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Scientists in Japan develop plastic that dissolves in seawater within hours
Submitted 2 weeks ago by floofloof@lemmy.ca to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Armok_the_bunny@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Looks like it’s not an issue fortunately.
Aida said the new material is as strong as petroleum-based plastics but breaks down into its original components when exposed to salt. Those components can then be further processed by naturally occurring bacteria, thereby avoiding generating microplastics that can harm aquatic life and enter the food chain.
sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Yeah I reacted to the title and then read the article and edited lol
anomnom@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
So using this for frozen foods, or takeaway containers isn’t advised. Those are basically all sodium.
Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
It dissolves…but into what? Sounds like a recipe for a petroleum salt water mix that’s probably just as toxic as melted plastic, unless all the petroleum is removed.
setsubyou@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It doesn’t seem to be based on petroleum, since they’re explicitly comparing it to petroleum-based plastics…
There also are other non-petroleum based plastics that dissolve in water. This part is not new. E.g. polyvinyl alcohol is used widely.
What’s new about this one is that it specifically needs salt to dissolve and they claim it’s otherwise relatively sturdy. So maybe it could be used instead of pet bottles for drinks?
Munkisquisher@lemmy.nz 2 weeks ago
There’s a lot of sodium in most fizzy drinks, wonder if that rules them out for this. Or does it have to be sodium chloride specifically?
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
For anyone wondering about where, just as an example, polyvinyl is: Polyvinyl acetate (i.e. PVA) is the stuff that wood glue is typically made out of. It’s also the binder used for those bird seed bells.
SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
Instant micro plastics: just add seawater!
notabot@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
It’s a bit of a stretch calling it a plastic, as it’s not petroleum based from what I’ve read.
Munkisquisher@lemmy.nz 2 weeks ago
Is that necessary for plastic? The name comes from the Greek for “to mould”. For me, anything that makes long chain mouldable polymers is a plastic. Milk makes Casein or Galalith plastic, PLA is commonly made of corn. There’s a ton of bamboo fabrics that are essentially nylon made from cellulose.
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
This sounds borderline miraculous, and I have a feeling there’s bound to be a catch. I hope not, but I’m just too cynical.
hperrin@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
The catch is that it’s useless in most plastics applications, where you really don’t want it to dissolve easily. Probably more catches, but that’s the one I see right away.
RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Also probably gonna turn out it dissolves into jsmaller plastics, perfectly sized for penetrating the blood-brain-barrier.
embed_me@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
It dissolves with salt. Our sweat will melt it
Chivera@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Will that make it easier for our bodies to absorb it?
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
Ah, of course. Although, they did mention coatings to protect the material, but it does sound like it will be more fragile than existing plastic.
Sixtyforce@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
The catch would be the reactor. An EVA type of plastic reactor can output more than 12 tons per hour these days.
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It just accelerated the microplastic pipeline.
atlien51@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
And are we gonna start using this on a mainstream scale?
BuboScandiacus@mander.xyz 2 weeks ago
chorus NO !
atlien51@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
Ok, back to non~biodegradable plastics and fuck this innovation
TheRealKuni@midwest.social 2 weeks ago
We use plenty of biodegradable plastics. They’re not always the correct solution. You wouldn’t want an airplane biodegrading, for example.
atlien51@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
I’d love that actually. While I’m flying preferably
supercriticalcheese@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
they might not be even biodegradable, not unless they separated which is impossible to do
ExtraPartsLeft@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I think some of y’all are missing a lot of packaging use cases other than food. But even in the food sector, there are dry things like pasta, beans, and rice that don’t have salt in them. If it really is as strong as a petroleum plastic for these items, it could eliminate tons of micro plastic.
MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I’ve seen rice sold just in the cardboard box already.
ExtraPartsLeft@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Yes, and flour comes in a paper bag. It doesn’t stop manufacturers from trying to protect their product from incidental moisture contact.
A company who already packs their product in plastic is going to have a much easier time switching to something like this than changing their whole packing line out for box packing machines.
parpol@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
The material can be used like regular plastic when coated,
Coated with what? If you say PFAS, this is worse than microplastics.
aesthelete@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
What does it dissolve into? 🪿 Wait, what does it dissolve into? 🗣️ 🪿
rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
From the article:
Aida said the new material is as strong as petroleum-based plastics but breaks down into its original components when exposed to salt. Those components can then be further processed by naturally occurring bacteria, thereby avoiding generating microplastics that can harm aquatic life and enter the food chain.
As salt is also present in soil, a piece about five centimetres (two inches) in size disintegrates on land after over 200 hours, he added.
