Another point to add for 9, all the EV parts can be recycled. The metal body is recycled in to new cars and battery components are also recycled in to new batteries.
Relevant technology connections video
Comment on xkcd #3214: Electric Vehicles
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social 1 day ago
As an EV owner, I have recieved an interesting amount of reasons why people won’t buy them:
- The autonomy is not real (so far it’s been in my case and in any case, in italy, for how people drive, the declared consumptions are all fake because people here only drives by pressing the accelerator to the bottom)
- What if there’s a blackout in the whole city and you can’t charge your car? (The whole city, for a long time? I’d be worried about other stuff, but go on…)
- What if all the public plugs are occupied when you want to charge and you find yourself without battery to go to “ork tomorrow? (ALL OF THEM? At the same time? And why are you waiting to charge your car until it reaches 1% charge?)
- What if you come back from a long trip and have a 10% battery remaining and then you recieve an emergency call and have to leave immediately and you can’t because the 50-60km you have in your battery are not enough to reach your destination? (I can get to a quick charge station and get 200km in 15mins or so? The world is not ending? And if it’s THAT urgent then I should be calling an ambulance anyway, because I probably need one)
- I don’t want an automatic car! I love changing my gear! (Thank fuck I got rid of the clutch and the gears… never been happier when I drive!)
- Ah… but the speed, the torque of a thermic sports car… (Dude, you can’t afford a sports car, what the thell are you talking about? And even if I can’t either and I have a pretty average EV, you should just press the accelerator of an EV to the bottom and see for yourself)
- But it’s all about the feeling… the sound… (oh, I get it now… you want to “feel powerful” making everyone look at you and your noise making machine… yeah, I can’t compete there, and I don’t even want to anyway)
- But the electricity is made by burning fuel! (Most of it comes from green sources and, anyway, what the hell do you think your car run on? Water? Are you not very intelligent?)
- But the lithium comes from child labor!! (Says while casually using their iPhone, wearing clothes made in a third world country…)
After this, they usually proceed to make absurd claims like “I don’t care, I just don’t trust EVs.
pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
blauergrashalm@feddit.org 1 day ago
My reason for not buying an EV: it’s still a fucking car. Bit less shit, but still shit.
That should be Number 1 Reason to not buy an EV!
Allero@lemmy.today 1 day ago
Agreed! EVs are certainly superior to ICE cars, but they’re a band aid instead of a solution.
Bring back public transit!
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 22 hours ago
Well yeah if you can avoid it you shouldn’t buy a car, but if you have to buy a car you should buy electric
MalReynolds@slrpnk.net 1 day ago
I mean, technically, an eBike is an Electric Vehicle, and not a fucking car. Otherwise, hard agree.
bstix@feddit.dk 1 day ago
Fuck cars alright, but as long as I’m dependant on a car, my no.1 reason to get an EV is that I hate the oil industry even more. Fuck their oil and money and pollution and fuck their wars and politics.
RampantParanoia2365@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
3.What if all the public plugs are occupied when you want to charge and you find yourself without battery to go to "ork tomorrow?
It sounds crazy, but I’d sit and wait the five minutes, much like I’ve done for pumps on occasion.
bdonvr@thelemmy.club 1 day ago
- Blackout
Eh? What if there’s a gas supply issue? Can’t fuel up. I’ve experienced this after a natural disaster disrupted gas deliveries. Lines for blocks. Days to wait.
purplemonkeymad@programming.dev 1 day ago
Not to mention what if someone does something silly like start a war and push the price of oil up. Solar does not increase in price after it’s made.
Ziglin@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Doesn’t mean they can’t raise it :>
PixTupy@lemmy.ml 1 day ago
With point 2 you can now use a real life case. Last year the Iberian peninsula had a blackout that lasted more than a day. The combustion engine cars could not pump petrol because guess what: pumps need electricity.
Wrrzag@lemmy.ml 1 day ago
- I don’t want an automatic car! I love changing my gear!
This is me. I have a hybrid car and I miss the stick every time I drive it.
AA5B@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
The problem is those days are gone, even without EVs. Between modern automatics more efficient and longer lasting, and cheap reliable CVTs (also more efficient), manual transmissions have no future. I also prefer driving a stick, and frequently complained about limited availability in the US, but technology has passed it by
Ziglin@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
That doesn’t affect how nice it is to drive though, not that I personally would want to touch a clutch pedal.
CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de 22 hours ago
cheap, reliable CVT
I may be out of date but Nissan’s CVTs self destruct very effectively and Subaru’s don’t handle the torque of the H6 so well. They’re still unpleasant to drive.
AA5B@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
My experience across three 2014+ Subarus with CVT has been flawless. Not the H6 though, all flat 4
BastingChemina@slrpnk.net 23 hours ago
I’ve been there, I did manual -> hybrid -> electric.
I did miss the stick when I was driving an hybrid. In the hybrid it felt like was I had to give away some of the control I had on the car by not being able to change gear.
With the EV on the other hand it’s totally different, the car is way more responsive, there is power the moment I press the pedal and the concept of gear disappear.
I don’t miss driving with a stick when driving an EV
bufalo1973@piefed.social 23 hours ago
It’s like in a videogame. Power from the start.
SapientLasagna@lemmy.ca 16 hours ago
If it helps, my EV technically has a manual transmission. 100% of gear shifts are manual (it only has a single reduction gear).
turboSnail@piefed.europe.pub 1 day ago
Here’s a financial argument. The initial purchase price is too high for me, and the depreciation of electric vehicles is also very high. Overall cost of ownership per distance driven is lower if I drive a small gasoline-powered car.
I really don’t want it to be that way, but that’s the reality I have to deal with. Cheaper EVs are coming, but they still aren’t in my price range.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Must be a Europe thing. I ran the numbers in America and avoiding gas cost (vs electric cost per mile) means the car paid for itself after 30k miles. And that’s ignoring that it needs no maintenance.
I thought European gas was expensive. Is the electricity over there also really pricey?
AA5B@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
It depends where you live. We have cheap gas and I live in an area with one of the more expensive prices for electricity (and there are worse), but “filling up” at home is much cheaper than “filling up” my ice car.
However
- yes, we only have expensive EVs here. You can make up an extra $5k of purchase price with money saved on operations, but $10k or more is much harder
- trip chargers are already in a race for exploitation, profit seeking. Except for Tesla, prices are high, maintenance is low, and they compete for trapping customers more than attracting them
- since EVs became political we are currently off balance between supply and demand, so used cars are over supplied and lost much value. The quickly changing technology just makes it worse
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
so used cars are over supplied and lost much value
Perfect time to buy one then
turboSnail@piefed.europe.pub 22 hours ago
Depreciation is a massive slice of the pie in all cars, but EVs are hit even harder. Buying a used EV is probably my best bet in about 5-10 years from now.
exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 hours ago
Depreciation is a massive slice of the pie in all cars, but EVs are hit even harder.
I think that’s a quirk of Tesla trying to preserve market share by aggressively cutting prices of their new models over the past 5 years, which naturally puts pressure on all used models on the road. I don’t think that can last.
If EV manufacturers are racing to compete on price, then the new EVs will get cheaper faster to where EVs are cheaper than ICE vehicles new. And if the EV manufacturers stop cutting prices, then that will alleviate that depreciation pressure.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
TCO is even better for electric. Near zero maintenance. The depreciation is real, but only if you plan to sell it at it’s half life. If you plan to hold it a long time, depreciation evens out.
My EV is ten years old and cost $30k. It’s paid for itself twice over in just gas. More if I factor in the zero maintenance (not totally zero. I changed the tires a few times and had to replace a trunk component). The resale on it is about $8k lower than an equivalent ICE. But for me, the EV was a good deal.
I’d definitely recommend getting a used one though. I bought mine new, and that makes the numbers worse.
SorryQuick@lemmy.ca 19 hours ago
The major complaint I hear is that it takes forever to charge. It’s fine for commuting if you charge at home/work, but sounds a bit rough for road trips and the likes.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 hours ago
Depending on the car and budget: It totally is.
At work we have a VW eUP.
Charges at a snail pace (¼ = 60-90ish km at 2-3h).Yes it’s fine most of the time but if we swap it between on-site visits one really has to wait or risk not coming home (and don’t get me started on the landmine of charging infrastructure).
