liberal philosophers John Stuart Mill and Harriet Taylor Mill were massive advocates for the abolition of slavery, women’s equality, free speach, worker cooperatives, inheritance tax, etc.

    The father of neolibrolism Milton Friedman believed in unfettered free markets, minimal government, deregulation and monetarism (influencing the economy through the supply of money)

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    • greenbit@lemmy.zip ⁨30⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

      Yes.

      In the US it seems to be conservative capitalist neoliberals probably in the democratic party who are called liberals.

      In the EU it seems to be your description of emancipation, equality, individual freedoms and societal security funded by taxes, basically leftist takes who are liberals.

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  • davidgro@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    To most Americans (including myself before reading into it due to Lemmy) Liberal is simply a synonym of ‘left-wing’ and has no distinction at all from that and other terms like ‘leftist’, ‘progressive’, etc. All of these terms mean exactly “not conservative” - mostly in a social sense.

    My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)

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    • A_norny_mousse@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)

      As a European: this precisely. There are slight variations in terminology: liberalism, libertarian, neoliberal… but nobody reads that as “left”. The “liberty” hinted at is always that of the market.

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      • boonhet@sopuli.xyz ⁨41⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

        In my country the liberals are about both economic and social liberty. They want both gay and heterosexual people to have the freedom to pay for healthcare and education, which currently are free. The conservatives want at least healthcare and potentially education to remain free, but also want only white cishet people to exist. Socdems luckily exist to balance out the idiots.

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    • Hegar@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Back in the 60s, Phil Ochs described a liberal as "10 degrees to the left of center in good times and 10 degrees to the right if it affects them personally".

      I agree that most people understand it to mean anyone left of center, but the meaning of a weak or disingenuous leftist who often sides with the enemies of the left goes back a while.

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      • ruuster13@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        American conservatives have capitalized on denigrating the word “liberal” so thoroughly that using it in a remotely similar vein makes us ignore you immediately.

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      • davidgro@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Interesting. Hadn’t heard that one. (Or the sentiment)

        On a side note, these days I feel like something affecting someone personally means it’s more likely to move them left - see leopards and faces.

        (Unless it’s a tax or regulation, perhaps that’s what Phil was thinking of)

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    • SaraTonin@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      To be more specific on the capitalism front, liberals generally support a well-regulated market which also has safety nets like welfare. As opposed to positions like neoliberalism which supports As opposed to positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.

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      • SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        It drives me nuts when people treat liberals and neoliberals as the same thing.

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  • InvisibleShoe@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Liberalism in America refers to social liberalism. IE: justice, government management of social services(health, education, welfare, infrastructure). In this scenario, the government looking after its citizens.

    Liberalism in the rest of the world refers to Neoliberalism. IE: capitalism on a pedestal, privatization of public services, limited government intervention in all areas(business, labour, environment, health, education). In this scenario, private business and “the free market” determine what is and isn’t good(IE profit is the greatest good).

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    • SaraTonin@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Liberal in the UK definitely doesn’t mean neoliberal

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      • InvisibleShoe@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Not entirely no. " British liberalism is now organised between two schools;

        • the social liberalism of the Liberal Democrats (member LI, ALDE) and their counterpart the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland (member LI, ALDE),
        • and the classical liberalism of the Conservative Party which was adopted in the late 1970s by the late former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher " - en.wikipedia.org/…/Liberalism_in_the_United_Kingd…

        Neoliberalism is a more contemporary version of classical liberalism

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    • starlinguk@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Nope. Some political parties use it as neoliberal but ordinary people don’t.

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  • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Your whole political spectrum is from right to far right to us. There is no liberal or left at all.

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    • dogbert@lemmy.zip ⁨29⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago

      Liberal is right wing

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    • TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      And they still find so much to bicker about. I wonder how European coalition governments look like to Americans.

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    • Tedesche@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

      If you think that, then you don’t know much about our political spectrum. Or—more likely—you’re just trolling.

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  • shittydwarf@piefed.social ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    American liberals are still right wing, they don’t have a real left

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    • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You’re looking at the wrong axis.