The material can be used like regular plastic when coated, and the team are focusing their current research on the best coating methods, Aida said. The plastic is non-toxic, non-flammable, and does not emit carbon dioxide, he added.
So I think the next thing the goose wants to know is, what’s it being coated with?
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Is it made of snails?
(/s, in case anyone wants to take that seriously)
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
That was my first thought, a tide pod also rapidly dissolves in sea water, we shouldn’t be dumping those in the ocean though.
Belgdore@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
But then how will we maintain the ocean breeze scent?
MuteDog@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It dissolves into salt water.
Except it doesn’t dissolve, this is not the term they should be using, you can’t just dry out the water and get the plastic back. It breaks down into other things. I’m pretty sure an ocean full of dissolved plastic would be a way worse ecological disaster than the current microplastic problem…
I’ve seen like 3-4 articles about this now and they all use the term dissolve and it’s pissing me off.
AmbitiousProcess@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
This seems like it could be a viable replacement for many plastics, but it isn't he silver bullet I feel that the article is acting as if it is.
From the linked article in the post:
the new material is as strong as petroleum-based plastics but breaks down into its original components when exposed to salt.
Those components can then be further processed by naturally occurring bacteria, thereby avoiding generating microplastics
The plastic is non-toxic, non-flammable, and does not emit carbon dioxide, he added.
This is great. Good stuff. Wonderful.
From another article (this shows that this isn't as recent, too. This news was from many months ago)
the team was able to generate plastics that had varying hardnesses and tensile strengths, all comparable or better than conventional plastics.
Plastics like these can be used in 3D printing as well as medical or health-related applications.
Wide applications and uses, much better than a lot of other proposed solutions. Still good so far.
After dissolving the initial new plastic in salt water, they were able to recover 91% of the hexametaphosphate and 82% of the guanidinium as powders, indicating that recycling is easy and efficient.
Easy to recycle and reclaim material from. Great! Not perfect, but still pretty damn good.
In soil, sheets of the new plastic degraded completely over the course of 10 days, supplying the soil with phosphorous and nitrogen similar to a fertilizer.
You could compost these in your backyard. Who needs the local recycling pickup for plastics when you can just chuck it in a bin in the back? Still looking good.
using polysaccharides that form cross-linked salt bridges with guanidinium monomers.
Polysaccharides are literally carbohydrates found in food.
This is really good. Commonly found compound, easy to actually re-integrate back into the environment. But now the problems start. They don't specify much about the guanidinium monomers in their research in terms of which specific ones are used, so it's hard to say the exact implications, but...
...they appear to often be toxic, sometimes especially to marine life, soil quality, and plant growth, and have been used in medicine with mixed results as to their effectiveness and safety.
I'm a bit disappointed they didn't talk about this more in the articles, to be honest. It seems this would definitely be better than traditional plastic* in terms of its ecological effects, but still *much worse than not dumping it in the ocean at all. In my opinion, in practice it looks like this would simply make the recycling process much more efficient (as mentioned before, a 91% and 82% recovery rate for plastics is much better than the current average of less than 10%) while reducing the overall harm from plastic being dumped in the ocean, even if it's still not good enough to eliminate the harm altogether.
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 2 weeks ago
Aida said the new material is as strong as petroleum-based plastics but breaks down into its original components when exposed to salt.
If this means that it does not break down when exposed to just water, that’s a pretty big deal. Water solubility has been the major issue making biodegradable plastics useless for food packaging (typically you want to either keep the food wet and water in, or dry and water out - either way water permeability is a problem).
Of course most foods also contain salt, so… I guess that’s why the article talks about coatings. If the material has to be coated to keep it from breaking down too fast, what is the point? either the coating will prevent it from breaking down, or it just moves the problem to the coating not breaking down.
ik5pvx@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Food is not the only thing that gets packaged. The worst example that comes to my mind is the way they package microSD cards.
lennivelkant@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
What, you don’t think 1cm² of product should be packaged in a 7×10 cm doubled-up plastic sheet?
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 2 weeks ago
Food is a reasonable target for biodegradable packaging because you don’t really expect the food to sit around for more than a year (for long-term food packaging you just wouldn’t use a biodegradable material).
Packaging products that might have a long shelf life is more problematic. If the material breaks down in saltwater then it will start breaking down if someone picks it up with sweaty or recently washed hands.
marduk@lemmy.sdf.org 2 weeks ago
It’s cool we’ll just slap some PFAS on there and fix 'er right up
Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Plastic coated cardboard containers exist already, and are being widely used for food.
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 2 weeks ago
Well right, and coating them with plastic means that they leave plastic residue behind if they break down in an uncontrolled environment, and increases the cost and complexity of recycling:
If the paper has a plastic or aluminum coating, it can be recycled, but it is much more expensive and complicated.