German news about the whole infrastructure: youtu.be/GQ2hbLzfQ54
TLDW: Close a contract with one provider (e.g. your supplier at home), pay tripple the amount because that charging station is from another provider. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social 19 hours ago
Most cars come with fast charge in DC. You can add a good amount of range in like 15-20 minutes. The ones not coming with fast charge are mostly city cars that don’t need it anyways.
trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 1 day ago
My reason: the hybrid I have is still working fine and a new car and a new car won’t be in my budget for the next 10 years or so. Also iirc about 33% of the energy a typical car will ever use is spend on its production, so it’s better for the environment to use a car until it breaks down.
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social 1 day ago
that’s completely fine. If your car works, you shouldn’t throw it away, that is wasteful.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net 1 day ago
Depends on the car. Waste of resources sure, but it can reduce emissions depending on the car
Successful_Try543@feddit.org 1 day ago
Unless their car is scrapped, this only results in another car being on the road.
Jolteon@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
My argument: When I can get a decent used EV for $5k, I’ll do it. Until then, I’ll just get a decent used ICE car for $5K.
AA5B@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
I always thought this was one of the reasons for an EV incentive. Encourage more people like me to buy the expensive ones to develop the market, guaranteed demand for manufacturers, but that also gets us faster to the point of cheap used EVs
Successful_Try543@feddit.org 1 day ago
- What if there’s a blackout in the whole city and you can’t charge your car?
They couldn’t refuel their ice car either or how do they think the fuel is made to flow “uphill” from the tank in the ground into their car.
Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
2: I wonder what those people think a gas pump runs on?
If there is no electricity, then those won’t pump either.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net 1 day ago
For a lot of people it’s number 7 and I mean, that’s sad
1 is real though, and it can be a pain
There’s also the case where some areas are isolated and there’s no charger nearby and that can be a pain, and yea, that’s not a good spot to be in
Finally, if you can’t charge at home, you’re not really going to save on electricity price compared to fuel, so that’s not the best purchase, and it might be a pain to charge frequently outside if you have an cheap car that charges slowly
bufalo1973@piefed.social 23 hours ago
In the worst case scenario, charging is almost the same price for the same distance. In the best case (at home) is 10x cheaper.
Electricd@lemmybefree.net 2 hours ago
This might actually be true, I think I misremember my calculations but I know I compared it some time ago, and realized it was way cheaper at home, and comparing the prices I pay outside and those, it might very well be the case
MousePotatoDoesStuff@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I wonder how many of those would not apply to hybrid cars.
Also, for 8: Making car go by burning fuel in a big optimised plant is likely more efficient than doing it in an engine that has to fit inside the car.
fartographer@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
To point 5: there are companies that sell electric crate motors, pre-configured to couple with your transmission’s bell housing. Hell, some of these companies sell the entire conversation kit, or will do the entire conversation for you. These conversions give you a completely offline electric car that keeps an older car from going to a junkyard, and reduces the materials needed for an updated car on the road. Also, if someone is concerned that a new electric car has the same carbon footprint as an internal combustion vehicle, recycled and reclaimed batteries are an incredible option.
If you’re going to do one of these conversions on a standard transmission car, you’ll probably want to pay some professionals anyway to tune it so that you don’t shred your clutch when you shift. I almost did this with my old '95 Explorer, but it had some suspension issues that I wasn’t willing to tackle at the same time. Plus, my neighbor told me that one of his friends had their car destroyed in a flood, but talked about how they always wanted a classic Explorer in exactly my color, so I gave it to her.
Ziglin@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I feel like some of those points are slightly more valid in rural areas (especially in the US, where a power pole being knocked over means that the power is out for hours) where the people making those points are more likely to have grown up. Then again if you are not in a rural point of the united states you are less likely to need a car.
llii@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
If I lived in rural US where the power is not guaranteed I would install PV and use my car as a power backup.
Ziglin@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That sounds rather expensive (if PV is photovoltaic). And I was not aware that cars were built to supply power like that.
llii@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
Yeah, I meant photovoltaic with PV. At least in Europe it’s gotten really cheap. There are mutiple ways to use the energy that is stored in electric cards. There’s “Vehicle to Load” (V2L) for plugging appliances directly into the car, “Vehicle to Home” (V2H) for connecting your home to the car and “Vehicle to grid” for connecting the car to the power grid and selling the stored energy. “Vehicle to load” is also useful when going camping or when you need power when there’s no outlet near you. You just need a car that supports it and a small adapter.