      American liberals mostly - though not exclusively - tend to be capitalistic. American conservatives are definitely capitalistic. Their disagreement largely centers around “should we or should we not make any attempt whatsoever to be egalitarian”

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    • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      for the sake of learning, in what ways? As a non american I just get fed the stereotype that american liberals are blue haired lesbians who yell at everyone

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      • EonNShadow@pawb.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        There’s another commenter who posted better definitions just after you did.

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      • guynamedzero@piefed.zeromedia.vip ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Nah that’s just the stereotype for feminists (which is not at ALL representative of feminism)

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  • garth@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    In the broader world of politics, “liberal” usually refers to “classical liberalism”: representative democracy, a capitalist market economy with limited government involvement, and an emphasis on individual liberty over communal well-being. This is the ideology the US was founded upon (for white people, at least) and that it still largely embraces. Both major US political parties are liberal parties.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

    Within the US, the user of the term is very different. Republicans use the word “liberal” as a pejorative to describe anyone even slightly to their left. You could be a progressive, a social democrat, a communist, an anarchist, or simply a pragmatic individual who wants to fund libraries and public schools, and you would be branded a “lib.”

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  • swordgeek@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    One difference is that U.S. liberals are still likely to believe in American exceptionalism.

    Americans almost universally believe they are fundamentally the best - moral leaders of the world, even if they have temporarily lost their way.

    The great protest folk singers from the U.S., such as Woody and ArlonGuthrie, the Seegers, and so many others, feel that they’re fighting the good fight to bring the U.S. back to where it was meant to be: the ‘leader of the free world.’

    It’s an infectuous ego that taints the U.S. psyche on a deep and profound level.

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  • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The problem here is twofold: First, the American political spectrum lies to the right of that of most of the first world (though many are playing catch up now), so Americans feel the need to distinguish between liberals and conservatives far more than between liberals and anti-capitalist leftists, therefore the latter two get tossed together. Second, "liberal" in America includes social liberals, which in the rest of the world would be called some variety of social democrat, but it can also refers to classical liberals (with the right marketing, i.e Harris and the Clintons), again making distinguishing between these groups difficult. So the distinction you want is the one between social liberals and classical liberals, which is as follows:

    Social liberalism[a] or progressive liberalism[9] is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights, as opposed to classical liberalism which favors limited government and an overall more laissez-faire style of governance. While both are committed to personal freedoms, social liberalism places greater emphasis on the role of government in addressing social inequalities and ensuring public welfare.

    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

    Classical liberalism (sometimes called English liberalism[1][2][3]) is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.[4] Classical liberalism, contrary to liberal branches like social liberalism, looks more negatively on social policies, taxation and the state involvement in the lives of individuals, and it advocates deregulation.

    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

    They're both liberals in that they both believe in capitalism and a free market economy, but they differ on the details of what the government ought to do or not to do within said free market economy. So to directly answer your question: In North America "liberal" usually refers to social liberals, while in the rest of the world it refers to classical liberals.

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  • Sharkticon@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    There’s no difference, liberals in America just like to lie to both themselves and the rest of us about their motives and their actual aims. The results however are always the same.

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  • frisbird@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    American conservatives are liberals by definition, and liberals are right wing globally speaking

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  • ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    They don’t use the word “liberal” to define whatever American liberals are supposed to be (not too xenophobic imperialists?), they don’t use the word at all tbh. Idk if it’s an Anglo thing or a particularly American one, though.

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    • frisbird@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It’s because the default, globally, is now liberal. Liberalism was the movement away from monarchism. Conservatism was the movement to preserve monarchism in the face of liberalism. American liberals are liberal. American conservatives are also liberal. The alternatives are monarchist/conservative (generally only exist in countries with royalty still), communist/socialist, and anarchist (which has both right and left flavors, and even liberal flavors)

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      • yakko@feddit.uk ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Bold of you to assert that the American right isn’t effectively a monarchist movement. Trump and his hangers-on have been stridently in favour of a presidency that is king in everything but name, and they have shown an abiding disdain for democracy since at least the Reagan era - though those dots connect backwards as far as you please.

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      • ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Thanks for the explanation!

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