What is the difference between an American liberal and a liberal outside the USA?

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• davidgro@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  To most Americans (including myself before reading into it due to Lemmy) Liberal is simply a synonym of ‘left-wing’ and has no distinction at all from that and other terms like ‘leftist’, ‘progressive’, etc. All of these terms mean exactly “not conservative” - mostly in a social sense.

  My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)

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  • A_norny_mousse@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    My (weak) understanding is that outside the US, Liberal is a (mostly) economic position - specifically one supportive of capitalism, which both major parties in the US are. (With slight policy differences.)

    As a European: this precisely. There are slight variations in terminology: liberalism, libertarian, neoliberal… but nobody reads that as “left”. The “liberty” hinted at is always that of the market.

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    • boonhet@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      In my country the liberals are about both economic and social liberty. They want both gay and heterosexual people to have the freedom to pay for healthcare and education, which currently are free. The conservatives want at least healthcare and potentially education to remain free, but also want only white cishet people to exist. Socdems luckily exist to balance out the idiots.

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  • Hegar@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Back in the 60s, Phil Ochs described a liberal as "10 degrees to the left of center in good times and 10 degrees to the right if it affects them personally".

    I agree that most people understand it to mean anyone left of center, but the meaning of a weak or disingenuous leftist who often sides with the enemies of the left goes back a while.

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    • davidgro@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Interesting. Hadn’t heard that one. (Or the sentiment)

      On a side note, these days I feel like something affecting someone personally means it’s more likely to move them left - see leopards and faces.

      (Unless it’s a tax or regulation, perhaps that’s what Phil was thinking of)

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    • ruuster13@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      American conservatives have capitalized on denigrating the word “liberal” so thoroughly that using it in a remotely similar vein makes us ignore you immediately.

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  • SaraTonin@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    To be more specific on the capitalism front, liberals generally support a well-regulated market which also has safety nets like welfare. As opposed to positions like neoliberalism which supports As opposed to positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.

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    • SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It drives me nuts when people treat liberals and neoliberals as the same thing.

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    • handsoffmydata@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      positions like neoliberalism, which supports laissez-faire markets and opposes welfare.

      Neoliberalism certainly supports welfare, ie every single corporate bailout since the 1980s. Neoliberalism is the natural conclusion to liberal democracies that fail to address class stratification properly and allow massive imbalance of power to grow so large the whole system becomes irreparable.

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• InvisibleShoe@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Liberalism in America refers to social liberalism. IE: justice, government management of social services(health, education, welfare, infrastructure). In this scenario, the government looking after its citizens.

  Liberalism in the rest of the world refers to Neoliberalism. IE: capitalism on a pedestal, privatization of public services, limited government intervention in all areas(business, labour, environment, health, education). In this scenario, private business and “the free market” determine what is and isn’t good(IE profit is the greatest good).

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  • SaraTonin@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Liberal in the UK definitely doesn’t mean neoliberal

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    • InvisibleShoe@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Not entirely no. " British liberalism is now organised between two schools;

      • the social liberalism of the Liberal Democrats (member LI, ALDE) and their counterpart the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland (member LI, ALDE),
      • and the classical liberalism of the Conservative Party which was adopted in the late 1970s by the late former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher " - en.wikipedia.org/…/Liberalism_in_the_United_Kingd…

      Neoliberalism is a more contemporary version of classical liberalism

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  • starlinguk@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Nope. Some political parties use it as neoliberal but ordinary people don’t.

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• TheUnicornOfPerfidy@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It’s wild to me that almost everyone seems to be mixing up classical liberalism and neoliberalism to a some significant degree; two wildly different paradigms only related by name. The former is defined by the freedom of the individual, the latter by the freedom of markets. The conflation of the two is wildly good marketing from the neolibs.

  Liberal philosophers John Stuart Mill and Harriet Taylor Mill were massive advocates for the abolition of slavery, women’s equality, free speach, worker cooperatives, inheritance tax, etc.

