I grew up starting my computer use having to navigate DOS just before windows 3.11 was released. I work in tech today and I feel like just knowing about a lot of the automated things we take for granted today has given me a little bit of an edge.
Comment on Lemmy is a tech literate echo chamber
carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 5 days ago
The average person is becoming MORE technologically illiterate, not less. The era of growing up with a home computer that required fiddling and dial up, etc is over. People grow up with phones and iPads and kids come to school not knowing how to use a mouse.
NikolaTeslasPigeon@lemmy.world 5 days ago
griff@lemmings.world 5 days ago
I had to walk to school in the snow ten miles, both ways uphill!
PriorityMotif@lemmy.world 5 days ago
I used to have to book computer time at the library and walk to said library so I could play Oregon trail on an apple iie
bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 5 days ago
In DOS time I learned how to type quickle because I had to type in
cd gamescd keenkeenas quickly as possible to minimise non-gaming time.SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 days ago
That’s why you install Automenu
HubertManne@piefed.social 5 days ago
I feel the same about things like irq. Useless but I feel knowing how they worked makes you closer to the hardware.
treadful@lemmy.zip 5 days ago
Hate to say it, but that technical literacy from having to operate computers the difficult way was a small blip in history. So things are just kind of going back to “normal.”
The only real natural entry into “computing” is gaming. Pretty much everything else has to come through formal education, which is largely myopic and boring.
Don’t think I’ve even worked with a gen Z engineer yet. I assume they exist.
Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 5 days ago
I have worked with a few gen z interns/fresh grads, and some younger millennials (I am a 1990 kid) and its interesting… Some of them have been very successful at passing the tests but have no mechanical aptitude at all. Some have been technically literate on first glance, then proven to be just confidently incorrect. In general though, it seems they just didn’t grow up being interested in how things worked like I did. It could be isolated to my small sample size or it could be a general trend. They also don’t seem to make connections scross disciplines as easily either but again, that could just be a time in service thing at this point and not a generational trait.
I have not been super impressed with the new ones we get when we get them, some of them have been quick learners though and have impressed me with their adaptability. I am a huge proponent of proper mentorships or rotational programs and that is something that seems to get overlooked with younger grads in my experience.
One thing that really annoys me though, is that when prompted with something they don’t know, they will spit out some randome bullshit rather than say they don’t know. Saying I don’t know is a completly acceptable answer as long as it is followed up with “but I will find out” or “can you help/explain it”. Falling back to a first principle approach and talking through it is also valid but just making up some shit doesnt fly with me.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
is that when prompted with something they don’t know, they will spit out some randome bullshit rather than say they don’t know
This is just the majority of people, not specific to any generation. Our minds are predisposed to use inductive reasoning to explain the world around us. We see something new and our brain immediately begins to make inferences based on prior information we believe we know (I say it this way cause our memories are incredibly faulty) that we think is relevant or comparable.
It’s essentially the Dunning Kruger effect: we think we know more than we do and, because of this, believe we can simply assume correctly about other things we know nothing about.
It’s an incredibly bad habit that is supposed to be trained out of us through our education systems but we all know how incredibly faulty those systems are.
Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 5 days ago
The education system as I lived through it in Texas was actively hostile to saying you didn’t know, it was treated as being worse than being wrong or guessing. You can tell by the results allllllll around us.
Nangijala@feddit.dk 4 days ago
I work in a completely different field, but you last paragraph mostly sounds to me like a typical young person entering the job market. There is this false sense og confidence, pride and know it all when graduating. I’ve just seen it a few too many times and I remember how confident and skilled I thought I was when I got out. At the same time, there’s some anxiety and fear of doing a bad job and admitting fault may make you seem weak or unskilled and you want to impress the mentors and blah blah blah.
It is a bit funny to remember how I thought I was going to be helpful to colleagues who were way more experienced than me and then years later I’m being talked at by soon to be graduates who are trying to be helpful by sharing tips with me that I already do on the daily or don’t do because I learned years ago they don’t work. And when I try to give them advice or instructions it’s like they just space out and hear what they think I mean and then do something completely different from what I ask of them, haha. I can’t be mad at it, because it’s just a part of learning and growing into your career. I think it would be a mistake to think that a newly graduated person in any field will be able to hit the ground running without any hiccups.