Some plastic coatings can be separated from paper during the recycling process. Still, it is often cheaper and easier to use virgin materials to create new products than recycling paper coated with plastic.
Paper coated with plastic isn’t suitable for composting, and most times, such products are incinerated for heat or landfilled rather than recycled.
treadful@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
If the material has to be coated to keep it from breaking down too fast, what is the point?
Presumably you could only coat certain faces of the material (like ones touching food). Or maybe the coating could degrade in another more time-known fashion. So if the coating would be expected to last no more then 3 years then after the plastic could start to degrade.
bitwolf@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Does it actually break down? Or does it just melt into a cloud of microplastics?
hperrin@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
You see the thing is, the point of plastic is that it doesn’t dissolve easily. I can see this having some niche applications, but this won’t be replacing most plastics any time soon.
thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
To be fair, this was originally the point of plastic. The primary point of plastic today is that it is an extremely cheap material that you can mould into pretty much any shape.
Need a bag to carry stuff? Plastic.
Packaging for toothpicks? Plastic.
Packaging for clothes? Plastic.
Fake plant. Plastic.
Part of the problem is that we’re using a wonder-material that lasts forever (plastic) for a bunch of mundane shit where we don’t need it, because that wonder-material turns out to be the cheapest material around as well.
hperrin@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Yeah, fair enough. That’s a great point. I will update my opinion of this advancement.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Its specifically sensitive to salt, so you can use it for anything with little or no salt without issue. Also it would be perfect for basically all packaging applications that dont involve food but do require an airtight seal. So you could probably replace the majority of all single use plastic packaging/containers with it.
Deceptichum@quokk.au 2 weeks ago
Well let’s stop putting plastic into seawater and we won’t have to worry about our it dissolving.
floofloof@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Ah but imagine the eager faces of Logitech’s execs when they realize they could make their mice dissolve under your fingers and offer a subscription for replacements.
Timberfang@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
Let’s build a ship out of it.
isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
“Oil tanker spills 60,000 tons of crude into the Pacific after hull biodegrades, more at 6”
rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
And then tow it outside the environment.
propitiouspanda@lemmy.cafe 2 weeks ago
So like, just with PFAS, the properties that make plastic so appealing to be used are also what make it so detrimental to the environment.
The only way to get rid of plastic is to stop valuing its use. We have to look at life differently, which in many ways is the same.
Fizz@lemmy.nz 2 weeks ago
They developed plastic that desolves in seawater in hours. Well if it were that easy they should have started developing that a bit sooner and we wouldnt be in this mess.
Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
So then what can it be used for, other than being decomposed? Doesn’t almost all food contain salt, and human sweat as well? It’s not really useful on earth then, is it? Maybe for unmanned spacecrafts?
Well, the dream material would be some that is stable during use and then immediately falls apart when disposed. But that’s not how things usually work, so anything that decomposes fairly quickly cannot be used to store food for example, as it would just mix with the food. And anything that is stable enough to store food does not decompose in a hundred years or so.
davidgro@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Sounds great for non-food packages, such as small electronics, toys, etc. Anything that currently comes in a blister pack.
Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Depends on how much the salt content in the air at coastal places affect it. But if it doesn’t that much, then sure, sounds good. Of course, also the intermediate products of decomposition should be nontoxic in that case.
floofloof@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
I guess that’s part of the reason they’re exploring coatings - something to slow down the degradation during regular usage.
Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Then you can just used coated cardboard
lennivelkant@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Product packaging for non-foods
SunshineJogger@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
I hope they can tune it to react only to a very specific type of salt water range or else it will not be applicable very often.
And I love this. More if this please
pastermil@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Or we can, you know, have waxed paper?
Also, I thought we’ve already mainstreamed starch-based plastics.
Last but not least, we’ve had cellophane pretty much since the industrial revoltion. The current issue has been the productionlike containing toxic materials, but the end product itself is biodegradable. Perhaps we can improve on that.
leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 2 weeks ago
Good, good, there aren’t enough microplastics in the sea, must dissolve more.
narr1@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
huh. happy to know we’ll never hear from this again! thanks capitalism!
sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
Nice!
procrastitron@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The perfect material for Tesla’s new cyberboat
zergtoshi@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I have a name for that boat: Cybersunk
OwlPaste@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Thats very fitting, I would also accept CyberD (cyber dissolved)
k0e3@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Perfect since he’s being invited to Russia now. They can share their know-how of sinking ships.
altphoto@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Titan 2.0!.. But because we don’t know this materials strengths yet, we’ll add a supportive Styrofoam coating. A generous one.