  The father of neolibrolism Milton Friedman believed in unfettered free markets, minimal government, deregulation and monetarism (influencing the economy through the supply of money)

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  • Nemo@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s so frustrating. Neoliberalism is explicitly a postliberal ideology.

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  • greenbit@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yes.

    In the US it seems to be conservative capitalist neoliberals probably in the democratic party who are called liberals.

    In the EU it seems to be your description of emancipation, equality, individual freedoms and societal security funded by taxes, basically leftist takes who are liberals.

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  • FlyingSpaceCow@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I’m started to become convinced that there is a coordinated effort to misdefine the term liberal among the political left in order to divide us.

    I see supposed progressives dedicating significant amounts of time demonizing liberals (when they mean neoliberal), despite the fact that they would mostly agree on policy if that was the topic of conversation.

    Enacting progressive taxation, punishing white collar crime, establishing strong environmental protections, establishing a strong social safety net, ensuring high quality universal healthcare, enforcing anti-trust legislation, and enacting electoral finance reforms are all things that liberals support… but instead they are often shouted down by progressives online for being status quo capitalists?

    We’re fight the rise of literal fascists right now, but instead of joining forces we keep arguing about labels among people we agree with.

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    • epicthundercat@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Imperfect allies are still allies. We need unification against the ultra wealthy.

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    • Don_alForno@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Enacting progressive taxation, punishing white collar crime, establishing strong environmental protections, establishing a strong social safety net, ensuring high quality universal healthcare, enforcing anti-trust legislation, and enacting electoral finance reforms are all things that liberals support

      Those are all things that the liberals of old supported. But the parties that call themselves “liberal” today are usually strictly neoliberal. So that’s what people have come to associate with the term.

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• dogbert@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  American liberals think they’re left wing. European liberals understand they are basically conservatives.

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  • SolidShake@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    When I say I’m a liberal I take it seriously by definition. And I think conservatives do too because when you see someone on social media with a nose ring and dyed hair someone will call “a dumbass liberal” and all I can think of is “yes, they’re using their free will to dye their hair whatever color they want. How is that bad”?

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  • Ach@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Nah man. The democratic party is billed as left wing. Some Americans believe that. A ton of us are actually left wing but don’t have great options to vote for.

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    • dogbert@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You’re either a liberal or left wing you can’t be both

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• communism@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  In the US, they use “liberal” to mean “left-wing” (and their left wing is also most countries’ right-wing or centre).

  Liberalism actually refers to, essentially, the ideology of the bourgeoisie: of individual freedoms, markets, inalienable property rights, etc. In most countries with a political party that calls itself “liberal”, these parties will be centre to right wing and generally support a “freer” market as well as some social freedoms.

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• shittydwarf@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  American liberals are still right wing, they don’t have a real left

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  • TheReanuKeeves@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    for the sake of learning, in what ways? As a non american I just get fed the stereotype that american liberals are blue haired lesbians who yell at everyone

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    • EonNShadow@pawb.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      There’s another commenter who posted better definitions just after you did.

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    • guynamedzero@piefed.zeromedia.vip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Nah that’s just the stereotype for feminists (which is not at ALL representative of feminism)

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  • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You’re looking at the wrong axis.

    American liberals mostly - though not exclusively - tend to be capitalistic. American conservatives are definitely capitalistic. Their disagreement largely centers around “should we or should we not make any attempt whatsoever to be egalitarian”

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• Strider@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Your whole political spectrum is from right to far right to us. There is no liberal or left at all.

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  • dogbert@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Liberal is right wing

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    • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Okay now, this is surprising. Either your statement is way off or the definition of liberal is wildly different between US and EU.

      But liberal is definitely not right but center between left and right. But ad said, maybe that’s the European view.

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  • TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    And they still find so much to bicker about. I wonder how European coalition governments look like to Americans.

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  • Tedesche@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If you think that, then you don’t know much about our political spectrum. Or—more likely—you’re just trolling.