Maybe I’m just a bit of a softie when it comes to young people, but I just remember how eager I was when I was in their shoes and how incorrect my assumptions were when it came to what my elders expected of me. It all came gradually as I learned how to be a professional and how to solve tasks and find my rhythm. I imagine new generations on the market can’t be much different from myself in that regard. 😊
ech@lemmy.ca 5 days ago
Back to what, exactly? At what point in the past was it easier to use a computer than it was in the late 90s? Unless you’re talking about before computers, which doesn’t really have any bearing on what’s being discussed.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
I’m assuming they mean “Normal” as in “the general public being completely oblivious to the inner workings of the things they utilize in their daily lives”, not “people going back to having an easier time with tech”.
Rawrosaurus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 days ago
I’m not entirely sure that is “normal” though. We don’t have to go back very far to reach a point where people would be making their own tools for their craft. I think this modern day is pretty abnormal in the grand scheme about not knowing how the things used actually work or is put together.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 days ago
They exist. They are capable of being smart and curious, but they’re less inherently familiar with the “bleep bloops” as we are.
cole@lemdro.id 5 days ago
I work with a lot of gen z engineers that are very competent
freebee@sh.itjust.works 5 days ago
There’s still a second natural entry, it is being critical and annoyed by corporate greed in apps, streaming services, ads, accounts for everything etc. The privacy/piracy entry.
cryptTurtle@piefed.social 5 days ago
So a friend of mine went to a convention to show off his gaming project. The kids there were trying to touch the monitors to play the game. They didn't grab the keyboard and mouse. They didn't touch the controller. They touched the monitor. People's framework of what a computer is and what it's made of is completely different than what it use to be
BagOfHeavyStones@piefed.social 5 days ago
Reminds me of my senior teaching days 15 years ago. Solitaire, same.exe and saddam.exe and whack.exe soon had those oldies clicking, double clicking and dragging.
Didn't think then that the situation could reverse.
Same still exists on Android and is still a brain twister.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.kubilayerdogan.samegamel
mycodesucks@lemmy.world 5 days ago
You are absolutely right, but let’s be clear here… it’s not so much the lack of keyboard and mouse that’s the problem… it’s that these touchscreen devices don’t let you actually DO anything. The devices you can use a keyboard and mouse on ALLOW you to play, customize, make mistakes, and learn. There’s no reason a touchscreen device couldn’t provide that too, but iOS and Android specifically forbid you from learning anything - that’s a recipe for security holes! And THAT’s the real skill they lack. Real competence means bending the endless possibilities to your will - not just being given 5 of the most common ones and being locked out of the rest.
lechekaflan@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Why there now exists “iPad Kid”.
That a friend I know of has a lot of his kids entirely on smartphones, while their family PC is hidden behind cobwebs and dust; if they want a document printed they just go out to some print shop.
EnsignWashout@startrek.website 5 days ago
if they want a document printed they just go out to some print shop.
In fairness, it can be expensive to stock the holy water necessary to fend off the demons that inhabit all printers.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 days ago
The average person is becoming MORE technologically illiterate, not less.
There’s simply no evidence of this
What’s more, the prevalence of cheap, accessible technologies is having a host of knock-on effects. Case in point:
People grow up with phones and iPads and kids come to school not knowing how to use a mouse.
