Superhero stories have become less about saving people and more about fighting villains.

Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Grimreaper@sopuli.xyz⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

I know not every superhero story is the same, but I feel like recent superhero media has moved away from showing heroes actually saving people. Even vigilantes like Batman and Daredevil rescue civilians—they’re not just crime fighters. Superheroes may not be realistic, but they’ve always prioritized saving lives.

That’s one reason I like The Flash on the CW—it balanced both saving people and crime fighting, even if the crime-fighting usually came first. Superman & Lois does this even better. Almost every episode shows Superman stopping disasters or accidents, not just punching villains.

Superheroes aren’t just super-powered cops, soldiers, or secret agents. They should also be part-time super-firefighters. Shows like 9-1-1 and Chicago Fire make me wish we had more of those rescue scenes—but with superheroes. Not every episode has to be about saving the whole city.

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j4k3@piefed.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Nearly all stories told are reflective of the propaganda culture of the era. Justifying the cult of billionaire exceptionalism has been the theme for a long time.

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- shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yes! I see it in horror movies most clearly, a mirror to our fears, at least after the fact.
  
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- TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  At least Batman and iron man fit the description. What about the others then? I can’t think of many superheroes who happen to be wealthy.
  
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  - WanderingThoughts@europe.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    If they’re not wealthy it’s usually individuals that are in some way special and exceptional because they have a power by birth, accident or because of a rare doohickey.
    
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- Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Funny. Now you got me thinking. In real life, I wouldn’t be rooting for an eccentric Billionaire who thinks he’s a superhero, but when I compare the guy with no super powers to Mr. “I can pretty much do whatever I want and I’m practically indestructible” he feels like an underdog and a whole lot cooler.
  
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NONE_dc@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
THIS, EXACTLY THIS.

I find it strange to call today’s supers “heroes” when the least they do is help others. They look more like guys with superpowers beating each other up, more like Japanese Shonnen than anything else (mind you, I like Shonnen, but there’s a limit).

That’s why I love that in The Batman (2022) the climax is seeing Batman saving civilians, the same with James Gunn’s Superman.

I WANT TO SEE MORE SUPERHEROES BEING HEROIC, DAMN IT.

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- NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  *Shonen. That is all.
  
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  - guynamedzero@piefed.zeromedia.vip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Isn’t it shounen?
    
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  - NONE_dc@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Fair. Done.
    
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- JayGray91@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I recently watched that Superman movie and liked it. I couldn’t figure out exactly why, but I think it is because he’s helping others.
  
  I was a bit hesitant prior because of MCU fatigue, but I’m glad I watched it. MCU ended for me at whenever Thanos was truly defeated. I can’t even remember the movie.
  
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themeatbridge@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
In project management, we call it “scope creep.” Day one, the job is to use your newfound powers for good. Maybe stop a mugging. Day two, catch a bad guy. Day 3, try to balance life and your secret identity while foiling a bank heist. Day 200, you’re negotiating with an interdimensional cosmic deity for the survival of the Universe by demonstrating feats of strength and fortitude.

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zwerg@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’ve always felt that superhero stories reduce problems to something that can be solved through violence and, for that reason, dont really like them. After a while, the plots all seem the same, too.

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- cRazi_man@europe.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Jessica Jones season 1 was good in this regard. A problem and a villain that can’t easily be handled by just throwing punches.
  
  The Watchmen is another good one that has less focus on just punching bad guys.
  
  Completely agree that it is problematic that when your basic story is about super strong individuals, then the only story you will write is about problems that can be solved with violence. No one wants to watch a movie of the Hulk doing shifts to rotate a turbine to generate clean electricity.
  
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  - zwerg@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I did enjoy Jessica, so yeah, there are a few bright spots in the genre. The last but one Joker movie was worth watching too, but… so many Batman movies that seem kind of the same.
    
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- Wolf314159@startrek.website ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There is a reason that I have fallen asleep during the extended 3rd act fight scene in every single god damn marvel movie since Mark Ruffalo became the Hulk.
  
  They all turn into the same movie, with the same fight. And these super long fights all seem to be surprisingly light on showing any of the actual real world impacts of such violence. Nobody ever gets seriously hurt unless the plot needs more sacrifice. But even when they do, the injuries mostly happen off camera and the blood never flows or spurts, it just instantly appears as makeup. It’s really giving people a deep rooted and totally unfounded sense that violence both solves every problem (it doesn’t) and does so bloodlessly (it doesn’t). At least Batman knows he’s not a hero.
  
  But really, the DC universe isn’t much better. Think about how shocking a little bit of blood at the beginning of the new Superman movie was, before they basically destroy metropolis (which was rather expected and mundane). And then they only show the tiny fraction of people personally saved by Superman, not the countless mangled corpses buried under rubble. This may be why the public has trouble confronting the realities of war and violence.
  
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  - LemmyThinkAboutIt@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I think that’s why I really like Invincible. I know it’s not live action superheroes, but I think it does a good job of showing how much destruction and devastation these superhero fights cause. I’m not big on Marvel or DC, but I do have a soft spot for Batman.
    
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  - shawn1122@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Marvel has been following a formula since Avengers Infinity War, arguably before that.
    
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- TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Don’t even get me started on ridiculous ones; like Spider man becoming a literally a spider, then felt an instinct to come up to the Spider Queen offering himself to be eaten, then the Spider Queen’s stomach burst open only for a new and shiny Peter Parker/Spiderman come out alive as if he had never become a spider. Then, there is Batman becoming addicted to drugs and telling Alfred to lock him up in the Batcave for weeks to detox.
  
  This is why I generally only read critically acclaimed plot lines and stories than having a general comic interests.
  