Tja@programming.dev 1 day ago
Very much similar to my own experience. The blackout is the funniest, because gas stations don’t work in a blackout, while solar panels do (assuming you disconnect them from the grid).
I would add one:
AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@piefed.social 1 day ago
Oh, yeah! I forgot that one!
When you ask them how many times they found themselves with a thermic car doing 1000km without stopping they usually tell you: never, but what if I had to?
Bitch, if you need to do 1000km without stopping, you should be taking a train or a plane. Driving 10-12 hours without a single stop is bad and dangerous.
jqubed@lemmy.world 1 day ago
This was something I realized when we drive to my wife’s parents. It’s 2,000 km each way from our house in the US to where they are in rural Quebec, Canada and we usually drive it twice a year. The charging times sound long, but even with our petrol car most of our stops end up being between 15 to 30 minutes anyways between fueling the car, taking the dog to grass, taking turns going to the toilet so the dog isn’t alone in the car, getting food and giving me a chance to eat so I’m not trying to drive and eat at the same time.
I think the real challenge of electric range anxiety is that it still takes planning, at least in some parts of the US. There are areas on our route where it might be 100 kilometers to the next fast charger, and there’s no guarantee that all of them will be working or compatible with a car’s fastest charging speeds. We don’t really have to think about where we’ll get gasoline; there’s pretty much always a station, often several, within the next few miles. Usually if we’re waiting to stop for fuel it’s because we’re looking for the best price, looking for a place that might have decent toilets, and/or might have an appealing food option along with the gasoline. That’s all manageable in electric but might need some advanced planning, and many American drivers aren’t used to doing that kind of route planning in advance anymore.
How many cars in Europe can drive 1,000 km without stopping anyways? The only ones I can think of offhand are large American pickup trucks intended for towing large trailers long distances. I wouldn’t expect to see them in Europe.
bufalo1973@piefed.social 23 hours ago
Any diesel can drive more than 1000 km with a full deposit. But laws forbid in some countries to drive more than 2 hours or 300 km without stopping.
OddMinus1@sh.itjust.works 14 hours ago
My father in-law uses that added argument all the time. Who the hell needs to drive for 10 hours straight without taking a 30 minute break.
elvith@feddit.org 1 day ago
The only somewhat valid use case for “driving 1.000km without a stop” would be several people in the car taking turns on the driver’s seat. While you’d technically need to stop to switch drivers this in itself is way quicker than even a quick charge on paper.
BUT: considering traffic jams, speed limits and such - a 1.000km trip would take around 10+ hours anyway. You’re not going to tell me that you do not even stop to pee or stretch a bit for 10+ hours, do you?
ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
While growing up my family once a year would take a 20 hour car trip to visit extended family for a couple weeks then 20 hours back. Parents would do five hour shifts and get the whole thing done in one go. Shift changes meant refuel, bathroom, that’s it. Other than that there was no stopping unless it was a “the next bump in the road I will 100% shit myself” kind of an emergency
Now personally I’d argue maybe we shouldn’t have been taking road trips in that manner because it’s like putting your body through a meat grinder. But if trips like that are someone’s goal I doubt there are many charging stations in the middle of absolutely nowhere that can fully charge an EV in the time it takes to pee. I’m hoping though maybe a shift to EVs will change the way people approach long road trips to actually force them to take breaks
AA5B@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
It takes just one small change …. My family did similar, but those stops were planned for mealtimes. We either did fast food or brought a camping stove, but always ate outside the car. Kids were encouraged to “run down to the end of that path with the dog”. Anyhow, the presence of even a fast food meal meant that there would have been plenty of time to charge.
Demdaru@lemmy.world 1 day ago
…do US statioms not have their own generators?
Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
How are you going to fill those generators if the pump has no power?
Checkmate atheists
Tja@programming.dev 19 hours ago
No idea about the US, but not in Europe. It was a major problem with the last blackout in Spain and Portugal.
Demdaru@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
I am asking because I worked in gas station in Poland and we had backup generator. xD