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    • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Wow. First, no I’m not trolling. But we have a bit more open view in Europe. You’ve just got all corporate control with a lot of propaganda in the US. If you’re open to it, I invite you on research on countries with more than 2 (and even almost identical) parties and without backing of the rich.

      Yes I might be off about your spectrum, but the last deeper research I read was that over the decades your two right wing options narrowed down even more and by now they’re indistinguishable (for the common folk. Of course it would be better not to have trump but you have more political issues than that).

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• ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Liberal (US): a moderate conservative.

  Liberal (EU): a moderate right libertarian.

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  • VitoRobles@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    For clarity: The Democratic party in the US, based on their talking points, is considered right wing in much of the world. The conservative party in the US, based on their talking points, is considered far right wing in much of the world.

    In the US: We have “actual” left wing politicians, who frequently are shouted down and forced to align themselves with Democrats to get any sort of movement.

    The two party system works to keep those two teams going.

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• garth@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  In the broader world of politics, “liberal” usually refers to “classical liberalism”: representative democracy, a capitalist market economy with limited government involvement, and an emphasis on individual liberty over communal well-being. This is the ideology the US was founded upon (for white people, at least) and that it still largely embraces. Both major US political parties are liberal parties.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

  Within the US, the user of the term is very different. Republicans use the word “liberal” as a pejorative to describe anyone even slightly to their left. You could be a progressive, a social democrat, a communist, an anarchist, or simply a pragmatic individual who wants to fund libraries and public schools, and you would be branded a “lib.”

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• NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The problem here is twofold: First, the American political spectrum lies to the right of that of most of the first world (though many are playing catch up now), so Americans feel the need to distinguish between liberals and conservatives far more than between liberals and anti-capitalist leftists, therefore the latter two get tossed together. Second, "liberal" in America includes social liberals, which in the rest of the world would be called some variety of social democrat, but it can also refers to classical liberals (with the right marketing, i.e Harris and the Clintons), again making distinguishing between these groups difficult. So the distinction you want is the one between social liberals and classical liberals, which is as follows:

  Social liberalism[a] or progressive liberalism[9] is a political philosophy and variety of liberalism that endorses social justice, social services, a mixed economy, and the expansion of civil and political rights, as opposed to classical liberalism which favors limited government and an overall more laissez-faire style of governance. While both are committed to personal freedoms, social liberalism places greater emphasis on the role of government in addressing social inequalities and ensuring public welfare.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

  Classical liberalism (sometimes called English liberalism[1][2][3]) is a political tradition and a branch of liberalism that advocates free market and laissez-faire economics and civil liberties under the rule of law, with special emphasis on individual autonomy, limited government, economic freedom, political freedom and freedom of speech.[4] Classical liberalism, contrary to liberal branches like social liberalism, looks more negatively on social policies, taxation and the state involvement in the lives of individuals, and it advocates deregulation.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

  They're both liberals in that they both believe in capitalism and a free market economy, but they differ on the details of what the government ought to do or not to do within said free market economy. So to directly answer your question: In North America "liberal" usually refers to social liberals, while in the rest of the world it refers to classical liberals.

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• swordgeek@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  One difference is that U.S. liberals are still likely to believe in American exceptionalism.

  Americans almost universally believe they are fundamentally the best - moral leaders of the world, even if they have temporarily lost their way.

  The great protest folk singers from the U.S., such as Woody and ArlonGuthrie, the Seegers, and so many others, feel that they’re fighting the good fight to bring the U.S. back to where it was meant to be: the ‘leader of the free world.’

  It’s an infectuous ego that taints the U.S. psyche on a deep and profound level.

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• lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The common denominator of liberalism is the core liberal philosophy of universal individual rights & liberties, consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties), political & legal equality. US modern liberalism primarily refers to social liberalism. Liberalism elsewhere often refers to classical liberalism which more closely corresponds to US libertarianism.