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- joshthewaster@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It’s not just superheroes. There are so many movies that boil down to whoever punches harder wins and it’s always the good guy. I find myself asking, *is this a punching movie" quite a lot. They all try and spin it to be about family or overcoming the odds or even try to blur the line between good and evil. Unfortunately in the end the protagonist punches harder and the story ends, “zzzzz”.
  
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electric@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Have you watched Thunderbolts and the new Superman? They do actually rescue people (Superman way more).

I was thinking in the theater while watching Thunderbolts: “Huh, a scene where the heroes are rescuing people? I haven’t seen that in a long time.”

Superman even saved a squirrel. 🤩

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ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Villains sell toys and merch. You can’t make an action figure of the public

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- andallthat@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  “Not with that attitude, you can’t!” -Lego
  
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obsoleteacct@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is the cop vs firefighter superhero discussion.

Batman is a cop. The very DNA of the character is almost entirely about fighting crime. His origin starts with a violent crime. Sure he’ll save people (the end of the last movie he saves people from a flood) but mostly he’s working on crime.

Superman works best as a firefighter. He’s rescuing people, controlling and mitigating damage, etc… His origin story is a global catastrophe. He will get into fights, but mostly in service of mitigating damage. He will stop crime, but mostly in service of safety. His main villain isn’t a guy who can fight him (generally speaking).

Most characters and stories have a bit of each.

From a screenwriting perspective, an antagonist can provide escalation and give a voice to the challenges the protagonist faces. It’s just a very good tool. A Batman movie where he’s just getting people out of a burning building (for example) might work, but it would feel off somehow.

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- MajorasTerribleFate@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Survivor of crime becomes crime-fighter, survivor of catastrophe saves people from disasters.
  
  “Be the person you needed when you were younger” feels applicable.
  
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Daemnyz@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You should read Parahumans:Worm by Wildbow. The best superhero story I have ever read, and it’s completely free! :)

The variety and use cases for all the different powers are especially interesting.

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- turmacar@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Worm also has far and away the best in-world explanation of why everyone puts up with the cops and robbers BS as well. It’s just so freakin good.
  
  I just hope at some point they’ll be able to reformat/release it as an ebook or something. I know a lot of people get turned off by it being on wordpress. ( I know there’s at least one unofficial one but still. )
  
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- MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  !worm@lemmy.blahaj.zone
  
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IWW4@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
[deleted]
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- janNatan@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Which is a pity, because they do in the comics. Kitty and Nightcrawler are especially good at saving trapped people.
  
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  - IWW4@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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psx_crab@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I guess that’s why people like spiderman most? His constant struggle with the villain because he need to juggle between beating villain and saving civilians. If he just went anti-hero he’s pretty much formidable.

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- shawn1122@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It helps that he starts as a normal guy / kid, not ridiculously rich or an alien. And that he’s not overpowered.
  
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TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
What about villains then? Are they still all about bank heists or murdering everyone in the city, or have they shifted to hunting superheroes?

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- squaresinger@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There’s now story points about villains created by the superheroes who’s entire mission is to kill the superheroes in revenge.
  
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  - TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Oh wow. The whole superhero genre is really evolving in a strange direction.
    
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Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I just hate the trend that people want to make villains more generic evil. like how much shit ultraman got for the prescreening when he hits krypto thats actively fighting him. HES A VILLAIN, HES NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD.

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LordCrom@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Eh, most of the old school titles are just too ‘Soap Opera ish’ for me. It’s was supposed to be action and adventure and mystery with good art. Last 2 decades, it’s become people coming back from the dead, clones, ridiculous story lines that have nothing to do with the original character.

It’s ridiculous.

Indie books and limited series are my go to now. Even those start to run out of gas if they are kept around too long.

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SereneSadie@lemmy.myserv.one ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Superman and Lois.

Almost every episode has a scene where he flies off to help people across the globe.

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ChonkyOwlbear@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I like how Invincible addresses this. He tries to save people but it always ends disastrously because normal people break really easily when handled by someone with super strength and speed. His best bet is to take out the villain that is the source of danger.

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VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This has been a problem for far, far, longer than you think. The silver age definitely had it, the golden age probably did, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it cropped up in the proto-superhero stories, like Zorro. It’s a consequence of having a long-form story where the narrative’s status quo isn’t allowed to meaningfully change and characters either aren’t allowed to die or aren’t allowed to stay dead. Recurring antagonists also can have much richer characterization and more complex relationships with the protagonists, which makes writing stories about them more appealing the more often they appear.

The usual trajectory for a new superhero or new incarnation of an existing superhero is to start off with street-level problems, then get a nemesis that has strong ties to those street level problems, then have the dynamic between the two grow in prominence to eclipse all other parts of the plot. The Joker, for instance, always starts off as either a mob boss with a gimmick or a serial killer with a gimmick, not far removed from the mundane crime Batman always starts with, but always winds up with a fixation on Batman and spawns stories designed as some commentary on Batman’s no-killing rule. Again and again and again, dozens of times over the decades.

Why? Because the dynamic between the two characters tends to be fascinating and results in audience engagement.

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sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
there was a Superman comic about him getting cancer and dying. really good, bout the only superhero stuff I liked

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FerretyFever0@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Invincible has some of that. Going out of his way to save people at the cost of his personal life. Lots of fighting and gore ofc, but still seems a lot more heroic than a lot of Marvel heroes atp.

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- MaggiWuerze@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  He also reflects on the people he couldn’t save or that the hurt while trying to do good.
  
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kameecoding@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I recommend too good videos about superhero movies.

1 - Defenders of the Status Quo

youtu.be/LpitmEnaYeU

2 - The people vs Clark Kent

youtu.be/xLUvR8zKbh0

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