Feels like I’m listening to the Boomer complaining about kids today not knowing how to use a manual transmission.
chickenf622@sh.itjust.works 5 days ago
I wouldn’t say that data is definitive proof. The table is missing ages from 30-under 65 from the table (at least if you’re not logged in, if there is a more complete table please share). Also not sure how good some of the questions are for determining tech literacy. Knowing that Elon Musk ran both Tesla and Twitter in April 2023 is more if you keep up with the news rather than knowing how to work a computer. Other ones are good like being able to identify 2FA or knowing what LLM/AI is capable of.
carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 5 days ago
My wife is a teacher. Kids come to school without the ability to use keyboard and mouse which was not the case in the 90s. I also only drive manual :P
faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 5 days ago
Bullshit, I went to school in the 90s, and half my class had never seen a computer before. I’m surprised you don’t remember how many kids struggled with Mavis Beacon.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 days ago
It’s always different when it’s your generation. The fact that “keyboard class” was stuffed with Millennials in Freshman year of high school isn’t an indictment of kids’ keyboarding skills.
Only the Gen Z/A cohort has problems.
HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 5 days ago
Feels like I’m listening to the Boomer complaining about kids today not knowing how to use a manual transmission.
There have been some articles regarding beginning CS classes bring required to include teaching concepts like folder structures because a sizeable part of class was list on this concept.
To use your transmission analogy, it would be like truck driving schools now need to how to drive a manual transmission vehicle, which adds to the length of the class. Or all the company vehicles are manual and now the company has to deal with hiring new drivers who don’t know how to drive stick but will say they know how to drive.
tomenzgg@midwest.social 5 days ago
new drivers who don’t know how to drive stick but will say they know how to drive.
That’s how my great-grandpa got his first job, truck driving; might’ve been the first time he drove in general, automatic or stick.
masterspace@lemmy.ca 5 days ago
LMFAO, bruh, your categories are 18-29, and 65+.
Your Source literally entirely skips over the age group we’re talking about. You’re not proving strong literacy skills of any kind atm.
SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 5 days ago
Imagine studying at uni for years to become a programmer, only to be replaced by a vibe coder with an iPhone.
masterspace@lemmy.ca 5 days ago
We all imagine that, is has yet to happen. Vibe coders can produce the spaghetti code of upwards of 10 unpaid interns! What value!
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 5 days ago
AI=ALWAYS indian in the end.
Siegfried@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Wait, does that mean that we millennials are actually going to be remembered for something good ?^*
We better find a cool name… the golden generation of tech? The tech overlords?
^* obviously this isnt my opinion
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 days ago
And once again, Gen X is completely ignored
Siegfried@lemmy.world 5 days ago
You have to break the realty market of you want to stop being ignored. Sorry, not sorry 💁♂️.
Gen Xs that got into tech are tech gods, the thing is, due to low tech availability, they aren’t very common in my country.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Well, at least you finally acknowledged that I’m a god.
fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 5 days ago
Exactly. Exposure to technology does not make you tech literate. Tech literate typically means engaged with new technologies.
For instance, people were using phones, fax machines, calculators, watches, etc when dial up came out. Those users were not considered tech literate.
The same happens today, an iPhone or Android user is not tech literate by default anymore.
Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 5 days ago
i also notice they fall for the simplest scams too online,
Fleur_@aussie.zone 5 days ago
Ehhh maybe true for the US where they had a solid early tech industry and then made some questionable decisions. I feel like in the rest of the world progress is steady but forwards. Generally young stem university students where I live have all done a programming unit and a technology unit and each year more is added to curriculums whereas older generations might not have been given quite such an extensive education.
carl_dungeon@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Thafuq?
BassTurd@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Yea, young STEM university students are obviously going to be more technologically literate than their counter parts. That isn’t a new thing and was true for the older generations too.
What questionable decisions are you talking about that the US made that you’re insinuating set them back compared to the rest of the world? The US does have more tech classes now than when I was in school in the early 2000’s. The problem is a vast majority of these kids coming up don’t know how to use computers effectively. It’s not just “using a mouse” that makes someone tech literate. Knowing how to navigate a mobile device, which is designed for ease of use to accommodate even the dumbest people, does not make someone tech literate. Some are power users, but most have nothing more than a surface level knowledge of how to use it. There’s little to no troubleshooting skills.
All of those mobile devices are programmed by actual tech literate people that understand coding, the network stack, security, and the general inner workings of how computers work. This generation coming out now doesn’t know any of that because they never use computers.