  American versus European usage of liberalism

  Colloquially, liberalism is used differently, in its primary use in different countries. In the United States the general term liberalism almost always refers to modern liberalism. There are some parties in Europe which nominally appeal to social liberalism, with the Beveridge Group faction within the Liberal Democrats, the Danish Social Liberal Party, the Democratic Movement, and the Italian Republican Party. One of the greatest contrasts is between the usage in the United States and usage in Europe and Latin America. According to Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. (writing in 1956), “[l]iberalism in the American usage has little in common with the word as used in the politics of any European country, save possibly Britain.” In Europe, liberalism usually means what is sometimes called classical liberalism, a commitment to limited government, laissez-faire economics. This classical liberalism sometimes more closely corresponds to the American definition of libertarianism, although some distinguish between classical liberalism and libertarianism.

  Liberalism worldwide

  What constitutes a liberal party is highly debatable. In the list below, it is defined as a political party that adheres to the basic principles of political liberalism. This is a broad political current, including left-wing, centrist and right-wing elements. All liberal parties emphasise individual rights, but they differ in their opinion on an active role for the state. This list includes parties of different character, ranging from classical liberalism to social liberalism, conservative liberalism to national liberalism.

  Several conservative and/or Christian-democratic parties, such as the British Conservative Party, Germany’s Christian Democratic Union and Spain’s People’s Party, are also considered to be neoliberal leaning or have strong liberal conservative and/or classical liberal factions, whereas some conservative parties, such as Poland’s Law and Justice and Hungary’s Fidesz, favour more state intervention but also support free-market solutions. Conversely, some social-democratic parties, such as the British Labour Party and the Italian Democratic Party, include liberal elements. Social liberalism and social conservatism are not mutually exclusive, and some parties espouse socially liberal economic policies, while maintaining more socially conservative or traditionalist views on society: examples of this include Finland’s Centre Party (see also Nordic agrarian parties) and Ireland’s Fianna Fáil, both members of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Party (ALDE Party). In the United States, the two major political forces, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, are to some extent, liberal (see Liberalism in the United States and Modern liberalism in the United States).

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  Not all the parties using the “Liberal” or “Freedom” labels are actually liberal. Moreover, some parties, such as the Freedom Party of Austria, were originally liberal, but have since tilted toward a populist direction and abandoned most of the tenets of liberalism. Finally, some parties, such as the United States Republican Party, Australia’s Liberal Party or Norway’s Progress Party are liberal mainly from an economic point of view rather than a social point of view (see economic liberalism, libertarianism and right-libertarianism).

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• frisbird@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  American conservatives are liberals by definition, and liberals are right wing globally speaking

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• Sharkticon@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  There’s no difference, liberals in America just like to lie to both themselves and the rest of us about their motives and their actual aims. The results however are always the same.

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• ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  They don’t use the word “liberal” to define whatever American liberals are supposed to be (not too xenophobic imperialists?), they don’t use the word at all tbh. Idk if it’s an Anglo thing or a particularly American one, though.

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  • frisbird@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s because the default, globally, is now liberal. Liberalism was the movement away from monarchism. Conservatism was the movement to preserve monarchism in the face of liberalism. American liberals are liberal. American conservatives are also liberal. The alternatives are monarchist/conservative (generally only exist in countries with royalty still), communist/socialist, and anarchist (which has both right and left flavors, and even liberal flavors)

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    • yakko@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Bold of you to assert that the American right isn’t effectively a monarchist movement. Trump and his hangers-on have been stridently in favour of a presidency that is king in everything but name, and they have shown an abiding disdain for democracy since at least the Reagan era - though those dots connect backwards as far as you please.

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    • ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Thanks for the explanation!

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• False@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The term originally meant things like free market economies, being able to vote, implementing civil liberties like ending slavery and serfdom.

  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

  Modern day it has different meanings depending on which country you’re talking about.

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• bossito@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  In Portugal the liberal party is a right-wing party ± socially progressive. But economically very right wing. So a liberal in Portugal is perceived as someone probably well off and urban.

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• fodor@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It all depends who you ask. There are no fixed definitions, not globally. That’s why policies are important points for grounding.

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