And lastly, holy fuck what’s wrong with you? Jesus fucking Christ you just came out shooting in that second half. The person you replied to made a valid, factual point, and you apparently took that as a personal attack. What the fuck do trans people have to do with this? What a fucked up transition to make and shit to take. You need help, dude.
Fleur_@aussie.zone 5 days ago
The person I replied to said “average person is becoming MORE technologically illiterate” and his source is “kids come to school not knowing how to use a mouse.” Yet in the same sentence acknowledges “People grow up with phones and iPads.”
Yeah wow, kids don’t know how to use a mouse because they’ve never used one before. Truly society is regressing. Kids get taught how to use scissors. It’s just juvenoia.
Young people are more interested in technology then ever before. There are more people with computers, more people using computers daily and longer collective hours spent digitally then ever before.
But yeah tech literacy is down guys trust. these kids can’t even troubleshoot a fax machine. Just read the multiple studies that prove my point that I haven’t linked but I’ve definitely read guys trust.
BassTurd@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Not knowing how to use a mouse is hyperbole for not knowing how to use a computer, but also, if you can’t use a mouse, you can’t use a workstation computer. Knowing how to navigate a mobile device does not make someone tech literate. In general it stunts computer skills, because there’s minimal tech knowledge required to download an app from a curated store or watching tik tok.
You’re proving our point in the second paragraph. Yea, kids aren’t being taught computer skills. Not knowing the fundamentals of how to use a workstation is a problem and it is causing a regression in technological literacy in society.
Young people tend to be more interested in phone and tablets than ever before. Some for sure are into workstations, but that is not the norm. Id argue less kids percentage wise are spending time on computers daily than 15-20 years ago. Everything is done on iPads or phones in schools, until college. Even if you didn’t want to, back in the day you had to know how to navigate a complex operating system, save files to removable storage, download files and install them, and a plethora of other seemingly simple skills, and that’s not happening now.
If you work in IT or around youth entering the workforce, it’s extremely clear that tech literacy is worse now than it was a decade ago, or at least it is as a millennial that bridged that gap and can clearly see the difference. I can see if someone is younger than millennials why they wouldn’t be able to see that difference, because they are in that demographic.
It would take 5 seconds to do a Google search for millennials and technology and find a couple studies on the topic. It isn’t some secret that’s being hidden and it’s easily accessible. Perhaps your inability to find these studies is the proof that tech literacy has degraded.
Jankatarch@lemmy.world 5 days ago
One time I said "Hey this TUI program works perfect on every single distribution and even BSDs, takes no performance issues ever, and just overall good program.
I wanna check contributors on github. It was all either anime or trans flag pfps.
vivalapivo@lemmy.today 5 days ago
Soon the era of hosting own VPN and tricking AI will start
DonutsRMeh@lemmy.world 5 days ago
And for that reason alone I built a Linux PC for my 11 year old and told him to go to town figuring things out. (I supervise everything of course). Dude has been doing fantastic so far.
Windex007@lemmy.world 5 days ago
If he doesn’t solve problems with chmod 777 then he’s already more competent than the ops teams at my fortune 500 company
pivot_root@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Who’s going to win?
SELinux+Seccomp+Containers…
Or the sysadmin with sudo and chmod.
Neither! It’s whichever script kiddie that gets lucky first.
TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip 5 days ago
Oh, but you gotta drop a chmod nuke at least once to feel the terror having done something irreversible. As a bonus, you’ll also gain a brand new appreciation for snapshots.
lars@lemmy.sdf.org 5 days ago
sudo chmod 000 /for securitybigfondue@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Cool. I’m old enough that in middle school I begged my Mom to take to the mall to buy Linux. I got Red Hat Linux from a store called Babbage’s.
baggachipz@sh.itjust.works 5 days ago
I used to love going to Babbage’s in the mall. So many King’s Quest boxes….
Fetus@lemmy.world 5 days ago
Damn, that’s a good hit of nostalgia!
HubertManne@piefed.social 5 days ago
oh man, Babbages. Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time. A long time.